How Women Turn Men Into Pickup Artists
A friend and colleague is doing the online dating thing with OKCupid. He’s 26, intelligent, and with a diverse range of interests and enthusiasms. All in all, he’s a good guy and certainly boyfriend material. He’s also relatively short at 5’6″ and he accepts his height realistically.
A girl recently sent him this OKCupid message:
“You are perfect except for your height wahhh. We should be friends, I think we would get along really well and have similar tastes/interests.”
What. A. Bitch.
She is the one who sent the message to him and then she rejects him romantically in the first sentence because of a physical characteristic completely beyond his control. Worse, she still wants “friendship” as an option. Here’s the most clueless girl on the planet. It’s clueless (and classless) girls like this who turn men into cold-hearted pickup artists. If she’s pulling a shit test to see if my friend would rise to the occasion, she’s taking bitchery to stratospheric levels. Likely, she’s not even aware of how awful she came across in her message.
It’s these types of rejections from women that lead men to Red Pill wisdom, for better and worse. M3’s emotionally shattering blog post on his 12 years of involuntary celibacy is a perfect example of this (links below). My friend’s preemptive online dating rejection is yet another example. The thermonuclear rejections doled out by rude girls to hapless guys simply serve to push men into relationship territory not approved by mom (link below).
Most men have enough awareness to not send the following online dating message to a perfect stranger:
“You are perfect except for your weight. We should be friends, I think we would get along really well and have similar tastes/interests.”
Here’s the hard reality of this: Women can lose weight but men can’t grow. Still, a clueless dame decided to remind my friend about his inability to grow a few more inches so he might be able to meet cupcake’s need for a taller guy. Thankfully, my friend is a rational fellow and did not give me the girl’s OKCupid account name, not allowing me to make her public. The Manosphere guys would not be nice to her.
The Private Man 
What a flake!
Did he message her back at all? Soooooooooo many ways to play bounce back with that. Honestly I think she’s challenging him to just blow right thru her objection – she’s expressing interest and seeing if he’s got the balls to say something like “Wow – you’ve got big hair – I might need a ladder to check out all your split ends. What are the odds of my grabbing a handful later tonight?” or “Short height, big dick. Works for me. I’ll bet you’re a crazy cat lady in training” or similar.
No, no message back from him. If she’s shit testing right out of the gate with an unsolicited message, she’s simply unworthy of him.
Personally, I think he’s wasting an opportunity here – twofold. First, an opportunity to blow thru a shit test – can’t speak for him, I like opportunities to do so – especially when I don’t care. Always good to get comfortable dealing with them – and as mentioned there are sooooo many potential bounceback opportunities.
Second, she’s giving him a serious IOI – he can either take and run with it and blow off her objection or simply fold to her test. And there are ways he can deal with her rudeness immediately – something like “Hey – thanks for your interest. I can see you haven’t been trained by a man yet. Your message is going to cost you two points. Now – write me a polite letter of introduction and tell me why your hair is worth pulling” or similar. Cut her rudeness off at the knees, destroy her shit test AND DHV sexual dominance all in one fell swoop.
That’s my take and I’m sticking to it.
Unless she’s fat and ugly.
“No, no message back from him. If she’s shit testing right out of the gate with an unsolicited message, she’s simply unworthy of him.”
Good advice. Some people just like being assholes. It’s easy to be a rude and insulting asshole to total strangers on the internet because there are no repercussions if you do it. So the internet attracts people who like to be rude assholes and she would fall into this category. She’s just the dating site equivalent to the troll commenters in blog comment sections. And you know they always say “don’t feed the troll” by responding to them so the same advice would apply here.
No, no message back from him. If she’s shit testing right out of the gate with an unsolicited message, she’s simply unworthy of him.
While this is undoubtedly the correct approach, the dark side in me says that this is a golden opportunity to fuck with her head. It’s not like feeding a blog troll. A woman this solipsistic, self-centered, and shallow is begging for a comeuppance…
” “You are perfect except for your height wahhh. We should be friends, I think we would get along really well and have similar tastes/interests.”
What. A. Bitch.”
He should consider himself so fortunate that he even got a response.. unsolicited even! 😛
Side note. You know how many women i’ve spoken to since you tweaked my profile? Take a guess.
ps. is this a case of that word “Solipsism”? My feelings reading her pre-emptive rejection of him was simply her being 100% clueless and simply unable to comprehend what it would be like as the man on the other side of the monitor reading those words.
It’s like women spit this garbage without one ioata of a clue as to how it will be absorbed. It sounded tee hee coming out of her mouth at the time!
I guess I’m not seeing what the real issue is here. Yes, it was a bit crass in the delivery, but it’s not close to true nuclear rejections, really. It wasn’t sarcastic or mean, just thoughtless. Yes, he can’t change his height, but accepting the limitations of that is a part of the deal. Height for many women (most of them) is an absolute deal-breaker, it is the one physical aspect that is non-negotiable for most of them. Yes, men can’t change it, but that’s life — you need to learn to work with it, and not take it personally that so many women have you completely off the screen due to something you can’t change.
I’m only slightly taller than your friend, at 5’7″, and in effect this means that there is a large % of women who just will never consider you — at least not until they are much older and out of better (taller) options. It’s less of an issue now at 45 (although still one with quite a few women), because many of the women my age and thereabouts have fewer options now — it was a big issue when I was in my 20s. Once you accept this, however, you can deal with it rationally and work around it by finding women who are either more petite, or quirky in other ways such that height for you is not a complete dealbreaker for them. You can also work on what you *can* change by upping your Game, of course, and you definitely should — being a very well-dressed, toned, and charming 5’6″ guy certainly increases the pool somewhat, but height is still in many ways a hard cap for guys unless you are someone like Tom Cruise (and if you’re reading this, you’re not Tom Cruise), especially in an online dating setting where women are presented with tons of attention and actively seek to disqualify men even more than in real life. With a limitation like being 5’6″ you need to work it differently so you can work around that limitation and still succeed.
You really don’t see the problem? He had never messaged or or inquired about her interest. She just took it upon herself to message him and remind him that’s he’s short.
I don’t see it as a big deal no. It was crass, as I say above. It was basically a crass way of saying “too bad you’re too short for me, because I like the rest of your profile”. Nuclear would be downright mean, which this wasn’t. Women are going to say much worse things than this in the course of things, really.
You gotta be kidding me.
Women — you want to know why you stand around at age 30 with no man and no prospects, and can’t find a “good man”?
You want to know why more and more men are saying “NO” to marriage.
You want to know why more and more men don’t want to be fathers and hitch themselves to you for 20 years or more?
You want to know why the SMP looks like this?
Because of shit like this:
“You are perfect except for your height wahhh. We should be friends, I think we would get along really well and have similar tastes/interests.”
Exactly, I probably would have nucked her hamster, just b/c I’m tired of the attitude.
any man who seeks after “relationship” on a site called OK Cupid deserves a slap from the universe
next, how about a visit to Please Castraste Me.com?
what in God’s name are you guys thinking? ever hear the words “desperation” and “grovelling”?
a kid this young (26) needs an older, experienced guy around to steer him away from the stupidities and effeminacies (can you say “OK Cupid?”) of the modern femi-world
obviously, the kid has nobody to tell him never to seek females through such foolish, sordid, self-degrading means as OK Cupid (shit even the NAME is emasculating, before anything else even happens . . . and y’all PAY to be degraded thus)
young men are some lost lost puppies that is for sure
what a sad article in a sad time
@Ray – first – OKC is free. Second – if he’s got any game, he’ll do well there for he’ll stand out big time in a sea of beta blandness.
So, you don’t like OKCupid… fair enough.
Just know that online dating is a serious reality and should be part of most guy’s strategy for meeting women. Also, OKCupid is free and is certainly legitimate.
I’ve never found the appeal. I’d say this is true if you’re 30 or older. If you’re a younger guy, it’s a waste of time.
A week ago I was talking to a girl 22 set who is going to get married with a guy in her age in a couple of years. She’s been overweight in the past and developed anorexia. Now she is just a little chubby.
She was wearing high heels and I teased her for being “so” tall. She told me that even on high heels his boyfriend was taller than her. We had this conversation:
-What happens if he was shorter?
-Well, I’d have never dated him
-Just because of his height?
-Yes, it doesn’t look good
-To other people’s eyes?
-Exactly
-Wow, you are suuuuuch a superficial girl
-Now you made me feel bad
Our height issues must be canceled out with their weight issues shameless
I think you are wrong about this being what you typically call a shit test. To me this looks like a friends zone qualification. Think of it like this: the friend zone for a female aged 15-29 parallels the FWB for males aged 35-49. (By FWB I mean an uncommitted quasi-relationship; typically men do not present this as calling it a “friends with benefits” situation since it is more effective to simply say “I don’t know that I want a relationship right now, so let’s just keep it casual, date and be friends and see where things develop.” ) The writer of the message doesn’t want him to pass a test, she wants to add him to her group of friend zone buddies (or I guess that is what you might call “beta orbiters” whom she will never fuck).
The 20-something female and the 40-something male are behaving in the exact same manner – the person with more options is extracting benefits from the person with fewer options without providing benefits in return. The 20-something female gets validation, safety and emotional acceptance from a male without offering him the sexual benefits he craves; the 40-something male gets sexual benefits without offering the female the emotional validation and safety she craves. Both parties qualify potential targets very quickly in an online situation, and continually prime them in order to lower expectations. Both parties string the target along in a similar fashion. She says, “I don’t want to ruin our friendship” and he says, “I have a lot of work for the next month so I don’t know that I can do the bf/gf thing just yet, but maybe soon.”
If I had time I would expound more upon this – the manosphere often throws out the “cock carousel” accusation at never-married career gals who are 35+, when actually the “friend zone payback” is far more accurate.
I agree that he should’ve returned contact, not harshly, but firmly correcting her.. Why not practice his response to a situation he will undoubtedly be in countless times in his life, since he’ll want a response in person and be able to push past it. Many women would immediately reject a guy for height, but if they meet a charismatic, well put together, confident shorter guy they would forget about that initial requirement.
You guys forget that women are entirely tied up in their emotion. It’s something that we as men consider foreign, because we have preferences and by and large we stick to them no matter what. As an example, a girl’s personality isn’t going to make up for the fact that you’re an ass man and she has no ass to speak of. Whereas for women, their “requirements” are much more fluid and your success as a man is entirely in how you make her feel as well as how you carry yourself. Will there be exceptions? Sure, but not as many as we men logically would think.
