An Invitation To Describe Your Online Dating Experiences
Moxie over at And That’s Why You’re Single posted about what not to say to women on OKCupid (link below). Unfortunately, she wrote the whole post at Role Reboot – the worst of the worst when it comes to politically correct dating and relationship advice. No direct link from me because it’s that bad.
The comments from men complaining about online dating quickly accumulated. Moxie was not amused and was quite clear about it.
Yeah, this isn’t going to be an excuse for guys to flock here and whine about how hard online dating is for them. Sorry. I’m sick of listening to it.
It’s her blog so she gets to make the rules. However, this becomes an opportunity for me. I am inviting men who are doing online dating to report their online dating experiences, positive or negative.
This is not for the purpose of random venting. It is for the purpose of seeing patterns and generalizations so we can work towards solutions. Online dating for men at any age is a frustrating experience. I empathize because I did online dating off and on for over a decade. Towards the end, my ratio of outgoing messages to actual dates was 100 to 1.
For the record, I most recently used Plenty of Fish. I still maintain a profile but haven’t logged in in months. It’s now recommended to men that they keep their online dating activities limited to about 25% of their overall dating activities (link below).
So guys, use the comments to share your online dating experiences. Please indicate the following:
- Your age
- Your location
- Online Dating Websites you use
What Not To Say To Women on OKCupid
Kansas City Area
I had some crazy experiences that just about sent me packing. I have 4 kids and am very involved in their daily lives and have them every other week. I finally wrote a better profile, and made it clear that I would not be sending out tons of messages to women, so if they wanted my attention, then they better do something more than just browse my profile, and that if they wanted a response they better have a profile worth looking at and reading. I went from a couple messages a week to 10-20 per day. I met 3 solid women to date quickly, and remain friends with one, talk to the other periodically, and have moved in with the third. I had met a number of other women before these three and the quality was much higher than the throwing darts at a bunch of pictures on the screen I had been doing before. As for guys shopping for sex, the bars seem a lot easier to get that. Too much work to meet someone in the real world through online dating.
I wonder if putting your foot down about spending time with your kids goes over better with women wanting a LTR than it does women who blather on about their kids in their profiles. In other words, does being a full-time single father with little time mean more than being a full-time single mother with equally little time.
Also, did you blather on about your kids in your profile?
I did not blather about them. Just made it clear that I was involved and that took time. Most women thought it was a good thing until the reality of it struck them. I actually meant it. It did not go over well for long with women who basically swapped motherhood and single life every other few days and weekends. It went very well with single mothers who are doing it alone and did not toss the dad out of their life, but he chose to leave or she was a young widow. The more kid talk I found in a woman’s profile, the less interested she was in my life with my kids.
Interesting, and not really surprising.
One of the women friends I have from OKC is a newly-divorced single mom. She realized that she and her ex worked better together NOT married, and both are involved in their daughter’s life much more actively then they were when they were married.
I told this woman some time ago two main things. First, that, in her dating profile, she mention she has a daughter and little else about that. State the fact and don’t embellish it, and certainly don’t come across as someone who “puts my kid first” or who’s spending every waking hour with her. Both of those, I told her, will send most guys running for the hills.
Secondly, if she’s looking for more stable guys, then she should target single dads because there would be more in common with them instead of the single guys, some of whom are 20-somethings with “issues” and who are looking to get with “older” women because they want the feather in their caps and/or because they’re probably tired of their similar-aged princesses and drama queens. Single parents, I’m assuming, would understand other single parents, and can make arrangements accordingly. But, with the caveat that neither parent drone on about their exes.
I forgot to mention, I was sending out at least 20 messages a day trying to play the numbers game before I changed the profile, and was getting only about 1/100 in responses.
Location: Washington, DC metro area
Sites: OKC, Match.com, and Howaboutwe.com
When I moved here to DC nearly three years ago, I started using OKC regularly and had mixed results from it. I didn’t have too, too many problems getting dates — and a couple of lays — from the site. I also dated three women who I’m good friends with because both they and I decided that there was enough there to foster a friendship instead of a dating relationship.
I found OKC to be fine for quick messaging and quick dating-setting-upping, but that was about it. Over time, it was more labor-intensive to use and nerve-wracking dealing with DC-area chicks, many of whom fit the Roosh/Roissy category of “typical Americhick.” Many messages, few responses. As I targeted women in the 27-40 age range, there were few flakes, but a respectable number of “there’s no chemistry” emails.
With Match.com, results were a little better because it’s a paid site, but that didn’t reduce the number of delusional over-30s holding out for that “special someone.” (Yeah, right.) Better quality because it’s a paid site.
Howaboutwe.com proved interesting because it’s a bit of a niche site and more appropriate for side efforts (as are all dating sites, FYI). Either your or the chick proposes an activity on the site in your ad, and then you can proceed on the original idea or counter it with something better. I found that it significantly reduced the time (and bullshit) involved in setting up an activity for the first date. Not surprisingly, most of the chicks on there choose activities that involve food, drink, or something else you (yes, YOU, the dude) have to pay for. So, it pays (pardon the pun), if you choose something that involves a very low cost, like a walk in the park. As I said: niche, quick, and minimizing bullshit. Of course, as with OKC and Match, you still would have to put on the monkey dance to get to the second date.
