The Private Man

Attraction and dating information for all men

First Date From Online Dating – Protocol For Men

[Note: My target demographic is for a cohort over a certain age. You youngsters can sit this one out. Damned punks… get off my lawn!]

So, you got yourself a date with a woman from online dating. Of course you didn’t ask for a date, you stated it (link below). “Keep Friday evening open, I’ll take care of the rest.” That’s a confident line, right there. Do you know how many men actually show such confidence? Not nearly enough. Welcome to Club Charisma. You’ve now just entered the group of the top 20% of men.

You obviously picked something simple like ice cream or maybe a trip to the bookstore. Coffee is out because it’s been done to death and doesn’t speak well to your creativity. Dinner is also out because it’s too much cash for a first date with someone you don’t really know. A movie? Please, you’re smarter than that. Never, ever do a dinner and movie first date. You’re welcome.

So you perhaps picked a happy hour at a relatively upscale place. Happy hours are good because it’s relatively inexpensive and if the date goes really well you can segue to dinner, preferably at another pace because of reasons discussed below. But please, don’t drink too much. Also, it’s a public space so your date should feel comfortable. If she is not comfortable with a place that serves booze, think about the book store. Of course you like the bookstore, you literate SOB.

A weeknight is good for first dates because a Saturday date is too laden with formality and expectations. A first date is merely a chance to see if there is enough mutual attraction for a potential second date. Don’t overdo first dates, ever. If you do, your membership card to Club Charisma is instantly revoked.

No matter what her age, there’s at least a 50% chance she will flake. A good flake will involve a counter offer via voice or text. “Something’s come up and I’d like to reschedule for another time.” That’s a good flake because she still wants to see you. A bad flake has no counter offer. Don’t ask for one. Tell her you’ll call her another time (you won’t) or ignore the text. Then block her online dating profile. She’s done. The worst flake is when she simply doesn’t show up with no notice at all. Even grown-up women do this. Get used to it.

If it’s a weekday date after work, you should dress reasonably well. If you have a casual work environment, think seriously about changing beforehand. Showing up with sloppy dress is not cool. You’re better than that. Standing out with good clothes is a serious hallmark of a confident man.

As you’re meeting in a public place, arriving early is not a problem because it gives you time to observe other people in a social environment, that’s a learning opportunity. Arriving just a few minutes late is also an option because it signals to her that you have a full and busy life.

Before the date, arrange with a friend to call you during the date or send you a text. If she’s smart, she’s likely done the same thing. This is the “bail out!” option. If your date is obviously not going well – for whatever reason – that phone call will save you without an awkward way out. “Oh crap, I have an emergency I have to deal with, I am so sorry.” It’s a nice excuse and protects feelings. Just be aware that it can be used on you, too.

Things get sticky now. As you’re a smart online dater (link below), your profile contained honest and realistic photos. Your date, however, may have very well posted much older photos or even photoshopped photos. If she looks nothing like those photos or is too unattractive to you for some reason, you might be in a tight spot. Thankfully, you’ve arranged for the bail-out call in advance. Use that opportunity. Egregious online dating profile lies should not be encouraged. As you’ve got other options, you can move on to the next one.

The date should be light-hearted and fun. Make jokes, laugh, tease, flirt. In your conversation, avoid the heavy topics like religion, politics, and past relationships. Here’s a great rule of thumb – if you feel compelled to talk about your exes, you are not ready for dating. The same applies to her. If she starts bad-mouthing her exes, that’s a huge red-flag. Talk of the exes is a dating killer.

If you find yourself truly attracted to this woman, it’s time to ramp up your Charisma. You’ve been reading my blog, right? Now the pick up artistry (PUA) stuff applies. Use it for good, not evil. When you bounce venues and you have any time on foot, tell her to take your arm. Insist on it. It’s a bold and confident move.

If you’ve bounced to a new venue, a second date is almost guaranteed. You needn’t push for seduction. In fact, at our age, it’s rather unseemly and pushy. You’ve got the second date. To secure it, take her firmly in your arms and go for the kiss. That’s why she’s holding your arm. She’s comfortable with you. Going for the kiss is a bold and confident maneuver. Women adore that, no matter what they say. Easy on the tongue, tiger. Once the kiss is done, hit that second venue and don’t speak of the kiss again until the end of the date. You’re giving the impression that such kissing is perfectly normal to you… pre-selection, what a concept.

I’m going to bow out of the seduction potential at the end of the date. That’s not my style (as my first dates will attest) because I’m over a certain age. You do what you want. PUA will be your guide. Now is the time for post-date follow up. Text her the next day, in the afternoon. “That was a fine first date!” is the text – not a phone call. If you get a positive text in return, go for the second date and be bold about it. “Our second date will be [insert activity that you want]. That one can be dinner or something more involved…and not a movie! Dates are about the time spent together, not the activity you might be doing.

You can also expect the “you’re not the one” text. It’s always a text, I know this. Take this in stride because it happens often enough. Despite the kiss ( or even the seduction), despite your perceived attraction from her, it’s her decision to bail on the second date. It’s also your decision to do the same and pursue your other options. And you should. When a woman states that you’re not the one, you’re done. You’re toast, It’s over before it began. If you don’t like it, you’re not ready for Dating 2.0. But remember that while women are the gatekeepers to sexuality, men are the gatekeepers to commitment.