I agree 100%.
I’m 5’6″, and every time I bang a girl she says the same thing afterwards. Something along the lines of, “Wow, I didn’t expect that to happen. You’re really not my type.” Of course, “not my type” = “less than 6′ “.
As always, watch what they do, not what they say. While being short does make things more difficult, most of that difficulty lies in your head. Once I began targeting ONLY women shorter than me, I started getting laid just as often as my tall friends.
Yes, a lot of what women say about height is just talk. Height is attractive to them, but it’s not the only thing, just like none of the other attraction factors is the only thing. I’m about average male height, but I met one woman online whose profile said she was my height, so she was okay with it. We got pretty intense over chat and phone, and she came over to my place. I answered the door barefoot (I was practicing extreme nonchalance at the time) and she was wearing heels, so she had to bend down to kiss me. She was in my bed 10 minutes later.
The next morning when she was freaking out, she tried to blame it on my height, but really she was feeling guilty about moving so fast, especially since it turned out she hadn’t *officially* broken things off with her boyfriend yet. The height thing was just an excuse, a way to blame it on me.
Being short online is a problem, though, because women will filter you out just like a guy filtering out all the “more to love” profiles, and you’ll never get a chance to blast past that excuse. I’m tempted to say guys should just lie, like women do about their weight, and say they’re 6′. Get her attention, and then at some point say,
You: “By the way, I’m not really 6’4”.
Her: “Oh? How tall are you?”
You (if she’s over 40): “Ever seen Time Bandits?”
You (if she’s younger): “3’3″. I know, I shouldn’t have lied, but I really wanted to talk to you. And I can get all the free circus tickets I want.”
In other words, do the usual: make a joke of it, don’t give her a straight answer, and once she’s tingling for you she won’t give a crap how tall you turn out to be.
I’m thinking a good answer to this one would have been: “Well, I’m really 6’6″, but I got tired of women hitting on me because of my height, so I subtracted a foot to filter out the shallow ones. Nice talking to you.”
@Cail
NIce “Time Bandits” reference! You should have asked her if she had the map.
What a clueless cow.
You are right TPM in that one thing is to have stupid thoughts, another one to actually contact your friend to tell him. It is impressive the amount of women who think like this (many of my female friends do, even those over 40), however many very tall women have a hard time finding a man interested in them too.
Personally, I think that “short” men usually develop other interesting and attractive qualities which make their personality masculine. But this might be because I come from a country where men are not particularly tall.
Another example of the exclusivity of the female sorting algorithm.
Drop her address to local PUA lair 🙂
I honestly didn’t think I had any emotions left, but when I read that message, I actually hurt for the guy. It’s her right to want whatever she wants, and it’s her right to spell it out if she feels so inclined, so I hope she doesn’t mind when I do the same: She’s a bitch who doesn’t deserve the friendship of anyone.
Your friend needs to meet her, orbit for however long it takes, then slide in during her “moment of weakness” and show her what a good old-fashioned pump-n-dump feels like.
I would have simply told the short man that at 5’6″ he may be below average height in the united states but he is above average in many foreign countries. Tallness/shortness is relative.
What you posted:
“You are perfect except for your height wahh. We should be friends, I think we would get along really well and have similar tastes/interests.”
What I read:
“Hi there! I’d like your attention/validation/resources but I don’t want to have to exchange sex in order to get them. How about you just give them to me for free?”
The sad thing is, back in my blue pill days I would have absolutely jumped at the chance to be friends with the girl, especially if she was attractive. Short guys simply don’t get unsolicited female attention, so when something like this does occur it’s incredibly easy to rationalize it into something entirely different.
The analogy is off. I’d suggest:
“You’re perfect except for your lack of wit and interest (waahh). We should totally become f*ck buddies”
It comes across of course as very rude, but no matter your height you will be wrong for someone. You might think at half and inch under six foot in my socks I’d be preening myself, but of course some hot chick at 6’1″ is unlikely to be interested in me, and I will feel slightly uneasy myself as I am used to looking down on women and in a natural way – looking up feels awkward to me, whether to a man or woman.
The trouble with fitness tests is that one cannot always think of a good answer at the time – but when one can the woman is often left speechless with hurt, such as (my own) classic, to an out-of-the-blue ‘I will never sleep with you!’ and my tart reply, ‘that’s because you could never afford me, dear’.
He needs practice in destroying shit tests. So respond accordingly, destroy that shit test! He shouldn’t care whether he ever has further communication with her, but who knows maybe the act of destroying the shit test will perk her interest sexually. At which point, pump and dump is ok, nothing more. She did respond to the profile, did she not? Given how few women respond at all, any response has to be taken as an IOI. If the IOI comes as a shit test, hit that sucker out of the park. If she still comes back, she knows the deal.
>>“You are perfect except for your height wahhh. We should be friends, I think we would get along really well and have similar tastes/interests.”
“Well, I’m much taller when you’re in front of me on your knees.”
I am so going to remember this one
This thread is over. Sombro won.
It never ceases to amaze how rude women can be for no reason whatsoever and completely unprovoked. ‘You are perfect except for your weight’… imagine the women that would be up in arms over that, yet they happily let the reverse fly.
It’s because there’s absolutely no repercussions for her actions. All her friends give her the “you go girl” pat on the back for putting that “jerk in his place.”
But let the guy try to defend himself or put her in her place and he’ll be attacked by the white knights.
Bill Burr puts it in perspective here:
I got this once from a girl in college. Decades later I bumped into her on Facebook and she was dating…an elf. A guy shorter than me who was also younger than her.
We all know the lesson here, but I’ll repeat it anyway. NEVER listen to what a woman says (or writes in this case), but watch what they do. Who knows WTF was up with this woman. Maybe she was trying to be funny.
By the way, “You’re fine except for your weight (or face or nose)” is, in fact, the perfect response. I once shot back with this and while the girl was “mortified” everyone was like “Hell, you asked for it.”
What women (and I suspect taller men) don’t realise is that it can work both ways. I’m 5 foot 4 and a half (the extra half inch is important – read on). And I can say that in person I have never been attracted to women taller than me. I can appreciate their beauty, sexiness etc, but they have never triggered the dick-twitch that indicates they have passed the boner test. For me taller women simply cause Captain Limp-On to ride into town. We are simply self-selecting ourselves out of contention.
I’ve never had problems with women because of my height. Ultimately, a woman’s demand of ‘I want a man over 6 foot tall’ realistically becomes, ‘I want a man taller then me.’ once you’ve built attraction. And that suits me fine.
I’m in the UK where the average height of adult women is 5 foot 4. That means that over half of all eligible women are shorter than me. In other words there are literally millions of women in contention. If I can’t find success with at least a few of those, the problem isn’t my height – it’s my Game.
I’ve never encountered the height issue in real life, I only hear about it on the ‘sphere. I have a friend who is barely over 5 foot. He goes to the gym, grooms and dresses well. Women can’t get enough of him. I think it takes more than being short to run them off entirely.
How tall is she? Because I’m 5’6 and my boyfriend all the way through college was just a little shy of 5’6 and there is something that works so well when two bodies are the same size. My husband is 6’2 and that fucker crushes me sometimes!
So..what you’re saying is that you married the wrong man? Do I hear ‘divorce’ in your future?!
Look, women can be cruel in a way that most men just can’t understand. I think the guy did the right thing in just moving on.
Agreed. Any response form him to “educate her” or “put her in her place” would just come off as either sour grapes or her going off on him for being bitter and angry.
He’s lucky he found out what a shallow bitch she is now rather than later.
My response: “That’s okay, you could stand to lose a few pounds yourself. Now that we’ve insulted each other, we should meet up for drinks so we can give each other grief in person.”
I have to agree with lots of the other advice here – telling him to move on is counter productive advice. He’s a young guy and she’s presumably a young girl. Your advice to him is about as relevant as my 50s female friend telling me to treat women like human beings and they’ll respond!
As we know, that’s not the case. It may be the case in your demographic PM, but it certainly isn’t in the 26 year old demographic. He needs to take it as an IOI and a shit test and destroy that shit.
The problem is that if you are forever dealing with toxic personalities you yourself will become jaded and toxic. It’s one thing to accept that women are lying whores and avoid marrying them but it’s something else entirely to be immersed in cunt soup. Life is too short to be dealing with outright cunts. Male or female for that matter…
Have to agree with Red Pill here.
After years in the PU game I eventually realised that giving badly behaved women the time of day (even as a means to an end) was making me more jaded and cynical. This made it more difficult for me to attract the high quality women that I was really after.
I stopped interacting at all with girls like this and I’ve been much happier for it.
It’s true…it is better to not interact with them if only to protect your sanity.
Happiness in the long run is better than being right. If you know how to pass shit tests, what’s the point of proving it to every tank grrl on the planet.
Thanks for realizing this as a legitimate topic PM that us short guys get the shaft in the dating world. I’m sick of hearing that “it’s all in my head” and I’m imagining things” that my lack of height has been a deterrent in dating.
Peruse any online dating site and you’d be hard pressed to find a female’s ad that doesn’t specify a height requirement regardless of how short she is. It’s been my experience that the shorter she is the more she demands a tall guy not realizing how silly a 4’11” girls looks with a 6’4″ guy.
I’ve literally had girls laugh in my face when I tried to talk to them and go “I don’t date short guys.” Are they bitches? Yup no doubt. What’s the repercussions though? Zero.
It’s also a huge double standard. A woman can make a huge bullet-pointed list that says you must meet all these qualifications or don’t waste my time but let a guy dare say I like blonds with at least a C cup and not overweight and he’s excoriated as a pig and a misogynist.
The double standard is what you should be reminding yourself of once you get older and the tables turn. You remember exactly how women act when the shoe is on the other foot.
‘Might makes right’ is the rule in the SMP. If you can get away with something and there are no consequences then its ok behaviour. Women teach this and then complain when men play by the same rule. Hamsterisms are then used to justify why men should ‘play fair’. Weak.
Not sure what you mean by get older I’m 45 now and this has been going on all my life. And if anything women’s behavior is getting worse not better thanks to “girl power” and white knights.
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Or turn men off completely.