Lastly, my age and looks didn’t seem to work against me in most cases as I managed to get a fair number of dates, a few of which turned into mini-relationships lasting a few months.
Similar to yours. Before i finally dropped my hyper-truthy, ultra filter bomb profile (which took up the character limit for Plenty of Fish profiles) my regular profiles (which i updated every few months) got me the same 100 to 1 conversion rate.
I have a feeling that some of the women i conversed with actually found my blog which iwhy they stopped talking to me after a while (had to expect some fallout). But mostly women being silent.. and we’re not talking about copy/paste routine, but generally:
-matching up in shared interests/values/things to discuss
-filtering out the wild party child/bimbo stereotypes and looking for women who i would most likely click with
Pure silence for the most part. And when i did get responses, they were painful to tip toe around the naked solipsism that permeated.
And i had to deal with women like this…
Ultimately i decided to write out the most honest profile ever.. that got me more replies AND unsolicited responses from women, even those who messaged me just to say they commended my stance even if they didn’t agree with it or thought we had anything in common.
I may just have to create a post based on that profile. One thing is for sure, it helped solidify that i was a man who knew exactly what i wanted.
After 2+ years from my separation to my ex wife, i can finally say im off PoF with a serious red pill ready woman who understands biological realities, yearns to be the feminine and allows me to be the masculine (she wants a ‘manly man, in lumberjack plaid’ lol), and is receptive to my slow drip of red pill wisdom, to complement her life experiences and make the pieces of her puzzle fit.
2 painful years of dealing with a lot of silence, a ton of carefully crafted messages, and attempted initiations based on more than just ‘hey yo, was up’. 2 years of dealing with angry little girls who’d stop conversations on a heartbeat with no explanation, or get butthurt and call me an idiot or a misogynist or gross or someone who had to trick women because i had the audacity to mention that ‘The Game’ was part of my book collection. 2 painful years of OKC and POF seeing so many profiles of women pretty much asking to be rescued from themselves.. complaining about the wolves they eagerly laid down with.
I’m glad to be out of those toxic waters.
“Seeing so many profiles of women pretty much asking to be rescued from themselves.. complaining about the wolves they eagerly laid down with.”
Right on. My experience to a T. Plus the eventual rejection when I show myself to NOT be one of those wolves.
My experience on OKCupid was bad. The questions seemed to lead to some bizaar matches that I just wasn’t interested in. All of them have an abundance of women with no other options. Often over weight or not as young as they claim. I got up from multiple dates once I found out they had lied about key parts of their profile.
Details i left out of my screed.
Location: Toronto, ON. Canada (the coldest city in the world, ask Roosh)
Sites: OKC, POF
Ave. 15-20 messages per session, 2-4 times a week, usually when bored or downtime at work.
Pingback: An Invitation To Describe Your Online Dating Experiences | Viva La Manosphere!
Age: old as dirt. JK. 45
Sites: match, fitness singles and a Czech site.
The online approach is small percentage and purely passive. I started it after the break up with the BPD Psych Nurse, what a combination. And when I do send out blasts, I’d rather size up their narrative and screen out the “I am careerist, finally
ready to settle down, worked hard to get where I am, me…me…me, will not settle”
So, I have had luck and pull dates out of both sites. Currently engaging a few and setting up a few for the weekend.
I’d rather play to my strengths as a conversationalist run day game like Krauser.
Surprisingly, I am talking to a Czech (as seen by photo’s only) HB 9 with noticeable feminine frame and mindset. Lives in Prague and travels to the USA a bit for the job and speaks fluent English.
How goes the daygame up in Bmore? If I remember correctly, Roosh gave it a thumbs-down, but slightly higher than DC.
I have a confession to make. I am separated and not yet divorced. I was curious about the whole online dating thing so I created a profile. The profile was completely me including a brutally honest section about my love of sex. I stated I only wanted sex within a relationship but that within that relationship I expected to be wild. I lifted pictures from some guy in another area of the country who I thought was on par with my level of attractiveness(probably a bit better looking back). I was amazed at the responses I got. After being married for 21 years I had no idea. In my talks I was straight forward about my love of porn and such without being graphic or anything. Another approach I used was “you are too sweet, I would corrupt you.” I was amazed at how often they would fall all over themselves about how bad they were. I had read a lot of red pill stuff but it is now finally sinking in. For the longest time I believed the lie that women were somehow morally superior to men but not any more.
Oh, another thing that astonished me, which should not have, was the number of women who put off putting statements in their profile such as “you will have to keep me entertained, I need a lot of excitement”. Yikes. Sounds like they could use some date training classes or something. Know anyone offering such a thing? You go PM!
I’ve been doing the online dating for about 2-3 years in my late 20s, using OKC, PoF, and a paid, niche Christian site. I check about once a week (with e-mail alerts to respond to messages). I message mostly girls in the 18-25 age range, short personalized messages to targeted/seemingly compatible girls (no spamming). I get a message back about 1/5 times.
My profiles are pretty straight-forward. I say I’m looking for a traditional Christian wife, have a good job and a house, talk about some of my hobbies; make a joke or two. Nothing special. I’ve been meaning to go over them with the advice you’ve provided previously but never got around to it.
I’ve had about a 8-12 or so good online conversations that almost went somewhere. Got three phone numbers that never led to dates. Had a few girls who agreed to dates in principle, but then flaked. A few of the conversations seemed like they were going well, then I just stopped receiving replies.