Lest my readers think that I am too pro-masculine, a future blog post will be about protocol for women regarding their first date from online dating. Warning: I will be dishing up some inside information.

Good Frame: Statements, Not Questions

Online Dating, A Short Primer

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99 thoughts on “First Date From Online Dating – Protocol For Men

  1. The “Keep Friday evening open, I’ll take care of the rest.” line would probably make me turn tail. From a guy I don’t know… online… it would frankly get my gears turning, and not in a good way. Really, that would be true if it were any guy I didn’t sort of know already. It could work if I already knew the guy from my own life, though. Then, it might have the cheeky Han Solo effect that is intended… Anyway, most of the rest of it is gold, though, really. Simple, but gold.

    • (i.e. I think women would respond favorably to the approach detailed here – and one of the good things about it is that it *is* fairly detailed)

    • Bear in mind that there has been some online correspondence and at least one phone call so the ““Keep Friday evening open, I’ll take care of the rest.” line can work. It’s better for a man to err on the side of confidence and boldness.

      • A lot of bold stuff does look silly in a printed and context-less vacuum, compared to its appearance in context and with all the surrounding additional information like intonation, body-language and the flow of the conversation at the moment.

        I don’t get quite that bold before in-person meetings, because for me, physical presence and maybe a bit of a smirk really back up my bravado.

      • Hamster Tamer on said:

        It’s better for a man to err on the side of confidence and boldness.

        Too Right! Doncha love it when wimminz stop by a men’s blog to reinforce the ol’ “Good Girl = Shy Girl” blue pill programming? Lulz. In reality, shyness is almost always a result of underlying “Cluster C” type neuroses…

        Absolutely nothing wrong with filtering out the shy ones, reeeeal early. Plus TPM lives in Bikini-ville, i.e. clothing is optional, shyness is not. Am I supposed to believe a 42-yr-old woman w/ breast augmentation and “hundred-dollar hair” (and an online dating profile) is “shy”?… Okee-DOkee.

      • Nupnupnup on said:

        No. Shyness can be related to Cluster C (especially AvPD) but more often than not it is a milder form that does not qualify for any of the Cluster C disorders.

        The upside: even if it is Cluster C related, Cluster C people generally much less prone to manufactured drama than B – they might take “rejection” in a bad way but usually do not go apeshit on you. As for Cluster A those are, uhhm, special, but frankly also quite rare…

        In fact, I may have to post a clarifying comment on that post (mainly: stay the hell away from Cluster B).

  2. Nupnupnup on said:

    How would you deal with not having any time for dates during the week (many good jobs come with crazy hours)?

    • Nupnupnup on said:

      And while I am it asking dumb questions: I am in an age where I could reasonably date students (in fact, I probably should) but make more than enough to be able to afford fancy dates (or at least regular dates in fancy places which I actually rather like) where a student would not be able to split the bill without a thought. Down scale the dates? Just grin and pay?

      • For the first dates (1-3), just grin and pay. The problem with taking young women to fancy places is that their perception of you shifts to that of provider. I don’t know your relationship goals but given that you could date students, I suspect that you’re in your early to mid 30s. This age is the time when men are more likely to seek a committed relationship so you might be more willing to be seen as a provider. My bottom line advice – keep the first dates simple and relatively inexpensive but still pay. If you sense a quality woman (yes, that includes sex), then you can play up the provider role a bit more but don’t be consistent about it. Something fancy that’s on your nickle should be a relatively rare treat for you both.

      • Nupnupnup on said:

        Just about hitting the 30s threshold now. As for relationship goals, I’d be happy with the right woman but given the choice between a soso fit and staying alone, I will stay alone (low sex drive does have some advantages 🙂 ).

        I would actually rather not date students (students have their very own perception of the world – I must know, I was one for the longest time 🙂 but the women my age all start to feel the biological clock ticking which is something I most assuredly do not want to deal with. I do not (in principle) have a problem with playing provider (a little, anyway, they should pay for their own life in general) but I sure as hell will not p(l)ay the father role…

        Of course, all of that requires to get over my own screwed up head first.

      • A lot of my dates offer to split, but when they don’t, I grin and pay. For people I liked, I’d sometimes throw in a “you’re getting the first round next time”-type statement, but even with a big smirk and some IOIs during the date showing that she’ll want a second, it’s still a little too much on the “obligation” or “negotiation” side and is something I dropped after seeing it cause tingles to fade.

        The interesting lesson from my foray into online dating has been the need to keep the eyes on the prize when planning a date. Picking a date spot because you want to check out something new or want an excuse to go somewhere fancy, instead of picking somewhere I know and can rely on has caused me all sorts of frustration.
        Using first dates as an excuse to see somewhere new has sometimes thrown me off my game a bit due to a variety of issues. It has also sometimes created bad logistics, and using a first date as an excuse to go somewhere fancy can set the wrong tone. And for online first dates, which are true first in-person meetings, those are all far more pressing concerns than they would be for a first date procured in person.

        So I advise you to downscale the dates and do them at some regular spots that you know serve your interests well.

    • Regarding time, it’s also important to make sure you reserve enough personal time to be at your best in your dating time, and to devote personal time to being interesting enough to date.

      In my days in biglaw, my dating life was terrible not just because I was quite beta, but also because the dates I did get, I showed up tired, distracted, or burned out (further amplifying by boring betatude), and I was quite boring because I had lost touch with many of my hobbies and passions.