I’m of similar height (5’7″ on a good day) and I avoid online dating like the plague. It’s a lot harder for a woman to reject me on that alone when she’s there in person with me getting her panties charmed right off. I banged a girl who said that I’m not tall enough for her and therefore don’t make her feel safe right to my face. Had to lol when, post-coitus, she told me she felt safe while lying in my arms. Interestingly, I have caught many around my height (either in heels or flats) trying to check out exactly how much taller or not taller I am than them after we’ve slept together (you know the sneaky height comparison, like when we were kids). I recall one even tried to ask me that question directly, down to centimetre accuracy lol. It’s like they’re trying to justify why they slept with that short bastard.
While it can be overcome, I know for sure that had I been taller, I’d have got a truckload more “auditions” and thus successes with women.
For short guys:
Don’t get mad (at women), get even. The best thing those women have taught me is that I don’t need to be so considerate towards women. Makes life a lot easier when you don’t generally give a fuck about hurting their feelings (unless they’ve earned your respect of course).
Stack the deck in your favour:
Pick your niche. I find that Anglosphere women are very heightist. FOB Asians, European and South American – not so much. My tallest lay is a 6’1″ Swede who likes to wear heels. I come up to her (huge) boobs. 😀
Do not do online dating. You can’t win over them when you’re a shit statistic to begin with. In person, you can overcome that with your other qualities.
Get ripped and muscular. If you’re already short, don’t be skinny or fat. No excuse.
Get a kickass sense of style. Dress like someone super interesting / important.
I just remember another example. One girl (my height or a lil taller) was sort of blowing me off by saying how she prefers tall guys as they’re strong and she’s turned on when they easily sweep her off her feet. Without missing a beat, initiated with a subtle movement of my hip, I flicked her up in the air and into my arms. “Like this?”, I asked. Yeah, she liked it. You think I can win over her online? Not a chance. Or can I win over her without being physically strong? Maybe, but the odds would be horrible.
I’m 6ft. I’ve never laid a woman taller than me. Now I really really wish I’d gotten in with a swede where I only came up to her huge boobs.
… Shit my bucket list has gotten longer. Thanks for that. 😦
This is exactly right. You can be successful if your shorter if you focus on certain targets more than others, and have the *rest* of your act other than height together in terms of physique, dress/style, and charm/Game. Not as much as if you were doing all of that and were 6’1″, but certainly well enough to be successful.
hmmmmm. i’m 5’4″. i’d have responded to said message with, “uuuuum. ok, but may i ask- how tall are you and how much do you weigh?”
game trumps height.
First off I’m 6’4″ so I have no idea how tough it is for short guys with ladies.
That being said still if women are that flaky about height then you don’t need them. Let them enjoy cats…after all they are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay shorter.
“Your personality is too cunty for me. Wahhh. I think we should just be friends with benefits. You have a vagina.”
I just love how some women have a checklist longer than the chinese wall when it comes to men. ‘You’re perfect – but lack a few cm’s’. Wow, -really-? Shallow, much?
In fairness, not being fat is non-negotiable for me, too. I just won’t write it in a message like she did (then again, why would you want to be friends with a fat chick? useless even for social proof)….
Nor would I be turned on by a dwarf, but as far as I can tell here, we’re not talking extremes, just a guy who happens to not be amongst the towering men.
And we hear all the time how shallow men are…I mean look at our comprehensive checklist.
Attractive figure.
Pleasant personality.
Although you’d never see a man message a woman that she doesn’t live up to those impossible standards. Doing nothing and ignoring her is easier.
It’s been proven that men’s standards are looser than women’s. Personally I have what I’d call my “type” but if someone out of the parameters showed interest I’m not gonna go “Well I’m only into dark hair and you’re blond so be gone.” Also refer to the OP. She said he was “perfect” EXCERPT for his height. So he’s not perfect then. But how much under her preferred height requirement is he? 2 inches? 6 inches? And if you don’t think women go “well you have to be at least 5’9″ and you’re only 5’8″ so no deal” you’re not paying attention.
@Richard — The ones who are the most sticky about height prefer men to be +4-6 inches taller so that they are still noticeably taller if the girl is wearing significant heels. So, yes, they do a mental calculation both vs themselves barefoot and then add the highest heels they are likely to wear out socially and just do the math. Now, NAWALT, which is the point of some of the posts above, and you have options to improve results overall even if some women will still reject you based on height, but that’s the comparison that women are making on this, generally.
There’s nothing ‘shallow’ at all about this woman’s physical standard, just as there’s nothing ‘shallow’ about a man preferring women with a nice rack, perfect ass and a flat stomach.
What makes her ‘shallow’ is her feminine expectation of a man to be obligated to “friendship” with her in spite of her rejection of him physically. Men reject women based on physical standards simply by not pursuing them romantically, but there’s never an obligation of friendship associated with it.
Can you imagine the man that tried shaming a woman for not casually sleeping with him after he’d told her he’d never commit to her? That’s what those girls who push for friendship are doing.
I don’t know that there was any implied obligation for friendship in her message, but there certainly was the expectation that it could even be possible after she essentially insults him. To me, the shallowness is in sending such a message in the first place…
My response would have been something like this:
Ah what a shame. You might be the perfect friend for me if not for that cold self-centered streak in how you go about online dating. With people like you around and sending me notes like that who needs bullies? Also, don’t think I haven’t accepted your worthless challenge. Unlike losing that excess fat you have, gaining height requires some truly painful procedures requiring one to break one’s own legs in a surgically controlled setting. I’ve begun to save up for the procedure so that insensitive people like yourself can continue to be insensitive without disturbing me.
Also, online dating is not necessary any more than personal ads in the newspaper were necessary for dating in the 1980s. Physical presence trumps anything. Online dating is a crutch and a waste of money.
My response would have been:
“I’m sorry, I’d like to be friends with you due to our shared interests, but your tits are too small. Short guys like me like to have something decent to watch at our level, even with our friends. Sorry!”
The hell is it with women and height anyway? Why do chicks like talk guys? Is it a dominance thing?
All I can figure is it’s left over from the caveman days where tall and big equals you get to eat and get taken care of. Plus in our society tall equals better and god forbid the little princess is seen with someone of lesser status. Also for the most part it’s the men that do the perusing and women can just sit back and accept the offer of the highest bidder.
Faust, your question has already been answered by Mr. Cranium, but if you would like a woman’s perspective…
First of all, the woman in the OP was wrong for 2 reasons. If a woman needs to reject a man for whatever reason (and yes, most women spend a lot of their lives having to ‘filter’ out men, which means ‘rejection’. It is not fair on men, but that is how it is – we all know that, and is similar to how women should not be surprised men prefer younger, ‘hotter’ women), there was no need to point out that this was due to his height. As many have pointed out, it was unkind, and it’s not like he can do anything about his height…
In any case, there are some women who like shorter men.
Case in point:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2252626/Worlds-tallest-teen-girl-towers-boyfriend-enjoy-romantic-walk-Brazilian-beach.html
The second thing she did wrong (as eloquently described below by Sir Alan) is her asking him to be her *friend*. This is perhaps the greater crime because she, in one fell swoop sends him the message that he is not ‘man enough’ for HER, but she also wants to keep him orbiting around her, denying him the chance to go find another woman who will see him as the prize.
I think this is TPM’s beef re this woman. If it is, I agree with him.
Wanting a taller man is not a fault of womanhood, as I am sure you all know.
It is a feature, not a bug, so to speak.
It is perhaps an emotional/illogical thing, because the original evolutionary motives for it (the need for protection, survival, etc.) are not in play in today’s world anymore. But for many women, this is reduced to a *symbolic* thing, which is why a woman who claims to like a taller man may well end up with a shorter man if he can mimic ‘tall’ by displays of confidence.
(For some women, even this will not work – but hey, you win some, you lose some).
But for me, the biggest lesson of this post is this: Women will always have more opportunities to reject than men. It is Nature’s way, given our respective biologies. However, the WAY a woman goes about the rejection is what distinguishes one woman from another.
If a woman rejects a man in a classy way, he will still feel the pain of rejection, I am sure. But at least, he won’t be eternally wounded.
Similarly, a woman being rejected by a man will have a lot of respect for him if he is not brutal about it.
If that 26 year old man were my brother, I too would advise him (as most of you men have) to simply walk away. He can never win THIS woman back. If anyone really wants to know why from a woman’s perspective (but I suspect you all know this already anyway), I could write a very long essay on this, but TPM’s blog is already slow-loading as it is 🙂
The only path to reclaiming his dignity in this type of scenario is to walk away. He doesn’t know this woman, he is not in any way connected to her. He loses absolutely nothing by walking away from her.
Women always have more opportunities … to reject men for sex.
Men will always have more opportunities … to reject women for commitment.
Ain’t equilibrium wonderful!
P Ray,
“Women always have more opportunities … to reject men for sex.
Men will always have more opportunities … to reject women for commitment.
Ain’t equilibrium wonderful!”
True enough.
But the problem is, NEITHER sex nor commitment happens if the woman is unreceptive at the beginning.
The woman still rejects much more than the man simply because what he wants (sex) is requested BEFORE what she wants (commitment).
Except in the case of very desperate women who want a proposal on the first date, lol.
So I think my statement is still true, certainly in this age-group (20’s).
I don’t think this is fair to men, but that is the nature of the SMP.
What’s even worse for men is that their rejection rate (to commit to women, when the man is in his 40s and 50s) may still be less than a woman’s rejection rate (to requests for sex in her early 20s).
So most men still just don’t get to do as much rejection when they reach their peak as the average woman will when she is at her peak.
Part of this phenomenon is ‘man-made’ (i.e. a social construct) in the sense that men still want sex, whereas not as many women want or need commitment as before (ergo the high single mother rate). If a woman has only ever gotten sex in her eternal serach for commitment, then she is now ‘programmed’ for more sex, and wouldn’t even know how to handle commitment, if it were offered to her. Some will come to this realisation and keep looking for short term ‘fixes’. Others will swear blind they are looking for ‘commitment’, but they know they are lying to themselves.
So a *particular* man selling commitment is not as ‘valuable’ as a *particular* woman selling sex.
I am choosing my words carefully here – the net effect of all this ‘easy sex’ is that for the *total population*, commitment becomes more expensive in the long run (but only for those who genuinely want it, which would be a small proportion of the total population) as sex gets cheaper…
But that’s a different discussion.