I’ve found I have better success the younger the girl is. Girls above 22 rarely respond, while 18-19-year-olds have the highest rate of response. Out of the good conversations, all of them were under 22; all the girls I got numbers from or who accepted dates (then flaked) were 18-19. I don’t really understand why this is. (I find a similar pattern IRL, I get better responses from younger girls).
I’ve never had a nasty reply to any of my messages.
I get messaged maybe once every month or two. Almost always by someone either older than me and/or fat. At first I would respond, be polite, then kindly reject them, but then one went crazy and unloaded two huge messages filled with far too much desperation and personal information, so I stopped responding to these women.
I had one women a few weeks ago who messaged me out of the blue and more or less offered casual sex. I didn’t respond. I assumed it was spam (although, she put a decent amount of work into her profile), but wasn’t interested anyway.
As for the sites:
I’ve got almost nothing from PoF despite it having the highest number of women within the parameters I’m looking for. Usually there’s a few girls a week, but they rarely respond. Only ever had one decent conversation. I think most of the girls either get overwhelmed with messages or are simply attention-whoring.
OKC has been the most fruitful. It has about 3-5 new girls of my type a month and a decent rate of response; most of my more successful interactions have come from there.
The Christian site only has one, maybe two, new girls of my type come on a month, but has a higher rate of response, higher rate of good conversations, and two of the three phone numbers came from that site.
I tried EHarmony once; after I answered their little quiz, it told me no one matched in my area. I occasionally (once a year) log back in only to get the same message and it won’t let me redo the quiz, even though what I’m looking for has changed these last few years. At least, they didn’t charge me.
I’ve considered dumping online dating due to the complete lack of success, but the costs are minimal and I figure it just has to work once for me to find a wife. (Lightning can’t strike if I’m not outside). I’ve also considered just dumping PoF because it eats up the most time with the least amount of success, but it get almost double the girls of both other sites combined (hence why it uses more time), so I’m hesitant to nix that pool.
I think if I was in a larger city or a “more Christian” area (like the American south), the paid Christian site would be very effective, but being in a smaller city that’s rather secular, it simply doesn’t have the numbers required for success.
Correction: I did actually get one “date” from OKC. It was before I started on the manosphere. Some random girl who I had no compatibility with IM’d me asking if I wanted to go for supper. I said sure; I wasn’t all that interested, but I wanted the dating practice. I picked her up and took her for sushi. It was very awkward (ie: she talked about her irritable bowel syndrome on the ride to the restaurant). Her picture was a “Myspace view” pic which made her look like a kinda cute 6 (20 years old), but in reality she was an overweight 4.
We ate, had awkward conversation, I paid the $50 bill (most I’ve ever paid at a restaurant), I dropped her off, never contacted her again. In retrospect, I think I was simply used for the meal.
Totally used! The IBS talk was strategic on her part.
Yep, you were used.
Follow the Tom Leykis rule: no more than $40 on a date, free if you can swing it.
Next time a chick does that to you, suggest that you get it to go — or get coffee to go — and then walk in the park. Venue change. If she pisses and moans, ta-ta.
I know that now, but at that time I was rather pathetic and unknowledgeable regarding those kinds of things.
Location: SLC, Utah
“The odds are good but the goods are odd” I nomally do ok, but the quality of girls i get online is less then when i cold approach. I normally do online when i’m really busy or down to 1-0 active girls. Do a few days of bulk messaging with teasing and can usually fill a week or so of dates. I’d say maybe 1/3 of those dates go somewhere when i want them to. Overall i think its great, but in Utah day game is rough because early marriages, nightlife is fairly spread out and can be spotty. But i’ve been told i have a good look, reasonably witty, and i lie about my age to make the younger girls feel better. One issue i have is i can guess a fair amount if i will get a response based on womens profile. The best looking girls are likely there for validation and the more bitchy gals rarely do either. Still message because messaging is based on boned test and if i can come up with good quick line.
What is your accepted level of lying? Age only and then only +/- 3 years? What about income? Should you put your actual income? I make good money and I would never put how much I actually make! (Besides, divorce is going to wreck that number anyway).
We should all probably add 2 inches to our height just to keep up with everyone else.
I agree with the height. Generally, the closer you get to 6′ tall, the more hits you’d get. Just my experience, though I’m over 6′ and won the genetic lottery on that one. 🙂
I never put down my income. None of their business, and I never disclosed this to any of the women I was seeing for a short time. I’m sure it would be more worthwhile to show a little (fake) swag and bling in your pics, just to see if you get more bites.
When I wrote messages while in a good mood I got a response about 1/3 of the time, in an average mood my response rate was more like half that.
I ended up messaging girls who I wouldn’t look at in real life, just to see what it took to get a consistent response rate.
I finally decided that I’m better at hiding my contempt of most people IRL than on the internet; I stopped reading the profiles when it seemed that the biggest different between most of them was, “I like all kinds of music except country,” or “I prefer country music.”
An afternoon of “street game” nets greater results than online.
It wasn’t quite a “hippo safari,” but wasn’t tremendously better either.