      • Nupnupnup on said:

        Tell me about it… And while I often do very interesting things at work, I am not allowed to talk about them, at all. For these reasons, I’ll go buy a new motorbike (probably a Yamaha FZ8 – I should probably buy a car I live in a city where a car is not needed and a car I actually care to drive is in the 6 digits and just can’t justify that) as soon as the damn winter is going south 🙂

        It also does not help that I usually do not meet any women during the work week.. However, ultimately, it’s my mind, not my job that prevents me from dating.

      • If you do develop lots of hobbies and passions to become interesting, though, you may find that a lot of women on online dating sites then start to seem boring and insipid to you. That’s kind of what I find. I’ll read through a hundred profiles and every one sounds like it was written by the same not very interesting female. After being on a dating site a couple of years and meeting about a dozen of them, I’ve gone out with enough of these women to know they aren’t any more interesting in person. As an older guy dating older women online, I’ve found that their looks have declined a lot but a lot of them haven’t developed any other compensating qualities. They are like the hot twenty year old girl with a vapid personality except now they’re fifty and no longer hot but
        still with the same personality.

      • Nupnupnup on said:

        So essentially I am screwed – because I am already bored mindless by most 20 year olds. Hot or not 🙂

      • Nup, the trick is not to actually talk to them too much…

      • Nupnupnup on said:

        Letting them talk is even less conducive to not having me bored. And unless you can show me a jedi mind trick that they will sleep with me after 5 minutes of meeting them, there is going to talking

      • Hamster Tamer on said:

        Prime bit of Red Pill introspection there.

        So I advise you to downscale the dates and do them at some regular spots that you know serve your interests well.

        Indeed, new for her, but super familiar/comfortable for you is a winning combo, winning D-s/maintain-frame/novel-for-her equation, plus chances for social proof from COUPLES you might “run into” (as opposed to lone wolf beta/blocker buds).

  3. Pingback: First Date From Online Dating – Protocol For Men « PUA Central

  4. greenlander on said:

    I don’t get the whole thing with the “bail out” text option.

    If the chick or the date is obviously a train wreck, just make some polite excuse and GTFO. If you’re over 25 (which I am by a large margin), then you should just have the confidence to just ditch her and get on with what’s next in your life.

    Politeness toward the lying ugly skanks in the anglosphere is way overrated.

    If she’s a dumb feminist cunt, just cut bait and get out.
    If she posted ten-year-old pictures on, just cut bait and get out.
    If she is fat, just cut bait and get out.
    If she’s annoying, just cut bait and get out.
    If she’s a dorky chick with no social skills, just cut bait and get out.
    If she’s less than a six, just cut bait and get out.

    Life is short. Why make it complicated?

    • I do understand this strategy. But the unintended consequence is that the woman could get rather obstreperous with your dating phone requiring you to get a new one and also notifying all your dating contacts of the change. That’s a nuisance. The bail out call allows her to make excuses to herself and for you to make a dignified retreat.

  5. Dreaming Of April on said:

    I actually winced a few times while reading this post. As a woman, I wish more of my sex would understand how they have created the dating/relationship culture they are lamenting. I also wish more men would figure out how to game their wives/girlfriends before it’s too late. I am ending my fourteen year marriage for this very reason. I want a husband not a friend. He’s made it very clear he’s not willing to work on the dynamics of the situation or shift the power structure. I’m looking forward to dating again because I sincerely adore men. Focusing on being the best woman to attract the best man has always been a successful strategy for me. If more women were concerned with what they had to offer versus what they felt entitled to things would shift significantly. Of course, that would also mean, in order to win these women men would have to ruthlessly inventory and table many of their beta traits.

    • @April – it’s not too late you know. Or at least it doesn’t have to be too late. *IF* you want to save your marriage, you can still options – such as steering your husband to Athol Kay, flat out saying the above to him, etc. He may not want to take the Red Pill – I get that. But then again, maybe he *does* and simply doesn’t know it exists.

      My ex was pissed when I swallowed the Red Pill – during our divorce – b/c I finally took my balls back – and it annoyed her that I did this after she left. Sadly, her departure was the impetus – it took that sort of shock for me to wake the fuck up and realize it didn’t have to be that way.

      Your choice. With some patience and a little creativity, you can help him step out on the road toward being a man – where he’ll have a long journey ahead of him. Wouldn’t you enjoy being part of that journey?

      • Happy new year 2013 on said:

        Ultimately whilst its interesting b to read your views and comments,it’s comes down to one key thing loving yourself and leaving the past behind too many people carry hurt pain and not so cool experiences with then for years,don’t let go of there past before embarking on a new relationship ,players are just insecure and refuse to let anyone near them,majority if woman are needy and have no self worth which scares the pants out of men flip it round same needy men coming onto woman,then with make/females that are sorted independent,not needy ,look amazing,have depth ,humour,far from being dull or coming close to making you fall asleep or run through the fire escape on the first date and actially the full package everyone thinks too good to be true !! When its not….So where’s the happy medium ????

    • Nupnupnup on said:

      I agree with your points. I however maintain that it is easier for women (at least up to a certain age) to make themselves more attractive because a much bigger part of being attractive is physical appearance that seems to be much easier to improve than losing the beta traits (which is really changing the core of many a man’s personality)…

      That a guy would refuse to change the power structure when asked to do so is rather mind boggling, however.

      • @Nup

        “That a guy would refuse to change the power structure when asked to do so is rather mind boggling, however.”