^ Or he could always try this angle:
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/07/23/hypergamous-arms-race-revenge-of-the-nerds/
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/10/12/is-marcos-evil-for-conning-women-looking-to-trade-sex-for-financial-security/
One important thing to note from that discussion is that ?few/none? of the women thought that choosing the average guy last disqualified them from honest commitment.
And that they were as fresh as an 18 year old even if they were pushing 40.
Men defensively become players later, and good ones, especially if women treated them like crap and they understood that the same women would not ask for “respect” from a guy they really wanted.
In short, the preferred customers got discounts.
This rejection was not cruel because she specified that he was too short in relation to her preference but because of the implications of what her first and second sentences. It is one thing to reject a man by saying she doesn’t find him physically attractive, but it is another realm entirely to reject him based on his height. By saying that he isn’t tall enough for her with the combo of LBJF, she is in effect practicing a dehumanizing form of castration. She is essentially saying that he isn’t “man enough” for her. In her eyes, he’s not a “real man”. By even suggesting the notion of friendship after a rejection of him as a person, his identity as a sexual being is nonexistent in her mind and as a result, his identity as a man is gone. She how now reduced him to that of an asexual emotional tampon on which to endlessly dump her “first world problems”. His feelings and concerns as a man are an irrelevant aside to the grand stage that is her life.
We as men never lose the capability to see women, no matter how average – as women. Many women have the tendency to toss their male friends, especially male friends that don’t get pussy as asexual beings who will always be around.
I wonder if this is “reverse negging”? Mixing a compliment and an insult to get a disoriented response? Or maybe it’s another stupid mentality.
Lemme lay out a bit of a different take on this…
It was rude to us because we’re guys. Women seem not to have the same brain to mouth filter as guys. There is a simple reason in my experience. Most women rarely are ever in a situation where the things they say can lead to a physical confrontation. Worst case scenario she gets her boyfriend in a fight via her big mouth.
Every guy over 18 knows that in the world of men it’s generally not a good idea to randomly start insulting strangers. Sometimes they will react in ways that you would find unpleasant.
Young white women from the ‘burbs are the worst at understanding this. They don’t realize that in certain social situations and socioeconomic environs rude or harsh words can have very bad immediate consequences. In addition to a bubble of insulated middle class physical security they also grow up in a bubble of constant validation and ego stroking. If they are pretty, they have likely never had anyone dress them down for their behavior or words.
In regards to the guy that this happened to and some thoughts in general:
Yep, she was rude, disrespectful and thoughtless by our code of what is right and wrong in behavior. Yet is she all that different from the bulk of any other young white woman from the ‘burbs you’re going to encounter in your dating career? Probably not.
In any case, are we seriously expecting a woman in 2013 to consistently operate by “man code” or with the same decorum and social intelligence of the women of decades past? That would be nice, but it seems a touch unrealistic, again the younger they are the more so.
I don’t expect my retarded nephew to start busting out Trigonometry. I certainly don’t operate under the presumption that the vast majority of middle class American women that I encounter today are going to be in a default mode of being feminine, chaste, polite and pleasant with good social intelligence and manners. I wish it were so, but it ain’t so. So I don’t get butt hurt about it.
Well, what could the guy in this story do?
He could nuke her and call her out, tell her what a bitch she is, give her what for. Does that get him laid? Nope.
He could ignore her. Does that get him laid? No.
He could take 5 seconds and make a low investment pitch back to her and see what happens.
I believe she messaged him because she’s interested in him, but yes the height is a problem for her. Same as it would be if they were in a bar scenario together. People look around and see what physically piques their interest first. So, being online might actually give him some different opportunities to display value that he might not get in real life where a woman may reject him out of hand based on his height before he ever gets to spit some Charisma her way.
I translate her message from girl-ese as: “I’m interested in you because you seem like a great guy and I do find you attractive, but I have a problem with the height, help me overcome this hesitation I have.”
I see an opportunity for him. Now you may say, “Yeah but she’s a piece of shit for saying something like that.” Yep, she might be, or she might be just like any other ‘burb girl or perhaps she thought she was being humorous in an effort to break the ice and didn’t realize how it might come off to the receiver. (You do realize that most women don’t directly approach guys, so when they do, they often can suck at it and say dumb stuff right?)
“Yeah but she’s not quality.” Maybe or maybe not, but let’s think about our screening filters here for a minute and what “quality” we might be looking for.
If you are a young guy, or a man over a certain age, and you are not looking for a wife, a mother for your kids or looking for an LTR why screen chicks like you are? If you are just looking for some fun or a casual thing you really don’t need to know about her religious convictions, her future plans, credit score or what kind of mother she might make, etc. You need to know the following:
1. Does she pass the boner test? You would hit that and she’s not gross and doesn’t do gross things that turn you off.
2. Do you want to put in whatever level of work required to have sex with her?
3. Running under the assumption that like many girls these days she will have some level of mouth-dumb and a neurotic tendency or two, is her level of crazy or dumb tolerable for the short term duration that you intend to spend with her?
4. All things being equal, will she be fun to hang out with, aside from any annoying but tolerable items in number 3 such that you get something positive out of the interaction?
5. Does she have any incurable STDs? (giggles – other than the HPV all these chicks have these days)
6. Does she have a criminal background or Meth problem?
That’s about it for a casual F-Buddy screening or STR. Some might say only 1 through 3 are enough. Up to you.
You can “make your point” and show these “bitches” what’s up, or you can approach it from the standpoint that every chick (especially the younger they are) is likely going to at some time or another say something dumb, do something dumb, shit test a bit, be rude initially, etc. Just blow through that stuff like you didn’t even notice. Eyes on the prize.
Telling her off might feel good, and it might make you think you are striking a blow for men everywhere. Maybe. But more likely than not you could be passing up a potentially willing filly while looking for a unicorn. Hey, by all means keep looking for the unicorn but don’t pass up opportunities that fall in your lap or that you come across which pass the boner test and have a tolerable level of crazy.
If you are looking for an LTR or marriage, yeah, at first glance this chick from the OP story is probably not it. However, if you think she’s hot in your eyes and all you want is a crack at smashing that ass, then roll with it player and get down to your business and take your shot.
Even if you are looking for “the one” you can bang girls and have casual arrangements while you pursue “the one.” Don’t worry Mrs. Right won’t think any less of you for your previous sexual conquests along the way. Quite the contrary, and if she does, just tell her that all those other chicks helped you to become the person you are today so that you would be perfect for when you found Mrs. Right. The Lolz! The Hamster turned back on itself.
Anyway…
I came to this these thoughts in reflection of my own personal situation. I’m not looking to get married again, I’m not looking to have more kids, I’m not looking to move some broad in my house. Yet I was screening every chick for qualities like I was intending those things. As if screening guarantees anything or future behavior, but that’s a conversation for another day.
Now what I’m looking for is pretty much my 1-6 list above which focuses on if she is attractive to me, fun, not annoying and not scary kind of crazy. Kind of helps keep it in perspective when you are clear with yourself what you want out of your time and effort with women. It also greatly expands your potential pool of candidates if you are not rejecting them out of hand as if you were looking for someone suitable to marry when you have no intention of doing so.
Did I lower my standards? No. Not at all. I won’t be pursuing whales or women that I find unattractive or who eat their boogers in front of me, etc. I just don’t need to filter them on some whole big made up list about what I imagine would make a good wife, mother or LTR girlfriend. Hey she’s got great tits! Perfect. Wow she loves to bake. Unexpected bonus.
So, the question is, what’s your goal at this time? Once you know that, see if your methods of operation are consistent with your stated goal and if they are helping you to achieve it. Maybe your goals are one of the below:
1. Get laid with the most attractive chicks you can pull at the present moment and enjoy hanging out with fun chicks when it suits your schedule.
2. Get laid while separating girls who are only good for causal interest from ones who have potential for something more because your long term goal is an LTR.
3. Be celibate while you quest for “the one”
4. Join a monastery.
I dunno. That’s up to you. Any of the above or something else is a perfectly valid decision for your life. Just make sure your goals, your filters and your actions are congruent to increase the chances that you actually wind up getting what you want. You can always adjust your goals as you go along and hey, if you do find that unicorn out there, well good on you.
That is all.
Take it easy,
ZLX1
Oh, and just so no one misunderstands, I am not advocating that you become some chick’s punching bag, emotional. verbal or otherwise, or that you make any kind of habit out of allowing random broads to be rude or disrespectful to you.
I’m just commenting that in this particular scenario, I think she was actually interested in him so a low investment message back wouldn’t be out of the bounds of possibility if he was interested in pursuing a bang with her.
My other thoughts were to generate a discussion that given the general state of female behavior these days, coupled with your personal goals, is your approach to all this congruent with your self identified goals?
Agree 100%. Look at the situation dispassionately to see if there is anything salvageable. If not, walk away and don’t look back. That’s how a man handles his business. Dwelling on hurt feelings and revenge fantasy scenarios is not.
“Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.”
Robert E Howard – Conan the Barbarian in The Tower of the Elephant
Well said my friend. You and Nate (several posts below) definitely hit the nail on the head.
Sorry about your friend, but my experience has been that the angriest, most resentful men are the ones who can’t get the women they want, but that the meanest, nastiest and most insensitive women are the ones who get all the male attention.
Maybe if men like you and your friend paid more attention to the average (or even less than average looking) women who try to take pride in her appearance (not fat, grooms and dresses well), you will not be treated this way. Sure, men can’t grow taller, but neither can women change her bone structure or facial features.
Men reap what they sow, and in this case and many others, they have done exactly that ! So my sympathy from me.
Actually, we do. Men notice women far more than women notice men.
EXACTLY!
I’m soooo tired of hearing about “involuntary celibacy” from men who refuse to date women who are less-than-totally-sexy.
Just get with an average chick — problems solved!
Jill dear unless you’ve never turned down anyone that’s ever asked you out because he was too (fill in the blank) you’re a hypocrite. So you mean to tell me you’ve NEVER blown anyone off because he was too fat/short/ugly/poor/weird/nerdy/creepy ad nauseam? You must be the first.
Or are you stating that because I’m not the perfect specimen I’m just supposed to “settle” for whatever troglodyte 300 pounder with 5 kids living in a single wide I can get and be so lucky to have her because I set my sights “too high”
Are you for real?
Can’t reply directly to you, for some reason, Richard Cranium, but I’d like to address a few of your points.