Area: Eastern Tennessee
It’s been a bizarre ride but generally unfulfilling. I just recently filled up my inbox across the 2ish years I’ve used it and in that time accumulated about 3 relationships, approximately 6 notches about 20 real live dates and a slew of numbers, messages, pics and exchanges of all stripes that never amounted to much.
First and foremost girls can be divided into three categories: Ugly and/or fat girls earnestly putting themselves out there, attractive girls who’re basically using it to further inflate their ego and damaged goods.
The first two categories are pretty self explanatory. The <5's are just seeing if perhaps this turns out something for them. I generally found that ugly on the outside was at best bland and at worst aggressively awful on the inside.
The hot chicks never reply and if they do it's curt, bitchy and entitled.They're more or less mirages or reminders of who *doesn't* need to use such a service.
The third category is where it's interesting and where most of my dates and all of my bangs came from. Damaged goods girls run the gamut from "Hot but with crippling personality flaws" to "Average but very strange" to "Saddled with various SMV demerits (Kids, ongoing relationships, etc". I've sexted nearly unprompted with housewives. I've met (and bedded) BDSM painsluts. There was the religious zealot with some kind of unresolved issue. The autistic girl. You get the idea. If you're an oddball yourself, you might find something suited for you. I very nearly did once.
By and large, I think it's best used as a supplement to more mainstream methods of dating. Meeting mates through work, school or friends honestly turns up better quality (albeit less often) than OKC. Running game elsewhere IRL still more so. But if you're down and out, have limited resources, are extra thirsty or otherwise compromised at the time, it can help.
Pingback: An Invitation To Describe Your Online Dating Experiences May 30th |
55, WashDC, OKC and Match.
I take the profile part seriously and craft a narrative that is meaningful to me; tell the truth in all things and warn any woman that I don’t tolerate white lies of the weight, education, and income variety; post a selfie (clothed) that verifies my claims to fitness and size/weight (6’1, 183); never go out with a woman who doesn’t post a picture of her figure (“athletic and toned” is usually match.com-speak for FAT); and post an age-range of 18-121 because I’m sick of the angry feminists with hideous faces who write angry emails when I say what it really is (30-50). I quote my income because I’m proud of it and women filter for that.
I get more inbound than outbound. Most of the inbound is from unfortunate creatures but that’s just the crap you delete before their faces are engraved in your mind.
I get dates on about 50% of my outbound. NB, I am pretty selective about whom I approach, because I have a few types that I know will like me, and I like in return. So my hit rate is high because my targeting is specific to a profile that I have found to work for me emotionally, intellectually, and sexually. I date-stamp my photos because too many men are lying about their appearance, or using out-of-date photos. To the guys who are adding inches to their actual height? Makes women contemptuous when you meet them. I don’t think that’s a good way to get laid or get a relationship, lying. I much prefer a woman to say, “You’re better looking than your pictures.” I’m not, but evidently I am more confident or have more presence than they expect.
I have to turn off my profile if I am active for a week, because I work a lot and can’t go out every night; I also don’t want to start a flirtation and then be too busy to act on it. I save profiles and build an inventory of women I want to meet later. I turned off my profile a week ago. In the last two weeks I have gone out seven times. Five are still in my spreadsheet. Three have come home with me, one twice. I have too many women in my spreadsheet right now to handle. So the profiles are turned off.
In my second email I note plainly that if they’re looking for a PC submissive-boy type, I am the wrong dude. By clearly denoting a dominant style, which I have started doing this year, in a very elliptical and polite way, I have had women all but promise sex on the first date. Their panties are flying off. And I have had more first date sex ex-post this strategy than I have ever had in my life. Frankly, it’s unbelievable. I’m getting to third base in the fucking car after two drinks on the first date half of the time, and, depending on logistics, you can imagine how the rest of the evening goes.
In general, what works for me is suggesting a Gregory Peck public style (I open doors, sorry PUA-land) and a dominant private (sexual) style. This has two virtues: one, it’s true — that’s who I am; two, women (at least the ones I date) are desperate for it.
After the second email I tell them I do not want to email, I want to date. Get rid of the pen pals. Supplicant men are pen pals. Women want to fantasize about Fabio. Fabio doesn’t email.
If a woman shit-tests me in their emails, I call them on it once. I just go right at them and say something like “Not sure why you would say that. Buzzkill. I don’t interact this way. Perhaps we are not a match.” Usually their interest level goes up. One said to me (she’s an SVP in a very tough industry: “I like how you put me in my place.” She then apologized and said, “I want a do-over. I’ll write you another introduction.” And she did. She’s come home with me twice in a week, bought me two pairs of jeans and a pair of Guccis (she’s in fashion), and I’m not going to say what she says after a night of bouncy-bounce, except that Roissy’s #14 is 99.99999% true.) Fits with the dominance aspect, I guess. If they persist, I tell them I’m no longer interested if what they think is sarcastic fun is to diminish a man. I dropped a girl two months ago because of her endless snark. She’s still texting me, emailing me, calling me. (cf. Roissy #14.) (My variation on #14: she cums first several times, then I tell her what I want, if she doesn’t just already know.) Some, at this point are more interested and comply; it’s really a seduction at this point. I flush the others. Remember, there’s a lot of noise on-line.