        Totally agree with this – but I’m willing to wager a fair amount of money, that he hasn’t “heard” her say this. She may think she has – but I’d be quite surprised if she had said this in so many words.

        Perhaps the OP can share with us exactly what she said to her husband…..

      • Between this and your earlier posts, I think you’re overestimating how tough it would be for you to start implementing some game or Charisma.

        It doesn’t need to start with changing the core of a man’s personality, there are a lot of incremental steps along the way, and the earliest steps are often the ones that yield the biggest results. The biggest changes I saw were when I took the step up from “active anti-game” to merely “no game.”

        You’re also already in a better place than you think, because of your attitude that zero is better than a negative (the ability to walk away is the key element of market power, especially for men in the SMP), and when you mention going to fancy places for dates, you do it because you enjoy those places, not to prove yourself.

        Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Don’t worry about transforming yourself into an apex alpha, just do a lot of things that each help you be a bit more attractive.

      • Nupnupnup on said:

        You are right and you are wrong. I am a naturally rather aloof person (not all that interested in most people) and many game lessons make sense to me on a rational level (which does not mean that I can actually implement them but one might try), but there are two complications
        a) I must have one of the most ridiculous cases of approach anxiety (or maybe Avoidant Personality Disorder) – I am not all that bad in the later stages but I never get there because I do not approach (not even online)
        b) Actually being interested in someone (beyond mere looks) screws with my mind because it happens so rarely and then I get all OCD about it. I know, supposedly oneitis can be cured by spinning plates but that is sort of precluded by a)

        I also believe that I am somewhere on the high functioning side of the autistic spectrum which is both a boon and a bane: it can give me intense focus on one task but makes it absolutely impossible to focus on multiple things at the same time – I can’t even listen and read body language at the same time. But arguably that could be surpassed if the two above issues could get fixed. Multiple shrinks and a number of close friends have over the past 10 years amounted to approximately zero progress on that front [to this day I am not quite sure if stumbling into a 7 year LTR at 20 was a good or a bad thing – at the very least it proved that I am not easily manipulated once things are somewhat stable].

        And finally, I HATE HATE HATE leading anything. Push comes to shove I will do it (sometimes happens in professional live), but if I can offload leadership to someone else, rest assured that will happen.

      • Nupnupnup,

        Anyone can deal with crippling approach anxiety given enough opportunity to work on it. Motivation to approach strange women is more of a long-term problem that i share. Like you said, it can be hard to be attracted to women on the basis of physical looks alone if you run to more of the cerebral end of the spectrum. I tend to look for activities that I enjoy that are well-populated by women. That gives me an opportunity to get to know women at least a little bit, and that can make all the difference in the world in-between desire and indifference.

        It’s quite rare for me to approach a woman on the street, just because it’s impossible to summon up the motivation.

      • Nupnupnup on said:

        In my case it’s not so much classic approach anxiety (if someone drops me in the situation, I do not have much physical reaction to it, IOW I do not get racing pulse, sweat or tremble/shake) as it is avoidant personality disorder (which also manifests itself in other situations).

        As for attraction based on physical attributes – that happens, but then we are talking HB8/9 which technically would not be out of my league if I could handle the process of approaching them (if they turn out to be dumb or annoying, the attraction might yet disappear)… As for activities that would make one meet women, I agree, but so far I have not come across one that I would actually enjoy. In general, most of the things I enjoy are rather solitary activities, I also never liked team sports as sport for me is for health/looks/sanity and therefore I want the most impact in the shortest time (my plan for 2013 is to drop my body fat to the high single digits while bumping my BMI to 23ish), which is hardly chasing around balls on a playing field, or yoga, to go to the more contrived female example…

    • April:

      If you’ll indulge me: I get why you’re ending your marriage, but in my opinion his “friendliness” isn’t a good enough reason to pull the plug. If he’s not beating, cheating or retreating, you don’t have cause to divorce him. You’re divorcing him because you’re unhaaaaappy.

      I do have to say, though, that if a man is not attractive because he won’t do anything to work on this, that’s a real problem for the marriage.

    • April:

      Your comment has me intrigued. I have a few questions.

      1. Has your husband always been beta?
      2. Why did you marry him? What about him was sufficiently attractive to cause you to marry him?
      3. Do you have kids?
      4. What–exactly — did you say to him to encourage Game and more alpha/less beta?
      5. I suspect there has been a fundamental change in one or both of you. Who changed? How?

      • Dreaming of April on said:

        1. His alpha characteristics were much more visible when we first married. They have eroded over time.
        2. I was attracted to sense of humor, intelligence, ability to get things done. I suppose in a word his potential. Also, I found him to be physically attractive. He was in good shape and was an excellent dresser. Now his waistline and inseam are the same. He dresses like a slob.
        3. We have an amazing daughter who will be 12 this summer.
        4. He knows all about the manoshere. I’ve shown him the emails and responses I’ve received from Athol. He knows the different sites to seek out for advice. He’s great at articulating why women need to be gamed and pointing out men who act like betas and sabotaging their relationships. Interestingly, he then points out how he’s just like these guys.
        5.Yes, we have both changed. As he became more beta I became more dominant. I feel very badly about this, but I become really unnerved around that energy and compensate poorly. It was as if I was two different people. He is a workaholic. Actually, he always has been. I simply didn’t notice. In the beginning he balanced this with other interests because he wanted to meet women. After we got married it was as if he could drop the charade and just throw himself into work, while turning into a schlub at home. He is such a different man in many respects that I often feel I should sue him for fraud! 🙂 We lived in a very high end apartment building in Northern, NJ. A very successful very alpha male started paying a lot of attention to me. I never kept any of this info from my husband. Both of our daughters are the same age and played together so our paths crossed often. What I immediately noticed was that when I spent time around him I was always able to be myself because of his masculine energy. It was such a relief and a treat to be around a man. Nothing happened between us back East. We both moved across the country to the same city. It had been well over a year since we’d seen or talked to each other. I initiated contact. He then asked me to have drinks. I agreed. This time I let him kiss me goodnight and well he lit me up like a Christmas tree. At this point, I’m not seeing him. I have to unwind my marriage first.