1. In fact I’ve never turned anyone down for being too short or too fat. I’ve never even been *approached* by an overweight man, let alone had the opportunity to turn one down. As for short men, I dated a man at 5’5″ for a year – and we didn’t part because of his height; we parted over religious differences. In fact, I actually *like* men who are weird and nerdy, and “creepiness” isn’t about what’s on the outside — it’s a character thing. Believe it or not, there are plenty of women out there who care a lot more about what’s on the inside than what’s on the outside. I’m not “the first,” I believe I’m actually in the majority. Open up your eyes: There are very, very, very many women out there who value your inner character far more than they value any superficial aspects.
However, if you’re thoroughly convinced that all women are hypergamous harpies trolling for George Clooney clones, your mind is going to filter out all the decent women who are literally everywhere around you, every single day. It’s interesting you think that the fact that I’m neither superficial nor hypergamous is a rare thing, but it’s very telling on your part.
Well, you guys are always harping on about how women ought to “settle” — so is it really such a bad thing if you need to “settle” too?
I don’t think it’s wrong for you to have standards — that’s not what I’m trying to say at all. If a woman doesn’t appeal to you, you aren’t wrong at all for rejecting her. But at the same time, don’t criticize a woman for doing exactly the same thing. If a woman rejects a man because he’s obese, has children already, and is living in poverty, this doesn’t make her “HYPERGAMOUS!!!” (Yawn, the entire idea of “female hypergamy” is such a giant load of bullshit.) Rather, it makes her Just. Like. You.
Female hypergamy is as real and omnipresent as water. The online message I quoted is pure and unadulterated female hypergamy. I have read thousands of women’s online dating profiles and at least 80% of them have some example of female hypergamy as evidenced by lists of requirements that a man must meet just to get even a whiff of romantic consideration.
Go ahead, yawn. You’re obviously a special snowflake. As I tell everyone doing the dating thing – it’s easier to figure out the rules than it is to find the exception.
Ok I’ll address this.
My last GF (who I still pine over but that’s another story for another day) wasn’t a 9 or a 10. She was a 7 on her best day. Mid-40’s, dead-end sales job, a little heavier than I like. What did I love about her you ask? Simple.
1. She was feminine, classy and carried herself well.
2. She was fun to be around and didn’t mind doing cheap (or free) activities (which was good because I was dead broke at the time.)
3. She wasn’t a loudmouth bitchy know it all broad. She wasn’t a wallflower mind you but she wasn’t obnoxious and in your face.
4. She has a great smile and didn’t have that typical “sour milk” face that so many females have. Loved to go dancing and have fun.
Oh did I mention she was foreign? First generation Indonesian so she fit my “dark and exotic” preference. That’s preference not requirement.
As I mentioned above men have wider parameters in what they find attractive. She wasn’t going to be the next Victoria Secrets model but (and this is big pay attention) despite not being a 10 her other qualities made her sexy to me. Many guys including myself have said they’d rather be with an awesome 6-7 than a high maintenance 9 any day.
First generation American I meant to say her parents were immigrants from Indonesia.
Not to be an ass, but unless you’re an 8 or more, this was just a great girl who was actually in your league…
Jules for the record the relationship fell apart when the business I was partners in went south and I had to move back home. We tried to keep it long distance when I joined a touring band soon after and was back in the area often. She was also less than honest about her status with a couple of other guys when we were long distance and I finally called it off.
Did I really love her and thought she was “it”? Yup. However life takes you in some directions you don’t expect and you gotta roll with the changes. I have a whole different life now than I did 2 years ago and I wouldn’t trade it for anything but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t miss her. A lot actually we don’t even talk anymore and I have no idea what she’s up to last I heard she was dating some dude.
Man, I really am sorry. If she was really seeing other people though… eh, it’s truly a good thing it came to the surface.
TPM has it exactly right. Men do notice, and try to date “average” women. Sometimes with success, sometimes not.
But let’s put Just Saying’s and Jill’s comments in the correct context. When Just Saying says “men” she doesn’t mean the average guy. She means “why don’t the high-value, attractive, interesting, successful men that I find most attractive pay attention to me.
When Jill says she doesn’t want to hear about an InCel guy she means “Hey, I wouldn’t give the guy the time of day, but there are plenty of women uglier than me, so why won’t they leave me alone?”
Hypergamy and solipsism tell every time.
Spot on.
HAD TO COMMENT, I know this situation all too well.
Nope, most men don’t have “enough sense not to send messages like that.” I’ve gotten more messages THAN I CAN COUNT from men where it’s like “Hey, you seem cool, but I’ve just read that you’re 6’3″ and I therefore find you extremely unattractive. Can we still be friends?” I don’t know why people send messages like that! Women who are less-than-desirable in terms of height and body size get it pretty badly!
I am not at all overweight. But, I am 6’3″ and built like a viking. How, exactly, do I “lose” that?
Tired of blogs like these trying to hold men and women to two different standards. Either it’s right to select based on looks, or it isn’t: Pick one, and stick to it. If it’s wrong for women to be shallow when it comes to a man’s looks, then it’s wrong for men to behave that way, too. As a woman in the dating game, I’ve quickly found out how sickeningly shallow a huge majority of men seem to be. Yes, I agree that rejecting a man for being too short is shallow. But rejecting a woman for being jacked and towering over you is just as shallow.
This one’s for your bucket list, Infantry. She’s a bit angry though, so watch out.
Ahaha. Gold. Thanks Mate.
Rejecting someone based on looks or height isn’t necessarily shallow, but preemptively rejecting them out of the blue in an email certainly is…
I wouldn’t say rejecting someone based on looks or height is shallow. I wouldn’t go out of my way, though, and tell women they are too tall or too ugly. That’s just rude. I would just not pursue them. Her email was actually a double insult by rejecting him physically and then offering to be friends. It’s been my experience that women just don’t understand that when a guy gets that offer he has an emotional reaction that would be similar to the reaction a woman would have if a guy told her she wasn’t good enough to marry or be his girl friend but she could have sex with him.
Yah, we understand. It feels the same for us, when we get that offer of “I don’t want you sexually, but let’s be friends.” It’s a devastating double rejection. Women experience all the same feelings that you have — we aren’t really such different creatures, you know?
Jill:
Your description of yourself (6’3″ and built like a Viking) puts all your comments into their proper context.
You approach dating with a much more open mind than most other women. You do so because you have no other alternative. There are only certain kinds of men who will date you (men who have no problem with your size and bulk; and men who are even larger and taller than you are). The number of men avaliable to you and willing to date you is small; so you date men who show interest. You can probably get good looking men; but they are available to you only for pump & dump.
By contrast, your more diminutive sisters have the world as their oyster. They have been allowed to call the shots in the SMP for years now; and they do. They date and screw the hottest men for as long as they can before starting to look for commitment.
Actually, deti, I approach dating with an open mind because my parents raised me to be a good woman with solid values. My parents taught me to treat everyone (men, women, everyone) with love, kindness, compassion and respect. My parents have taught me since birth to never judge a person on what’s skin deep. My approach to dating is a result of everything my Mom and Dad raised me to be. I wouldn’t know about being “pumped and dumped” because I don’t believe in casual sex, and I have never had sex outside of a monogamous long term relationship.
It’s curious that you’re so quick to judge me as morally bankrupt because I have a vagina. Why is that?
Deti, what exactly was the point of your post? What point were you trying to convey?
If you thought I was somehow boasting about being “a hot commodity,” I want to make it very clear: I know all too well that women who are 6’3″ are very unappealing to men and suffer continual rejection. That was the reason why I made my initial post. I wanted to show the shorter guys here that the height issue isn’t exclusive to men.
As Deti has pointed out, there is a massive amount of media available to women for commiseration, advice, validation, whatever. This is the Manosphere and its authors create content for a primarily male audience. This is where men converse with the brutal honesty only men can share. Women are welcome to read, learn, and comment but the calls of “it’s tough for women, too” are pretty much ignored because it’s distracting to the essence of what men are attempting to achieve by sharing the hard truths about attraction, dating, and relationships.
Jill:
I did not say you were morally bankrupt. I said no such thing. I did not say you engaged in pump and dumps. I said if you wanted to date the very top men, they would probably be available to you only for pump and dumps.
The point of my comment was to point out the sexual marketplace realities of dating for a woman of your dimensions. Most women prefer to date men who are taller and larger. Since you are 6 foot 3 inches and built like a Viking (your description of yourself), the pool of men who would be ideal for you is infinitesimally small, and they will likely have options besides you. So in order for you to date and do it successfully, you need to enlarge the pool of potential dating candidates. That would require you to date men who are smaller and shorter than you are. But most men probably won’t want to do that, so you’ll have to limit yourself to the men who won’t have a problem with it.
The only “judging” I was doing was not of you; but of the SMP in which you and I operate.
A big part of the problem in discussing SMP issues is women objecting so strenuously to any objective observation one makes about the SMP or about the people operating in it. Any discussion of a woman, or a body type, or the manner in which women act, or women in general, is met with shrieks of “You’re JUDGING me! You can’t do that! Judge not lest ye be judged!”
Well, too bad. I judge.
Jill:
I would just add also that your height and body type makes you an outlier, beyond the average. There are very, very few women who have your height and body type. Your dating experiences are not at all typical. For this reason, general conclusions simply cannot be drawn from what you can tell us. That doesn’t make your conclusions worthless; it just means they don’t apply to the general population of women.
But Private Man’s commenter in the original post IS typical. Men get rejected for being too short all the time, even if they are of average height and even if they are the same height as the woman. It’s Manosphere 101 that women in general want men who are taller and larger than they are.
Jill:
One last thing: It’s also axiomatic that women have far, FAR more physical qualifiers for men than men have for women. Women’s physical attraction filters are much, much narrower than men’s are. Women’s requirements for men’s physical attributes are FAR more exacting than men’s are for women.
For a woman, he’s gotta be this tall, not be balding, not have a beer gut, have chick muscles, have a nice ass, not have manboobs, not have hair on his ass, back or shoulders, not smell bad, have trimmed nose hair, and properly manscaped, and on and on and on ad nauseum, ad infinitum.
For a man, all we ask is that she not be grossly overweight.
Jill:
You also believe that because YOU approach dating the way you do (with an open mind, taking essentially what you can get); well, all other girls must have it just as tough as you do.