That’s about it. I tell them early in the dialogue that I am not in the marriage market and I’m dominant in the sack, and I think this triggers some 50 Shades emotional porn response, while divorcees who just jettisoned their beta PC husbands are seemingly getting wet. It is also good for one’s conscience not to be a shit-heel liar with one’s friends. Danny504 is busier than anyone, but he never lies, so far as I can tell. I think it is a mistake in life to think that one can be deceitful and no one will notice. Oh, incidentally, no woman ever *believes* I’m not in the marriage market (been there, have the t-shirt, it’s got blood all over it, no thanks). But I am forthright; their hamster is their business.
One does encounter a lot of self-sabotaging women, who are the ones I dislike the most, because they’re wasting everyone’s time. I’ve found that as they get older, they get more gunshy about rejection, or more bitter and self-destructive, or more stupid, or something, so they self-sabotage. I try to filter for that, but it’s hard to do until you meet.
I have met and become close to women I would never have met in my professional life (a household name actress, a beautiful novelist, a 44 year-old with a body that I miss every day, a McKinsey consultant, and on and on and on). I like online dating, but just have to remind myself that it’s the signal-to-noise ratio that counts, and to ignore the noise. The noise used to bother me, so I have gotten more and more specific about what I want, and I don’t hesitate to put that in my profile. But you have to tune for the signal, not the noise.
In general, most women are lying about their age or physique, and often as to whether or not they are truly divorced or just separated. But I tell them that if they lie about anything, I will not go out with them for any reason. I also tell them if they don’t post pictures, we are not going to have a conversation. I am going to shape and control the (dating) space, they and their fibs and fantasies, are not. Surprise: they like this.
I think the key to online is to know your strengths, portray them accurately and with some grace, and know who you want to meet to some degree of specificity. Then maintain your frame — your true character — and be unabashed about being a decent guy with designs on her body. Unless you’re on a Christian site, online dating is about sexual fantasy, as well as emotional porn, even when the woman is spewing treacle about endless walks on the beach and perfect soulmates.
The crew here is a lot younger than I so YMMV. I’ve no idea how 20-somethings are because I don’t pursue them. I get maybe five inbound a week from 20-somethings, and I’ve gone out with a few. But I’m really not into PUA notching and prefer a relationship in the 30-50 range with someone I can talk to. And usually they’re just freaks (I am, after all, 55) and I don’t put time into meeting them online.
Be careful out there.
Got to get back to work now.
You must be a pretty good looking dude. What I found in my limited experience is that women will turn themselves inside out for a good catch, for an alpha. You are so right about it being a sexual fantasy. I was shocked at how overtly sexual and kinky some women were as compared to their innocent profile.
The 50 Shades series is terrible literature, and women of all stripes are reading it, in the tens of millions. There’s a reason for that.
I’m sigma, really. I probably look like an alpha to many, in looks and work. But in fact, in my profile, I describe myself as a faux-alpha.
Very good analysis and summary, I must say. Indeed, if you say what you want and are no-bullshit, that generally would go a long way.
As for women “craving it,” in general, I can vouch for this. My three women friends I’ve mentioned tell me from time to time about the guys they’ve gone out with. Their slightly occasionally unrealistic expectations and fantasies aside, they often tell me about how lackluster their dates are. DC, as I’m sure you know, is famous for the DC douchebag. Even I get tired of encountering this animal and try to stay away.
In the 2+ years I’ve been dating, I have noticed that there are quite a few women out there, of varying ages, who are craving someone at least pseudo-alpha and someone who can hold a conversation. This happened to me one time with a 28 year old who I bedded on the first date. A very cute Mexican-Asian mix, she told me over drinks that she was fed up with the “guys around here,” which I took to mean the douchebag who couldn’t hold a conversation. Though she herself, later on, exhibited some mental problems — and baby rabies — at least she responded well when I started asking her questions about herself and her interests, making it seem genuine.
I’m curious to know what the age range is of the women that you’ve been dating. You’ve stated 30-50, but what range have they fallen?
Thanks for the props.
In the main, the women I date are between 35 and 50. Currently I’m dating a 37 year-old, a 41 year-old and a 47 year-old. In the past 12 months they have ranged from 22 to 51. The 22 year-old, though, was not DC. I have a farm in Iowa and she is a bartender at the tavern there, where I take my rye and read the paper. Good girl. She still pours my drinks with a smile, so maybe that situation gets revisited.
I’ve found that with the over-50 crowd (i.e., my age-peers) the self-sabotage is off the charts. Self-sabotage is just another way of a woman telling a man he’s going to dump her, so she’s going to do it first. If I cared, I would think of a way for women of a certain age to stop acting like 12 year-olds. But I don’t care. I took a 57 year-old out recently, because she’s smart, successful and she’s a great athlete — she’s in better shape than I. She clearly was attracted to me but after 20 minutes she just started acting insane (telling me in one sentence I was a great catch, and in the next fucking sentence telling me I probably was a douche-louche), and I don’t think I’m going to bother with them anymore. They’ve had too much exposure to the feminist world they created.
DC women in my demographic cohort are mostly feminist whether they admit it or not. (It’s a powerful pride thing with them not to date older men.) So a problem with online dating is I get rejected by women when I strongly suspect they would go out with me if they met me in a bar, where I don’t have a sign around my neck saying “Double Nickel.” For example, if I’m at the Tabard, I can easily get into a banter with women of 35 and ask them out. But not online. (My success rate with women eight years younger is about 90%. Some of them are still attractive and healthy in the head. In NYC women are more lenient and will respond up to a15 year spread if they think you have money.) Just another hypocrisy of feminism.