      • Guys, this one is done. I understand the desire to save the marriage (Red Pill White Knighting?) but one can lead a horse to water, you can’t force him to take the Red Pill. If Athol didn’t have an affect, it’s time to move on and let this one play out. The guy has given up… according to her side of things.

        I just hope that DoA works out a fair and reasonable settlement where the daughter has close and supportive access to dad and mom alike. Also, that the husband isn’t ripped a new one in family court.

        There’s a take-away lesson about being alpha (and I actually don’t like that term in this context)… you have to maintain it. This is the work in marriage for men.

      • This “alpha” may just be thinking he’s got it made, sister – don’t be dumb. I really do NOT like that he’s paying this much attention to a married woman. I mean it. Once your divorce is completely finalized, if he still wants to see you, by all means start seeing him, and take it *slow* (i.e. if he really wants to get to know you, he’ll stick around, and if he doesn’t, hopefully he’ll get tired of waiting for pussy that isn’t readily available).

      • I love how she’s only considering leaving after she can monkeybranch to the new one. Women can’t be be by themselves, it leads to too much introspection, the solipsistic hamster won’t allow it. If there’s no upgrade, then they are fucked and have to actually pretend to enjoy being with the one they live with. Just as my ex wife (and yours too) monkeybranched to me, so they will monkeybranch to the one after you. Guaranteed.

      • DoA:

        Thanks for your honest responses. I must say I don’t have a lot of respect for you because you’ve admitted to going on a date with a man while still married to your husband, you’ve essentially cheated on him, and you’re only going to divorce your husband now that you have an “alpha” interested in you. You’ll only let go of one branch once another is firmly in your grasp.

        If the tables were turned and your in-shape husband was going on line talking about your fat body and how you refused him sex and he was going on drink dates with cougars, the femosphere would be Up. In. Arms.

        At one level I suppose this is the work we men have to do in this SMP. We have to maintain the alpha, we have to keep in shape; we have to be the fun, exciting, sexy boyfriend. We have to continually court a woman and keep her interested.

      • I have to say: this is where the feminine narrative will come in. DoA is “justified” in divorcing her husband because he’s just not alpha enough. She is essentially here telling us that she’s not really responsible for her actions; her husband’s betaness has “driven” her to the arms of another man. So it’s not her fault that her marriage is on the fritz; it’s his fault — ALL his fault. She has not taken one iota of responsibility — not ONE. The end of a marriage is almost never all one party’s fault.

      • Dreaming of April on said:

        deti, just so you understand, I don’t feel justified in divorcing my husband because he’s not alpha enough. I am divorcing him because he completely failed to keep his shit together at home. I have made plenty of mistakes and I take responsibility for them. There is no perfection this side of Eden. A marriage has to be resilient enough to withstand mistakes by both parties, it has to be flexible enough to allow for growth and change, and it should be infused good humor throughout. None of this however is enough to compensate for when one partner’s sex rank completely surpasses the other’s. It’s important to note this is a choice. He chose to become a victim, to let himself go, to stop putting his best foot forward at home. I have a great body. As I’m no longer in my 20’s a great body requires effort. I workout 5 times a week and eat a ton of saturated fat. I’ve mentioned that I do this because I want to be desirable to him. It’s my way of saying thank you for all you do for our family. From that perspective, his 60 lb weight gain on his 5’8 frame, is akin to giving me the middle finger. Hypergamy wins as ugly as that might be. I can make myself fuck him the problem is I can’t make myself WANT to.
        I am completely responsible for my actions. I’m choosing to leave someone who is not interested in honoring himself. The other man isn’t firmly in my grasp. We will never be together. He was simply the catalyst for waking me from my slumber and for that I thank him. He has been in pursuit of me since ’09. My husband has never once issued a protest. Doesn’t that strike you as a bit odd? Shouldn’t that have at least motivated him to put some effort into himself? I encouraged him to write Athol and seek advice. Why didn’t he do this? You’re right, the end of a marriage isn’t ever entirely one party’s fault. That doesn’t mean fault doesn’t lie more squarely on the shoulders of one than the other. Assuming it’s a 50/50 kind of thing is naive. Believing marriage is not contingent is a huge mistake.
        Also, I’m not a feminist so bringing up what’d they’d say if the tables were turned is pointless. Okay, well enough of my boring sad story!