No. This is wrong. Not even close. The women I’ve seen, even average girls, are extremely selective until they get to be around 26 or 28. Then they scramble for the nearest beta as the desperation sets in and The Wall comes into sharper and clearer focus.
I would have sent her a message back saying “Well, actually I am 6’2 but I hate shallow people that judge me for being tall.”
Holy hell! I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be able to resist coming back with “Nah, I have enough friends, but feel free to contact me again after you lose a few pounds”, even if she wasn’t fat.
Damn, y’all.
Yup, yup, that’s what I say to all the guys who reject me:
I tell them “I’m committed to a healthy lifestyle and I don’t want to have pudgy friends derailing me.”
It amuses me greatly that a majority of men trying to date online are overweight, and yet they judge women so harshly for committing the same sin. I’d wager a guess that many of the men posting comments here are fat and blobby. Privateman is probably rather large and tubby, too. There are a huge, huge, huge, huge number of men who are pugdgy lardballs and in fact, the fit and slim ones are in the minority.
Teapot! Kettle! Black!
Women and men can lose weight. Men can’t grow.
But men can learn Charisma and women can learn femininity.
So, cupcake, lose the weight and learn to be feminine.
For the record Annie I’m far from fat quite the opposite actually and regularly pass for much younger than 45. But I’m one of those short guys you women hate so much that’s why this discussion’s struck such a chord with me
So I can’t reply to either of these comments for some reason? I’m replying to myself:
1. Privateman, “Women and women can lose weight?” Men can’t lose weight? Are we trying to hold overweight men and overweight women to two different standards? If a woman can lose weight, a man can, too. What’s with all the “cupcake” references in your post?
2. Richard Cranium: I didn’t say anything about short guys. You’re reading words that aren’t there. I didn’t express any dislike of shorter guys, but the fact that you thought you read that is telling. Therefore, I have some sage advice for you, Richard Cranium, and I’d like you to consider this carefully:
I think you’re very insecure about your height. I think your insecurity causes you to project all kinds of stuff onto the women you’re meeting. I think you may tend to leap the conclusion that “most” women hate short men, and you’re possibly judging every woman you meet as someone who’s poised to reject you based on height.
However, you need to be aware that QUALITY women don’t evaluate men so superficially. A QUALITY woman will care about what’s on the inside. She won’t care about silly superficial things like height. You may argue that such women hardly exist, but I’ll argue this: By focusing so overly much on the idea that most women are so judgey about height, you’re actually building in a lot of mental blinders. If you repeatedly tell yourself day after day that “most women don’t like short guys!” then after a while, those are the only women you’re going to see. You reality really does tend to reflect the things you keep telling yourself day in and day out. If you repeatedly tell yourself that all women are hypergamous, superficial, only want tall men, etc, that’ll eventually become the only kind of woman you’ll ever see.
I understand that a lot of men here probably really and truly believe that “most women are hypergamous and fixated on superficial aspects,” but you have to remember: These blogs are full of lovelorn men who repeatedly tell themselves terribly destructive and toxic things. In many ways, yes, your beliefs really do shape the reality that you are experiencing.
Yeah, there are women out there who care very much about dating a man who’s 6’0″+. However, I really and truly think these women are in the minority. And why on earth would you want anything to do with such a woman? What if you suddenly woke up tomorrow and were tall, and all these women suddenly started flocking to you? Could you really be happy, knowing that they only valued you because of your height? Why do you want a woman who cares so much about something as meaningless and as superficial as height? Why does it matter if such superficial women reject you? They’re the ones living in a spiritual wasteland where height is a make-or-break thing. Their loss, isn’t it?
I agree that the majority of men are overweight. Obesity is an epidemic that is killing us all. For the record, I used to be overweight. I’ve had that struggle and I’ve conquered it when I lost 70 pounds some years ago and I’ve kept the weight off. One of my blog-buddies and real life friends is Phat Guy Fitness and he’s an amazing inspiration for many guys doing the fitness thing. The Manosphere is about men helping men to be better men, including fitness.
Wow Annie it’s amazing that you were able to totally figure me all out from just a few postings on a blog that’s a rare skill! /sarcasm
Like most women you know nothing about what dating is like for men. You’ve fallen into this notion that “Well it’s just the women you go after we’re not all like that.”
As far as your opinion that height isn’t a big deal to women a quick Google search for “women hate short men” yields almost 30 MILLION results yet “men hate fat women” yields only 11 million.
That’s nearly a 3-1 ratio for you math majors. As an aside a good friend owns some niche dating sites and his most profitable site is the one that caters to guys that like bigger girls. Something tells me if he had a site for girls that like short guys his profit margin wouldn’t be so good.
As far as my insecurity about my height you’re partially right. It’s not women however, it’s society in general that looks down on us as if we’re some sort of deformed monsters because we don’t “measure up” (pun intended.
Do me a favor and watch this video http://vimeo.com/6780321 for a perspective on what it’s like.
Privateman, congrats on the weight loss! 70 lbs is about my goal too, and I’m impressed! Hearing that you managed to keep it off and maintain for so long is really motivating and reassuring to hear. I’m on my own weight-loss journey myself, so my hat is off to you! I support anyone who supports a healthy lifestyle, and thanks for the blog link!
Richard Cranium: I didn’t claim to have you all figured out, but you have posted a number of things that’ve really jumped out at me as someone who’s struggling with height issues.
Of course I don’t know what it’s like to experience the dating world as a man. I’ve never been a man, and I have no firsthand access to what it’s like for you. At the same time, though, you don’t know what dating is like for women. You’ve never been a woman, and you have no firsthand access to the things we experience. I think you imagine that it’s much, much, much easier than it actually is. Even thin, beautiful, young women seem to have a tough go of it. The truth is, finding love is incredibly difficult — for everyone, whether they fit the ideal or not.
That video was like a page out of my dating life. Dating sure isn’t easy for me, I face constant rejection. I’m pretty darn overweight, and society definitely looks down on us fat women as if we’re deformed monsters (was the word you used “troglodyte”?). I know what’s it’s like to face an endless stream of rejection (this week, I sent 200 messages on match.com and got 2 replies. Math major, that’s 99% rejection!) I know that it’s possible for me to lose weight, while it isn’t possible for you to grow — but even if I lose weight and men come flocking to me, I’ll always know that whoever I end up with will only love me and value me because my body size falls within certain parameters, and this makes me sad. It makes me sad to know that so many men and women so willing to write others off for being too short or too fat.
As for the sites that cater to fat women — I’ve tried them. There are sites that cater to a certain sexual fetish that some men have for larger women, yes, and those sites are STILL full of men who only value the external and are looking to either satisfy a sexual fetish or take sexual advantage of women they think are desperate. They aren’t good places to find a relationship. For you, the equivalent would probably be — imagine a site full of women with zero sexual interest in you who are looking to use you for your resources. It probably wouldn’t really be what you were hoping for, right?
Once I’ve lost all this weight, I’ll be well into my thirties (don’t want to gain it back; doing it slowly), and we all know how unappealing the over-thirties women are. I’ll see how that goes, trying to date as a thin, shrivelled-up woman over 30 — wish me loads of luck, I’ll still be far from the ideal.
The fact is, dating is brutal for anyone who isn’t the ideal specimen.
Even for people who are the ideal specimen, I don’t think it’s necessarily easy. Men like George Clooney probably attract a lot of shallow gold-diggers who are only out for the status and money. The folly in your thinking is the idea that it’s easy for ideal people to attract partners that they would want. Very pretty and very young women do attract a lot of male attention, but they also attract many predators. There are enough bad men out there to make dating a pretty rocky and perilous road for young and pretty women. (I was young and thin and pretty in college, and it was not easy!) Even if you fit the ideal, it’s not smooth sailing — for anyone. I think it’s important to realize that finding real, true love is a very hard thing, for everyone. Everyone is in the same boat that you’re in. Everyone is having a tough go of it. Even people who fit that ideal mold are struggling, because genuine love is a tough thing to find no matter who you are.
So, I think it’s wrong to say “You have no idea what dating is like for a man” as if you know what dating is like for women. You don’t know what dating is like for women. It’s damnably hard for women. It’s damnably hard for everybody.
Take heart — tons of shorter men find good relationships. One of my very best friends just got engaged, and he’s 5’3″ and his soon-to-be-wife is awesome.
Annie:
You’ve written a lengthy, heartfelt reply. Allow me to respond a bit.
1. I am sure fat women do have some problems in dating. So do short women, tall women, sluts, nonsluts, career women, poor women, black women, Latinas, etc. To be honest, I’m really not too interested in the travails and tribulations of women’s dating problems. You have Cosmo, ABCCBSNBSFOXCNNWAPONYTCHITRIBLATIMESOPRAHOXYGENLIFETIME to cater to your every need in that regard.
Men have the Androsphere.
2, Rejection is a fact of life for men- – not only in dating, but in work, client seeking, job seeking, and business building. Men learn at a very, very early age to deal with rejection. A lot of women don’t learn what it’s like to be rejected or to lose something until they are around 30 and can’t get men for dates or sex like they used to.
3. “imagine a site full of women with zero sexual interest in you who are looking to use you for your resources. It probably wouldn’t really be what you were hoping for, right?”
Annie, we don’t have to imagine such a site. The ENTIRE WORLD is a zone of women with very little sexual interest in us who are looking to use us for our resources. And no, it isn’t what we hoped for.
4. You are assuming that women are out there dating for love. I very much doubt that most women in their 20s date with the express purpose of looking for a husband. It looks to me that most are out there looking to hook up with the most attractive men they can find; and if they can’t snag the man for a commitment, they’ll settle for the sex.
By the same token, you’re assuming all men are out there dating for sex. Some are; most aren’t.
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Men reject women all the time because of physical characteristics beyond their control. It has happened to me countless times, and I can tell you they weren’t nearly as nice as that girl.Why should we women be any different?
Because time is not on your side.
Because you have probably vastly overestimated your attractiveness and your value.
Because there aren’t nearly enough attractive men to go around to all the women who want one. And odds are you aren’t going to get one of them.
Because the odds are also that the attractive man you want has options more attractive than you. When she comes along, you’ll be out; or relegated to second or third place in the harem.
And I guess time is on your side, right? Because you men don’t age. I’ll tell you what: you, like most men, are deluded. Once and for all: hot young women don’t like old, smelly, paunchy, ugly slobs (unless they have lots and lots of money and don’t mind being cuckholded by the pool guy)
Maria:
Actually, time is on men’s side. Men do age; they just age better than women do.