It’s a powerful pride thing with them not to date older men.
And yet, they’d complain in the same breath about how the men closer to their own age are uber-douches and “there are no good men.” Super self-sabotage there.
In my limited experience, there seems to be a slight difference between the women who have just moved to DC and the ones who have been here too long. Sure, feminism infects all, but more with the older, more established crowd. A buddy of mine reports that the over-40 divorcees in Bethesda are some of the worst.
I’d like to go out for a drink sometime and trade stories. Can you send me your email?
DCPhil, love to do it, but I can’t post my email online.
Send PM a private message and he can forward it to me. We’ll set something up that way.
42, Chicago, Match.com and eHarmony
Window Shoppers are women whose primary purpose on dating sites is to gauge male interest in themselves. Theoretically, they’ll date men who meet their superhuman criteria but, in practice, this rarely happens. Besides the extremely picky, Window shoppers include those who sign up for free trials but don’t decide to join, those in relationships looking to trade up, and those who are paranoid.
What do I mean by superhuman criteria? Height seems to be the primary filter women use on online dating sites. Like DC Phil said, they seem focused on men 6 feet tall or taller. I remember a 5’4″ match told me emphatically that she just wasn’t attracted to short men. To her, short men were those who weren’t at least 8 inches taller than her. A 6’2″ male friend, who married a woman he met on Match.com, convinced me to try online dating. But, being 5’7″, my experiences were vastly different than his. Combine height with income and numerous arbitrary dealbreakers and it’s criteria very few mortal men can meet. (Unless you’re BuenaVista.)
What do I mean by arbitrary dealbreakers? Here’s one conversation I had:
HER: I was an exchange student in South America. I can speak Spanish.
ME: Spanish? Have you ever read Pablo Neruda?
HER: Who’s Pablo Neruda?
ME: He was a famous Chilean poet.
HER: Oh, poetry! I don’t think we’d make a good match…
Ghouls are women whose profiles don’t match reality. For example, I expected to meet a redhead whose profile pictures looked like the actress Gillian Anderson but she ended up looking like the Illinois State Comptroller Judy Baar Topinka. (Do an image search on Google or Bing.) Another woman had a photograph posing with children and its caption stated they were her nieces and nephews. She later explained that those were her kids but her sister had custody of them. Was she in prison? Rehab?
Ghosts are women who either disappear or just aren’t there. Some women just stop responding for apparently no reason. But, the worst are the ones that stand you up. I remember going to meet a date in Indianapolis, approximately three hours away. When I was two hours into my journey, somewhere in the cornfields of Indiana, she sends me a text message and cancels. Chasing ghosts in cornfields, that was my experience with online dating.
I’ve met all three in my online dating forays. All three are annoying, but not much you can do.
The Window Shoppers are also what someguy refers to as “checklisters.” They’ve already eliminated you for no apparent reason and, if there are no tingles, then cut your minuscule loss and move on. No need to waste your time with what BuenaVista has here termed “self-sabotagers.”
I’ve met one or two Ghouls, too. One was a 37-year old I met for drinks near downtown DC. As soon as I walked in and saw her (fattie), that was it. I managed to sit through an hour of her blathering on about herself and her friends who worked in the “movies business, while I was munching on fries and sipping my beer. I sat there pissed off throughout the whole thing. After one hour, I asked for the check, split it with her, and then left her on the street with a short and curt “adios.” I think she was slightly offended, but I didn’t care.
And, I’ve had a few Ghosts. Best thing to do with them has been recommended elsewhere in the Manopshere: i.e., have a Plan B and C if she flakes. Take something to read or some work to do while waiting (but, if possible, have her get to the meeting place first and make her wait just a few minutes while you get there) so that you’re doing something productive with your time. If she flakes, then segue into something else more productive. Little time is lost and your blood pressure won’t go up. It’s nothing to get worked up about.
And, for the record, you driving out there to Indy was a mistake. My suggestion is to either stick to local women, or have her meet you halfway next time. If she refuses the latter, then kick her to the curb.
Yeah, Phil, I never go on a date without the morning’s Journal or Times. Frankly, I enjoy reading the paper so much, over a glass of wine, that often I prefer it to the human who shows up. But not always.
The Neruda anecdote is priceless. You actually know who Neruda or Borges is, she’s accustomed to idiots say, “Oh, kewl, South America.” The adventure travel fetish of a lot of these women is indicative of superficiality, not curiosity, as in this case.
As evidenced by their stock photos of places in the UK, France, Peru, India, Costa Rica, Prague, etc. that lots of people have been to. Badge of honor/social proof to other chicks, in other words.
Now, if the chick has been to places like Armenia, the Maldives, Greenland, or just something out-of-the-way, I’m more inclined to take notice and ask her about it. I lived in Germany for three years and I have yet to hear many chicks talk about that country, other than Berlin or Munich, of course. (But, strangely enough, there aren’t too many out there that have talked about Berlin.)
35, Pittsburgh area, OKC and PoF
Had no trouble getting dates. But, OMFG, is every person on OLD sites broken?
I decided to try OLD for a month, basically because an old friend of mine is the complete internet pimp and, frankly, I know I’m more marketable than his ass. So, I figured, why not?