      • Glad to hear your replies April – I didn’t address the marriage because I “got it” the first time 😉 He totally gave up on actually being married, and got spectacularly lazy – and has failed to get it into gear after plenty of warnings and suggestions… Even the “superficial” issues are quite serious here. 60 lbs on a 5’8″ guy would turn my stomach. It would make it really hard to want to have sex with him, as you mention. But I can see you still genuinely like him and he’s not a jerk. That really makes this fairly tragic – because it’s not easy to find someone who is simply a good person. But marriage isn’t *only* about that or one of my gay friends and I would get hitched. Glad to see you’ve got your head on your shoulders and are just letting that other “exciting” guy be one little part of a final wakeup call, that was my only concern.

      • And because you guys are a family, with a daughter… at least she is a bit older and it sounds like you two won’t be horrible to on another.

      • Infantry on said:

        For insight into why women are not responsible for their actions and men are responsible for things even outside of their control, research the terms hypo-agency and hyper-agency.

        Girlwriteswhat, a MRA woman explains the terms definitively on youtube. It pretty much explains most of the double standards men and women both face in our society.

      • Hamster Tamer on said:

        Guys, this one is done. I understand the desire to save the marriage…

        Still, once April goes “EPL” on her “didn’t really meeeeean it” marriage vows, I think hubby should take her on a “LJBF” trip to… Mexico, deep in, past the tourist havens. Once there, hubby should obtain a riding crop (real one) and just WALE on April’s (allegedly) “great body” until she… sees GOD. Reading between the lines, it sounds like she’ll be eternally grateful, on several hamster levels. 😀

        Pretty much zero chance of hubs being prosecuted, or even arrested. Might even get a medal. 8)

        PS: “Love” the way April took extensive CARING measures to insure it’s not a stealth-health issue with The Man Who Walked Her Down The Aisle, e.g. thyroid/endocrine/low-T/depression. No, just “warnings” and “hints”… Any “Get Out Of Marriage Free” card is good enough for her… “Look Sally, he missed a belt loop! I… am… so… OUTTA HERE!!!!” 🙄

    • DC Phil on said:

      No man is really going to table his beta traits until someone shows him the other way — viz., Red Pill — and he practices it until it becomes second nature. Then again, that would presume that the guy understands the Red Pill and sees the merit in it.

  6. Great post, TPM – and this is pretty much what I do.

    Couple of thoughts – First – pick a place you already know and are comfortable at. This is really important. If you’ve already got a comfort “vibe” going, you’ll put your date at ease. Plus, if you’ve picked a good spot, she’ll comment on it and give you an opp to agree and amplify – “Do you bring all your dates here?” “Of course – and my mom too” or “Only if they aren’t crazy cat ladies” or “Just the modest ones”(gotta love insidious negs)

    Second – totally agree on the ability to segue into an immediate “second date” – either a light dinner or ice cream or a walk in the park or whatever as a “natural extension” of the initial meeting. Know the area and know what’s around – you’ll get “bonus” points if you can show her something “cool” she might not know about.

    Second part B – a walk as you move between points A and B is a great thing. You can hold her hand, if so inclined, window shop, do the fireman’s carry and so many other great kino amplifiers.

    Third – I’m still down with coffee dates – as long as they’re not chains and have a fun feel to them. Plus, it’s easier to segue coffee dates than drink dates, at least IMO.

    Fourth – totally yes on flaking. If there’s no counter date/time offered, she’s not interested. Period. Eject and move on.

    Fifth – when asking for the initial date, I like to use “either/or” – I assume the sale and give her the option of either time A or time B – I’m showing I’m in charge – and that I’m also courteous – but I’m not framing the question where “no” is a possible answer – I’m framing it as “We are going out – either this time or that”.

  7. Dreaming of April on said:

    TJ, I appreciate your advice and have already made those attempts. He read Married Man Sex Life Primer months ago, declared it a fantastic book, and actually became even more beta. He is a fantastic provider and a wonderful friend, but it would be completely disingenuous and self serving for me to stick around for those reasons alone. Plus, I can’t go on like this. I have other options. I’d prefer to say, thank you not fuck you, so divorce seems to be the only way. It’s fantastic that you had the courage to swallow the red pill even though your wife’s leaving was the impetus for it.

    Nupnupnup, I wonder if loosing beta traits is as difficult for men as tuning into the feminine is for women? I also can’t help but wonder if on both sides we are talking about really awful ingrained habits that can be re-written as opposed to core personality traits. You’re right that given all the options and information out there today physical appearance has never been easier for women to enhance or manipulate. What they fail to take into account however is that it’s not enough to look the part you must act it too. They’ve completely abdicated the component of being feminine while for the most part they’ve never looked more alluring. What a sad contradiction. I’m glad I’m not the only perplexed over his refusal to change the power structure of our marriage. I’ve actually written Athol about this and recommended I have him move out.

    • @April – gotta say I’m sadded that he’s not budging for himself after MAP – glad no one took me up on my bet! I’m not surprised tho that he doubled down on beta – that was I did – and most stbe husbands do/did.

      So – Friday night – meet me at Mother Fool’s – what works best for you – 7 or 8?

    • Nupnupnup on said:

      As far as I am concerned, acting feminine is less of concern than not being a bitch and a nice person instead. I’d be perfectly fine with a cute but nerdy girl that is a good friend and can say what she thinks/feels (rather than having me guessing) plus some of the emotional/sexual components of a relationship. In fact, give me that over someone who thinks I need to take the lead in everything. Bonus points if she occasionally takes charge in seducing me 🙂

      Disclaimer: I would recommend not to take dating advice from me, I am so far from normal on so many dimensions that it will more likely than not lead you astray 🙂

      • Hamster Tamer on said:

        Nup, you are an… outlier. Sounds like you need a 3-way with a submissive woman AND a dominatrix! The latter to “force” you to ravish the former, LMBO!… it’s going to be expensive, but what the hey, good medicine usually is.