True; hot young women don’t like old men, by and large, unless they are superrich. But the fact is that those hot young women won’t be hot or young forever.
And men of a certain age and with resources and status are growing increasingly disinterested in sharing those resources or status with women, except on a short term, at will basis. She boinks the pool guy, she hits the bricks.
enjoy your cats, maria.
Because even if you get one of those attractive men, the odds are you won’t be able to keep him.
Men do reject women. You are correct. However, not nearly in the numbers that women reject males. Here is a snippet from an article from a few years back regarding reproduction rates. The reality is brutal for males.
“The “single most underappreciated fact about gender,” he said, is the ratio of our male to female ancestors. While it’s true that about half of all the people who ever lived were men, [b]the typical male was much more likely than the typical woman to die without reproducing.[/b] Citing recent DNA research, Dr. Baumeister explained that today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men. Maybe 80 percent of women reproduced, whereas only 40 percent of men did.”
Your boy missed out on a decent chance to get some. Look this is pretty much standard stuff these days with chicks, especially the “witty” ones. She messaged him, told him his prof is awesome, so she’s obviously interested and would definitely be open to seeing him if he can just put her height issues to ease with some banter displaying his confidence.
A witty response such as some suggested above, “hey I’m big where it counts. [transition]” etc, and boom he’s in. You don’t have to marry her, shit, but it’s practically a free notch, she’s begging for it by giving such a ripe opportunity to come back to her. The counter punch is where it’s at.
Also relevant to some of the butthurt going on-
Do you want to get laid or make a point?
http://nexxtlevelup.com/game/do-you-want-to-get-laid-or-make-a-point
Absolutely
Finally, I was beginning to think that I was the only one who saw an easy fuck here. For shorter guys like me, the quick, witty, and laid-back response is one of our greatest tools. Sometimes I use “Hey we’re all the same height when we’re laying down.”
– 5foot6stillgettinchicks
Aye Nate, it’s not butthurt, it’s “is she retarded?”
To a vapid, corn-fed cow like that, these qualities would be nugatory
“Selection and Basic Training
First Stage
There are usually 30 applicants for every place available at this stage. Potential recruits must satisfy the following requirements before proceeding to the second stage:
Age between 17 and 22
Height at least 5 feet 3 inches (1.60m)
Weight at least 7 stone 12 pounds (110 pounds, or 50 kilograms)
Good health
Educational requirement
Second stage
The second stage of the selection process lasts for 3 weeks. All candidates must pass the following tests in order to proceed further:
English grammar
Mathematics
Fitness test, which included exercises and a doko race (carrying 75 pounds of stones and run up a 4.2 kilometre long steep course)
Initiative test
Final interview
Third stage
This is a nine-month long training course that includes:
Language training (3 months)
Military skills
Western culture and customs
General skill at arms
Several fitness tests
Passing out
The graduation of successful recruits is marked by a passing out parade at the end of the basic training course. Based on their progress and results they are then allotted to various positions within the Brigade of Gurkhas.
Hell, back in Glasgow a man of “average” height like me is a full head taller than the natives, and I stride like a god among them. I can see across the whole street of commuters on the way between Queen St and Central Station without interruption. But the one lesson I’ve learned in life is not to assume I could ever survive an altercation with one. The lassie’s a pure fool, and there’s an end tae it.
And raise a glass to Rantin’ Rovin’ Robin, on this night. He kenn’d how tae manage a quine, and how tae tak a dram (a veritable giant, at 5’10”).
No one questioned Napoleon’s height when he ravaged Europe. And I bet Joe Pesci gets plenty of action – ‘so you think I’m funny?, think I’m some kind of clown?’ I bet if either of these guys had an OKC profile, you wouldn’t be thinking too much about the height thing.
Right, right, and Tom Cruise?
I can rattle off the names of dozens of hot male celebrities who fall shy of 6’0″. The truth is, women just aren’t as fixated on the height thing as so many men seem to think. 5’6″ isn’t even particularly “short.” When you say “short guys,” I’m not really thinking in the ballpark of 5’6″ (That’s actually more like “average height”), when you say “Short guys,” I’m thinking more like <5'0" — but, hey, look at Peter Dinklage.
[s]Yeah, and of course their wealth and celebrity do nothing to overcome the height issue. [/s]
I’m 5’7″. My wife is 5’10”. My height was definitely a black mark against me, but I more than made up for it in other ways at the time haha. She was 20 and very good looking, and hit on constantly. But anyway, tall women will rarely consider shorter men.
I don’t consider the attitude wrong, but if you’re saying that this woman wrote this out of the blue, that’s just outrageous solipsism. Sounds like a suitably asshole-ish reply could get some response, if she was worth the effort.
Tom Cruise is Tom Cruise. The Okc guy is not. You can’t compare non-celebs to celebrities and rock stars.
In light of the female commenters here, it’s helpful to revisit a few myths of the dating world that men and women share.
Men’s perception of women’s dating lives:
A fun-filled extravaganza of hot men who have hot sex with them. Women who slut it up with the hot men and cruelly nuke the beta schlubs. Any woman can get sex any time she wants.
Reality of women’s dating lives (according to women):
I have to fend off advances from creeps, weirdos, asshats and fat dudes ALL. THE. TIME. I get approached all the time, I know they just want to fuck me. I want sex with that guy and I’ll give him sex on the longshot chance that he might want to see me again, even though I know he probably won’t. But I’ve gotta at least try. So what if my N is 30? It’s not going to keep me from settling down when I’m 25, no 26, no 28, uhhh 29. The guys I want relationships with are the guys EVERY OTHER WOMAN wants a relationship with. The guys who want me are…. ewwwwwww.
Women’s perception of men’s dating lives:
You men have it so easy. You can have sex and no one judges you for it. You can basically do anything you want and no one can say shit about it. All of you are shallow and you only care about women’s looks and we’re just tits and ass to you.
REality of men’s dating lives:
Dating life? What’s that? Oh, you mean the handjob I got once from that chubby 4? Oh. Yeah. Sure. Hmmmm, let’s see. About 150 rejections. Two dates (that I paid for). Why rejected? Well, let’s see.
You’re too fat.
You’re too bald.
You’re too short.
You’re not physically attractive.
You work as a tire salesman. How proletarian.
You work as a physician. How bourgeois.
You work too much; I don’t have time to see you.
You don’t work enough; you’re too poor.
You tried to push me too hard for sex.
What’s the matter, you didn’t push me for sex. Are you gay?
You just want sex. You’re some kind of player.
You just want a relationship. I’m just not ready for a relationship right now.
Agreed.
Deti,
I posted this above but I want this attached to your excellent post just to drive home the reality behind these differences. From the New York Times:
http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/is-there-anything-good-about-men-and-other-tricky-questions/
“The “single most under appreciated fact about gender,” he said, is the ratio of our male to female ancestors. While it’s true that about half of all the people who ever lived were men, the typical male was much more likely than the typical woman to die without reproducing. Citing recent DNA research, Dr. Baumeister explained that today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men. Maybe 80 percent of women reproduced, whereas only 40 percent of men did.”
some great posts by Deti here.
I would like to point out a few other things to the female commentariat here.
There is a meme creeping in here that men can solve all their dating problems by just “getting with an average chick”. All a man has to do is widen out his dating prospects by lowering his field from 9s and 10s to 5s. If he does this, the argument apparently goes, the average manosphere denizen will get all the women he wants for whatever he wants: for relationships, or sex, or dating, or companionship, or whatever he wants.
This is absurd.
Ladies, you’re commenting on the dating and sexual habits of top men, the top 20 percent of men who by and large aren’t really part of the manosphere. You don’t see them here because they don’t need help or advice with dating or male self-improvement. What you’re really saying is that YOU want to date those top men because of your averageness, but either (1) you can’t because of your averageness; or (2) you have dated them short term but cannot keep them long term because those men have better options. So you’re telling these average men here to emulate the top men, and date “average chicks”.
Let’s look at that advice. A lot of the men here don’t really shoot that high, I would venture. Some of the men here have been rejected by, and divorced by, and abandoned by, quite average women. Some of the men here have dated women and been rejected by or married to women who were above average but who aged or enlarged into average or below average territory. Those women left their good men anyway.
A lot of the men here have been involved with, and maltreated by, very average women. How do I know this? Men’s attraction filters are very, very wide. At least 50 percent, and probably up to 70 percent, of all women he sees are at least minimally attractive enough to have sex with and for a second look. Sure, a guy wants a 10, but he lives in reality. He KNOWS the 10 is probably way above his weight. He’ll get with a 5 or 6. An 8 would be excellent. He’ll go for a 4 if there are no other options.
The problem is that the “average chick” has such an overinflated view of herself, based on the attention she gets from men and other women, that she thinks she is higher value than she is. She truly seems to think she can secure commitment from a top man by fucking him. But most of the time she fails. She doesn’t want the “average” man, and certainly isn’t going to fuck him just to secure his commitment. She isn’t going to do much of anything with the average man. So, she figures if she has to settle for an average guy, she’s going to extract from him as much commitment as she can before she holds her nose and gives up sex to him. She doesn’t really want this guy, but if it’s what she can get for marriage, well, he’ll just haffta do.
A lot of men are wising up to this and saying “No thanks. That deal is not attractive to me. I don’t want to be “settled” for, and I don’t want to be the consolation prize you get to take home because Alpha McGorgeous would fuck you but wouldn’t marry you.”
So this meme of “solve your problems and get with an average chick” is a nonstarter. We’re already doing that or have done that, only to get rejected because our front tooth is a little crooked or our dick is 8 inches instead of 8 1/2, or our 5 o’clock shadow is scratching you.
I remember reading the results of an experiment they did one time. They showed both men and women something like 100 photos of the opposite sex and asked what percentage was attractive. Men rated around two thirds of women as attractive while women rated only about a third of the men as attractive. Men always have to deal with the fact that a lot of the women they find attractive don’t find them attractive back. They have traditionally dealt with this by offering women something besides their looks to sweeten the deal in order to try to get a relationship with them. Something like “that guy you find handsome will sleep with you but won’t marry you and take care of you and your children like I will”. Women used to be more realistic and take that deal. Now they want to have their cake and eat it too. Men will pass on that deal. I found when I was in my twenties that women ignored me. Then when I was in my thirties all these single moms suddenly started being friendly to me. It was like they thought I would be eager to jump at the chance to marry them and help them raise the kids of some long gone alpha male. I passed.