I did four dates over a month. One chick was a complete ho hitting on everything that moved. One was so damaged from her previous male experiences that frankly she shouldn’t be dating anyone. One was in the “career-first” mode but trying to bullshit herself she could balance school, work and dating (you can’t). The fourth one was super-weird hippie free love psych major into weird shit.
There were other options, but I found scheduling was problematic. At the end of a month, I couldn’t have cared less. The results were markedly inferior to what I could find at any bar on a Friday night.
The problem with OLD was not a lack of supply. It was that women on those sites are pure, concentrated broken-ness. Women don’t do OLD until they’re afraid to poke their heads out of the house at all. At that point, a woman isn’t worth the bother.
I agree with much of what’s been said about online dating.. And of DC women..
Although been taking numerous (refreshing) breaks from dating over the past few months, I’ve gotten much better at online dating, putting it as a much lower priority than work, staying in shape, and occasional ‘day game’ pick ups.
I’ve changed my profile, putting both a ‘vaguely handsome guy’ professional photo and a ‘what are you looking at?’ casual photo wearing a ‘wife beater’ /undershirt out on a balcony. This latter photo has doubled my response rate.
My profile is very blunt about looking for a feminine woman, and is suggestive of sexual playfulness (a biting reference.).
My target range is wide (23-35) but I approach first drinks dates differently. I expect headaches and drama out of 23-25, and ‘checklisting’ (“how much do you make?”, etc) out of 31-35 yos. 26-30 is probably the best for me.
DC Phil, I’ve def toyed with the 40-43 age range a little, but the entitlement is way too strong in most of them.. All when I could be out with a 27 year old and the same level of bs.. It makes little sense…
I’ve decreased the amount of ‘no tingles’ polite, but ‘there’s no connection’ post first drinks responses, but, on my end, have cut them off at the first sign of bull… Even if I’m making out at the metro with them after 2 drinks. A kiss is just a kiss. Also, hat tip to PM for the arm in arm suggestion. Women love this.
Buena Vista, I like your shit test responses, by the way. I tend to ignore or agree/amplify on a lot of crap. We’ve all seen it all from women. I love telling women that I’m a drug dealer in response to the ‘what do you do?’ question, by the way.
I’ve had much better 1st,2nd, 3rd, 4th dates out of women I’ve met in real life. Fewer games out of ‘live caught’ women, in my experience. I’m a ‘lone wolf’ in terms of my style of spur of the moment pickups-all as part of my regular life-running errands in DuPont, Georgetown, or Bethesda. I’m too old to be a mega approach PUA. Besides, it’s too easy to get a number.
I’ve really relegated online dating to ‘video game’ status. I don’t even care about it, but it’s a nice low effort supplement to the real world.
I learned from this. Last week I got a number from a woman in my condo tower — on the elevator. I did have to step out on her floor for an additional 15 seconds of conversation before suggesting we hang out on the rooftop sometime. She actually blushed and smiled. I am a natural introvert, extremely private personally and professionally (it’s DC, after all) and this was revelatory.
The future is day-game, in many ways. Live, the age thing is truly irrelevant: they’re either attracted, or they aren’t. A reasonably sensate male will know. PrivateMan is so right about just getting out into the world and saying hello, with zero concerns about being blown out. After all, saying hello *is* truly innocent. We are all people, wandering this void called earth. The PUAs seem to think it’s a big deal to smile and say “Hi! How’s your day going!” Apparently, it’s so rare that the females feel like princesses, and we all know that they think they should be princesses. Online is way more than video-game diversions, for me, but there is so much more information in a live interaction, that I am shopping at my Whole Foods now — every fucking day.
With luck I’ll find a way to impart some of this info to my sons, so they don’t spend a couple of decades figuring it out.
I agree that online dating is now up there with video games in terms of it being a diversion. It works against us men for a whole host of reasons. Indeed, meeting someone face-to-face is better than meeting someone via pixels.
On the other hand, my experience with daygame is a bit mixed. If I had more time, I could be out at Whole Foods and Trader Joe’s here in DC and see what the pickings are during the day. But, I neither have the time nor, really, that much inclination to invest time in doing something where I could be spending that time in something more productive, like learning a new job skills or something that makes my life easier. Does that make me sound a bit defeatist? Yes,it does. But, I speak from the standpoint of someone who has always found it more difficult to carry on a boring conversation instead of something more pointed.
Really, the more I’ve done it, the more I’ve seen online dating as somewhat similar to someone who has a blog — and, to a lesser extent, the Facebook attention-whore. One expects that the blogger to put his or her thoughts out there for the world to see. It’s up to the readership to decide whether or not to keep reading or click and look at something else. If, say, the chick is interested in New Urbanist architecture and I have the same interest, then she and I have something in common, something on which we could base a face-to-face meeting in the future. All the better if she’s quirky and irreverent (traits I do admire in women of all ages) because I have something there on which to begin flirting.
My point is that online dating helps in the screening and sorting process. But, something is lost in that it’s not interacting with the person face-to-face. On the other hand, just interacting with people out in public can be an exercise in futility if they’re in groups and the herd mentality takes over, or if they have nothing intelligent to say. Trust me, I’ve been there and done that with chicks who are decently attractive, but who have horrible social skills — not to mention overblown entitlement mentalities.