        Bonus points if both wimminz have mainstream titles such as “Sex Therapist” or “Life Coach”. Anything to cure the paralysis. 😎

      • Nupnupnup on said:

        I am outlier alright. To the far right of most curves (working on body composition right now), to the far left when it comes to confidence.

        Bonus points if both wimminz have mainstream titles such as “Sex Therapist” or “Life Coach”
        That just means they are ugly ass prostitutes. In all seriousness, if I thought that what you describe would help, I would drop that money in a heart beat (prostitution is entirely legal where I live and I make more than enough money that just basically goes into my bank account and stays there). Problem is: I have very little interest in prostitutes – sex for me is about validation (better euphoria can be had from drugs much more easily) and I seriously doubt there is any of that if you pay.

        Case in point, I spent new year’s eve (second most contrived day of the year, right after valentine’s day) in a high end bar (because we knew there would be space there) drinking beer. Tons of professional 9s around – nice to look at but ultimately not all that interesting to me. That and me being to shy to even approach them (after complaints by other people a few years back they dialed down their offensiveness a lot plus while we were dressed decently, we explicitely did not wear 2000USD tailored suits [1] so possibly not their prime targets :-).

        [1] I do enough of that when working, no real interest in doing it when I get a few days off.

  8. Dreaming of April on said:

    I didn’t notice the reply button when I commented the second time so I’ll just jump in here. TJ I have told him very bluntly that I don’t want to be in a marriage where I’m in charge. He’s been given fair warning and told in no uncertain terms. He also knows that other high status men are pursuing me and shows little concern over it. Fighting with another VP over a coveted office was much more of a priority for him than mate guarding me. Work appears to have all of his attention.

    deti, I was very torn about ending my marriage for these reasons as well. I’ll admit on the surface it sounds very frivolous. However, you also acknowledge it’s a real problem that he won’t work on the marriage. From my perspective, my life doesn’t change drastically by divorcing him. At least this way I allow myself the opportunity to be in a relationship with a man who is willing to invest in himself and hence us. It’s the chance (and I know it’s a chance) I want. I didn’t get fat, chop my hair off, or ever deny him sex. He loves having a wife of my caliber. He makes that abundantly clear. Yet, he admits to being unable to give me what I deserve. I give really good wife should I settle for someone who is content to give mediocre husband?

    • @April – would just like to point out the inherent contradiction here – you’re telling him to be in charge.

      Just roll that around for a second and then laugh about it.

      Tip for the future – men respond best to positive reinforcement. Saying “I like it when you….” is way better than saying “Why don’t you…..?” or any of the million usual variations.

    • koevoet on said:

      DoA, please don’t become another statistic. Give the guy another chance. Also, give me his address so I can beat the ever loving shit out of him and explain to him how much sitting at home masturbating sucks. Both you and he will thank me for it.

    • DoA, I think you are right and put your husband out of his misery and divorce him. As soon as you do that the pain and heartbreak will make him get thin and fit and in no time he’ll be dating and having fun. You will not get anywhere with all those unfaithful alphas looking for thrill outside their marriage. You’ll ride a carousel for a few months until solitude hits you, that is if you don’t hit ‘the wall’ earlier. This is just a small summary and I’m not even getting into the pain and suffering that your daughter will go through. But you will do a favour to your husband in the long term, so for his sake go on and divorce him.

      • Dreaming of April on said:

        Your summary is completely pathetic. Of course that’s what he’ll do. High level thinking isn’t required to make that prediction. In fact, I met him a year after a failed relationship and he was completely pulled together. I sincerely hope he refrains from falling apart for the next Mrs. Truly, I wish him nothing but the best. In many respects he’s an excellent man. Certainly, I want him to be happy. Your predictions are retarded. I can only guess that they are based on your own lack of competence. I didn’t ride the carousel when I was in my 20’s. Why would I do it now? The reason I’ve always had lots of quality men to choose from is I focus on being the kind of woman they’d like to be around. Being concerned with what I can offer rather than on what I can extract has served me well. Also, I won’t be hitting the wall. Only bitter bitches who don’t know how to take care of themselves run into that problem. If you had any capacity for offering useful criticism or advice you’d be smart enough to figure out that two people living together as roommates when they’re married are lonely people indeed. Managing solitude is something I’ve been doing for quite awhile. As for our daughter, it may be difficult initially, but she has luxury of having genuinely nice parents who will always put her needs first. Here’s an idea. Instead of being myopic you could cultivate the capacity for being decent.

      • just visiting on said:

        Baloney. You’re more concerned with your wants than your daughter’s very real emotional needs. Your husband’s only crime is that he’s not attractive. I don’t remember that part in the vows. Until unsexy do we part. But at the very least, you could hold it together until she hits 18. After all, you’re not one of those bitter bitches whose going to hit the wall, so waiting until your daughter is an adult shouldn’t be too problematic. Your marriage isn’t just about you or even your husband for that matter. When it comes to kids, a child’s needs out weigh an adults wants. Since your husband isn’t one of the three A’s,( Addict,Abusive, or committing Adultry) your claim of putting your daughter’s needs first are hamsterbation.