Good.
I asked on a thread over at M3’s place (whoism3.wordpress.com) about why women will put out. The question was “do women really put out because they think they’ll get a relationship, or is it just about the sex?”
The couple of responses I got from women were “yes, we really do want the relationship, it isn’t just about fucking the hot guy for its own sake.”
THe later explanation I got was that women learned to exchange sex for commitment and many are still following the old model.
Of course, watch what women do, not what they say [fixed that for ya]. I still am having a lot of trouble with the fact that women will sex up 5, 10, 20, 40 men because they are trying to extract commitment; and it’s not about alphas or party lifestyle or power or attention.
Thanks, Privateman!
The other chestnut is “be grateful some woman even wants to be with you” and “you will die alone”.
Women want the average man to be with them, when such a woman spent her youth and beauty on other guys she can now no longer attract.
In other words, she wants the average man to “pay full price for used”.
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Not to sound self-centered, but I rank as a 7 (decent-looking, decent height, decent conversationalist). Not among the top ranking men, but close, and as I get older closer to the top 20% among my cohort. I´ve only been mildly successful with women when I was using game, whether consciously or without realizing I was following the 7 or 19 commandments of poon. Acting aloof because I´ve got some side action ready and being aggressive (escalating) is what´s worked for me in my modest sex life.
Almost every time I´ve tried to settle for less than a 7, I´ve either been rejected or friend zoned. It´s as if women knew they´re losing their time with you. Is that because they were aiming for the top looking guys or some chump beta so settle down with? It´s hard to say. I´ve dated 6´s, and even 5´s during bad streaks, and let me tell you the ladies weren´t that excited most of the time. Not as excited as I was when I was going out with 8+´s. And I´ve been rejected by girls I´d be embarrassed to introduce to my drunkard friends!
To sum up: women always believe the can do better, no matter how ugly or fat.
You are perfect but your breasts are too small!
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Friends? Maybe if you were nicer, I’d screw you and hump you mousy best friend wingwoman for good measure… adios, ‘ho. Friends, my ass. Friends this.
I can half-understand her if she’s several inches taller than he is. (i.e. she’s 5′ 11″)
But if they’re the same height or she’s shorter… complete cunt.
Recently chatted with a 5’2 girl who said she needs guys in the range of 5’11 to 6’2. I straight up laughed at her. She even said she hooked up with a 5’7 guy and sex was ‘weird’ because he was too short. I don’t even know where to begin with that one. It makes sense that women would want a taller man, but needing guys to be several inches taller than you, etc. is lunacy and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
He should respond with a concise challenge to the idea that height matters, and use some of what’s been shared in the comments here. I think it reflects more poorly on his pride if he ignores what she said. Call her out and get a dialogue going.
Notice that every male deficit is considered a plus point for females.
i.e. poor man = gamine waif
i.e. stupid man = naive girl
i.e. short man = petite woman
i.e. ugly man = homely woman
Women stupidly think their rejection of men shatter guys … little do they realise that some men are running “crash and burn” outings to rack up the most number of rejections so that their approaches for the future become much smoother.
In effect, women train men to become pickup artists.
Oops!
She is an asshole. Some girls are like that, and they are worth avoiding at all costs. Don’t look at them. Don’t talk to them. Don’t acknowledge them. Girls, especially American girls, have this overinflated sense of ego and importance. Most do not read, don’t know how to cook, and talk about stupid gossip and Facebook updates, and are constantly texting. Avoid these girls at all costs. They are information addicts. Date foreign women, especially from Europe and Canada.
LOL that woman was definitely a bitch but I probably would still have tried to fuck the shit out of her just for all my short brethrens out there.
I met this one girl online and after a few days of txting back and fourth she calls me one night. Eventually she asks me my height (though it was listed in my profile) and once I tell her she goes “Ohh….” I calmly respond “Hahha let me guess, your taller huh” She responds she’s 5’9. I laugh and say “That’s it? I’ve dated pleanty of girls taller.” After some more talking I convince her to drive 40 miles to my place. Funny, I was living with my parents at the time so I hop in her car, tell her to park on a dark street and she proceeds to give me one of the freakiest bjs I’ve ever had the pleasure of receiving. After I bust a nut, she wanted to fuck and I deny her saying “ahhh sorry I have to wake up early..” Oh and did I mention I instructed her to let me cum in her mouth, spit it back out into her hand and lick it back up finger by finger. Ohh….Obedient tall bitch. Classssic.
I like what you said about rejection eventually leading men to choose the red pill, in that we are guided toward seeking inward, universal wisdom rather than chasing tail. I think that is a nice little system. We can either become little bitches and fall at the feet of some great looking gal, or we can man-up and become independent of such pussy-whippedness and enlighten ourselves and be whole without the need of another. And there’s probably other avenues other than the two I just mentioned above. But that’s the way I see it.
That was tacky and charmless on the girl’s part. She deserves to be single.
dude I totally agree, I got in the game after a soul destroying break up with the girl I thought I would marry. She cheated on me with her supervisor, which led me down the road of learning “game”
Old post but I crack up with laughter at the term quality women.
Hi there mates, its wonderful post regarding cultureand completely explained, keep it up all the time.
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I think that being a pick up artist is something that men are proud of these days, but women would look down on someone that claims to be one.
This blog made me think of my early 20’s, as I was rejected by the foxes who chased after the Alfa males and showed no more interest in me than glancing at a blade of grass next to the highway traveling at 75 MPH. And this made me think about my own personal experiences with tall women, a slightly different story from this blog, but same result due to being a Beta male. One 6’ tall girl, in a gym, talked to me with such a look of disinterested she couldn’t have looked or acted more uninterested if she had wanted to. I approached another, who I estimated being 5 foot 9 or 10 inches. She got angry with me for even asking her out and stuck her finger in my face informing me she didn’t date shorter men. On line, I met a girl 5’11”, and we worked out together once in my apartment complex gym, after that she did not return my two phone calls, there could be others, too, I just don’t remember them all. Now, you may say the rejections were because of my looks, that could be true, but as I approached girls closer to my height, my success rate went way up.
This blog also made me think about the rejections by tall girls, and it angered me, but not at the time the rejection. Only years later, when I actually tallied them up, did I get angry. I was rejected not because I was fat, bald, ugly, deformed or had a rotten personality. No. The reason I was rejected by all of these women was my height. Not a one even bothered to put forth the effort to get to know me much less date me.
I did date three women who were significantly taller than me, two at 5’11” and one at 5’10”. (I am 5’8”) And all three happened to be 32 years of age, which is more than a coincidence and a tie in with this blog. No doubt all three wanted a tall Alfa male, and lost, so a safe stable Beta male was the next best thing in their 30’s, for I certainly didn’t grow any taller and I doubt I got better looking. These women were past their prime and worried. I was in my late 30’s, at this time of my life, after being married for 10 years. It was also at this time, I could easily date younger women, and I did. When I was 38, my first girlfriend was 27, the next was 27 and the next was 24 who became my second wife. I never dated with any intent of marrying a woman my age. Younger women had no issue with me dating them, and I certainly had no issue dating them. I remember going to singles events and seeing very pretty women, who were my age, who I know 15 years earlier would not have given me the time of day. And even now, they may have looked better than myself, but now it was me who had no interest in approaching them. I did not want to take time and money away from pursuing younger women. Why go old, when I could go young? I was amazed how the dating game changed in my favor. And I used it to my advantage, just as women had done years earlier.
I am now married and have 4 sons. I have 3 degrees, and I have co-authored 2 US patents. I could have provided a good life to any girl. I wanted a taller girl because of the physical turn on and to for fill one of my desires, yet not one single tall girl (in her 20’s) gave me a chance. I was turned down consistently and without a second thought. (Maybe due to the Alfa male fascination) So, if you find yourself in your late 20’s or early 30’s with no prospect of a husband or children in the immediate future, you have no one to blame but yourself. There were men like me, who wanted a leggy female, but they, like me, were never accorded the opportunity. (This also applies to average height women, too) And the reality is that the vast majority of tall women will not even consider a shorter man (and Beta males) until it is too late. You would think it would be obvious that if you included shorter males (and Beta males) in your suitor selection, your odds would increase of finding a mate. There are a lot more short and medium height males than there are taller ones. So my advice would be to accept the advances of all men and get to know them. I, who would have relished the opportunity of having curvy broad hips and a tapered waist to hold all night and to make love to into the early hours of the morning, was never, not once, even given a chance to start a relationship. Throw away the yardstick, for you may find someone like me, who would love to share his life and love with a tall girl.
By the way, another tie in with this article and be found at this web site.
http://shortguycentral.com/P-57/beware-of-the-reformed-heightist-woman
This writer tell about his rejections in his 20’s by women only to find that women now chased after him, in spite of his height, now he is in his early 30’s. He warns of the dangers of the “Reformed Heightest Woman” who are desperate after wasting their life chasing the Alfa male and now want a stable Beta with a steady pay-check.
Here is anther on how women who found the Mr. Average (Beta Males) were worth nothing in their 20’s and now that these women are in their 30’s can’t buy a date, even from the Beta Males
Why women lose in the dating game
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/why-women-lose-the-dating-game-20120421-1xdn0.html
During their 20s, women compete for the most highly desirable men, the Mr Bigs. Many will readily share a bed with the sporty, attractive, confident men, while ordinary men miss out. As Whiskey puts it at whiskeysplace.wordpress.com: ”Joe Average Beta Male is about as desirable to women as a cold bowl of oatmeal.”
”I can’t believe how many men my age are only interested in younger women,” wails Gail, a 34-year-old advertising executive as she describes her first search through men’s profiles on the RSVP internet dating site. She is shocked to find many mid-30s men have set up their profiles to refuse mail from women their own age.
Talking to many women like her, it’s intriguing how many look back on past relationships where they let good men get away because they weren’t ready. American journalist Kate Bolick wrote recently in The Atlantic about breaking off her three-year relationship with a man she described as ”intelligent, good-looking, loyal and kind”. She acknowledged ”there was no good reason to end things”, yet, at the time, she was convinced something was missing in the relationship. That was 11 years ago. She’s is now 39 and facing grim choices.