OKC, Match, Jdate, POF (not recently)
Did this on and off for a few years. Met my last LTR on Jdate but overall it’s been mostly a waste of time. However, I’ll probably eventually try again, because I am not an outgoing person and making friends only gets harder with age. Online dating is inherently difficult because you are dealing with a female population that is heavily skewed toward the dysfunctional. I think the only way to succeed is to do whatever it takes to boost the female response rate so as to maximize your chances of encountering a few good ones.
My approach has been to describe myself accurately, include recent photos, some of which show me doing my favorite athletic activity, describe my values and interests and include a lot of witty humor. I’m of average height and very thin, not bad looking but I don’t get much female attention. I don’t make a lot of money at the moment, and my sense is that this is an important issue for a lot of women around my age, at least in this part of the country. OTOH, as an experiment I temporarily changed my profile on a couple of sites to show a much higher income and there was no bump in responses; not sure if that means anything. Also, there have been periods when I was 1) much younger and 2) making much more money, and I still didn’t do well with women, so maybe money isn’t such a big issue.
Another complication is that I’ve been looking mainly for Jewish women. Most single Jewish women around my age are more left-wing politically than I want to deal with. Obviously I am looking for something longer-term, so values are important. Maybe I am looking for unicorns.
Like Buena Vista I screen ruthlessly for honesty. This extends to things like doing image searches on profile photos and trying to determine their real identities. My impression is that most of them are lying about something, usually their age. There are a very few who are conspicuously honest, and to me these are much more attractive than the others. But again – unicorns.
The different sites. Match was almost worthless for me. Very few responses. OKC was better, but it skews left politically and it’s totally oriented to women. Most of those silly questions and tests are traps designed to give women reasons to screen you out (“Is it worse to harm children or animals?”). I didn’t answer them. I had a lot of chats that went nowhere. A good site for practicing text game, though. Jdate was the best for me, even though it seems to have a lot of fake profiles and mercenary women. But more Jews who are looking for Jews, so better odds for me. Overall the online experience got worse for me between 2010 and 2012-13. This time around I sent out more messages and got far fewer responses, and I received very few initiations. Maybe I became less attractive between 2010 and now, but I think it’s more likely that the online environment became more competitive.
Based on some of the comments above, the next time around I will rewrite my profile to 1) say more what I want, rather than describe myself like some job-interview candidate, 2) make them qualify themselves to me, and 3) reduce the number of photos and improve their quality – maybe a head shot in a suit and another pic in a wife-beater (great idea) with a bit of stubble and a cocky look.
I’d have to agree about the left-leaning Jewesses. Seems par for the course these days, and if Sheryl Sandberg is becoming the poster child for hypergamous, overeducated, and opinionated (not to mention highly aberrant and in no way representative of the huge swatch of the female population) Jewish chick, not surprising. More of these women would “lean in” by leaning out . . . leaving us men to do most of the heavy lifting.
In my experience, the Jewesses who are amenable to dating goys probably are a bit desperate or just flattering themselves. I’m inclined towards the former, if the stereotypical nebbish is any guide. I once dated a decently attractive blonde Jewess nearly three years who got her Ph.D. in anthropology and who did some work in Ethiopia on the Jewish community there. Not bad to talk with her about her research and other intellectual topics, but she did have an air of superiority about her that I couldn’t stomach after a while. Three dates, and she called it off. Back then, I was still blue-pillish, so I couldn’t see the warning signs that it wasn’t going anywhere.
I can’t stand JAPs, and so have stayed away from them. When I still had my profile up, if the chick had “Jewish” and “New York” in her profile, I ignored her. No thanks.
Maybe you could send the next prospect this link and see if she finds it hilarious:
If so, you might have a keeper there. 🙂
Pingback: Online Dating – Toronto PoF Edition | M3
Very late to this party – better late than never
Late 40s, SoWisconsin – OKC, Match, PofF and Craig’s List
Have used these at various times over the past few years – each has its own strength and weakness. OKC was probably the most “fun”(loved the blogs), Match the most boring, PofF is fucking SCARY landwhale central and Craig’s List the most fascinating.
I’m a decent writer – so for me, OKC and CL were where I could shine by writing a story, by standing out from the mewling crowd and use my words to set the stage. CL is/was a trip – the biggest range of women from utterly dreadful to supremely sublime. One learns to weed quickly and yes, you have to do some work with CL – however, the early 20 something hb 8 I’m currently with was worth every piece of spam received and every well-written but unanswered ad created. One thing I really like about CL, is that you can try pretty much any crazy idea – see what works, what doesn’t – and you don’t have to worry about someone checking out how your profile changes: Write, try, experiment. FWIW, the 20 something responded to a post I made titled “Helpful spelling tips for CL ads” – which was both funny and arrogant.
Someone above raised an interesting point – YOUR attitude when writing. I’ve found this matters more than you’d think. In fact, I’m willing to wager that your personal mindset when sitting down to initiate contact/set up a profile matters more than anything else. If you’re in a happy, confident mood – this WILL radiate and shine. If you’re sad and lonely and depressed – guess what women will read….. So think about those times when you’re rocking it – when you’re feeling gooooood – and next time you are, sit down and crank out a few letters and throw up a CL post and see what happens. Throw down a shot or two, crank up the cockyfuck residing within and let ‘er rip.