      • just visiting on said:

        And yes, if you were to ask your daughter if she would prefer an intact supportive family where she gets to see her father everyday, I’m pretty sure that she would choose that over divorce. Your ability to get light up like a Christmas tree probably isn’t a high priority on HER list of emotional needs.

      • Hamster Tamer on said:

        I’m not even getting into the pain and suffering that your daughter will go through.

        Heh heh heh… yep, in 5 or 6 years she’ll be vulnerable, and primed for my… Daddy Issues (Dark) Game. 😈 Gotta love frivorcing femi-koms, trusted suppliers to the Adult Entertainment Industry, and force feeders of the Steroid Hamster. 😯

  9. Solid gold advice, TPM.

    I usually have a couple of first-date venues to choose from in various parts of the city and have friends who can usually recommend a place if I don’t know a particular area well. Fortunately, Manhattan is the optimum place to be able to bounce from a casual drink to a light dinner if things are going well. And while walking to the new venue, having her take your arm is my go-to move (not holding hands, it’s usually too soon and too intimate). I don’t expect first-date sex, but usually will take a woman’s hint if she’s in the mood.

    Maybe I’ve just been lucky, but I’ve only ever had two actual flakes on a date and both suggested a follow-up. I’ve only ever had one no-show, who claimed she couldn’t find the place, but never actually called or texted me about it at the time, and I always provide my phone number on the day of the date for that purpose.

    As for the “bail-out” call, I’m with greenlander on this one. While I certainly understand the utility of the bail-out call, it’s just a little to contrived for my style. A truly charismatic man should be able to make conversation for 30 minutes even if the woman is clearly not as advertised, grossly overweight, boring, shy to the point of silence, or a raging feminist. And a charismatic man should be able to summon the grace to end a date on a good note without engendering a woman’s rancor. Yes, there are some crazy ladies out there who can’t take no for an answer, but that’s part of the dating scene that you learn to deal with. I’ve been fortunate to not run into very many of those situations.

    • A lot of guys new to dating and over 40 years old probably haven’t developed sufficient Charisma and confidence to prematurely end a bad date without causing hurt feelings or worse. The bail out call/text is simply a nice little mechanism to help a guy as he begins dating again.

      • Point taken.

        I just hope that it’s a crutch they can learn to ditch sooner rather than later. Being able to smoothly exit a bad date is a skill well worth learning…

      • This is indeed a very good point and worthy of a future blog post. Thanks!

      • Nupnupnup on said:

        But then why do you even need someone to call you? Grab your phone and fake being called, easy enough and much easier to time.

        Either way, badly executed this way of bailing out may create more damage than simply saying that you do not see this working.

      • Nup, I wouldn’t even mention “I don’t see this working” when making a smooth exit as it leaves a down-note. A glance at your watch at the right moment, a smile, and “it was great meeting you.” Pay the check and leave, always upbeat and smiling…

      • Infantry on said:

        Yeah, the way to wrap things up early is the watch check and “Oh, I have to be at my parents in 20 minutes. It was lovely meeting you.” Big smiles and hugs.

    • Infantry on said:

      A truly charismatic man should be able to make conversation for 30 minutes even if the woman is clearly not as advertised

      Hear hear.

      As an online dating veteran, I’ve done this more than once. The pool is toxic enough without me p@#$ing in it.

  10. I have a question that’s been bugging me for some time. Maybe you can enlighten me here, Private Man.

    We Men of the ‘sphere hate feminists and feminism. We are against “independent”, “empowered” and “masculine” women. We don’t want women in the workforce. I’m pretty sure most everyone agrees on those points. So, my question…

    Why are we expecting a woman to pay or split the bill? That’s not very feminine.

    We don’t want women working, yet we expect them to have money? I thought we were after feminine women. Not strong independent women.

    Are we trying to game feminists?

    I’ve never allowed a woman to pay for anything. Very few women I have ever dated had the resources to pay for dinner. And the restraunts I give my custom to are usually 50 dollara a plate minimum. I’m not lowering my standards so the woman can pay.

    I’m not disagreeing with you, but that’s been bugging me for a while. On one hand we hate women working, on the other we want them to buy us drinks and dinner. Looking forward to hearing your response, Private Man.

    • DC Phil on said:

      My $0.02, adjusted for inflation.

      As a reader of the Manosphere, and veteran of Dating 2.0, for a little over two years now, I can say that paying for dates is a bit of a necessary evil. Concerning women working, I have no problem with either, in general. In fact, women working means more of a tax base to pay my salary (gov’t employee) and social services. With today’s economy, all hands on deck is better than over 50% not working. Concerning feminists, I have no problem with it in general. Where it becomes an issue is with the man-hating broads and their ilk calling for the subjugation of men, in many ways than one. Women wanted the right to vote? Great, more power to them. Women wanted the right to vote so that they could gain authority along with the power they’ve always had (Pussy Power), then there’s a problem.

      The issue with women paying for dates, to me, comes down to the fact that, as a working girl, she has the means. If the woman I’m taking out is working in a low-paying job, or is on welfare or unemployed, then it’s my job to pick up the tab. It’s only fair (in my eyes, and I’m sure in hers). Now, if she makes more than I do at some professional job, then expects me to pick up the check, I consider this angling for privilege, wrapped up in a nice entitlement bow. This happened to me once with a lawyer (bad choice) who made three times as much as I did, then expected me to pick up the bill without even so much as a thank you or counter offer. Again, had she been a student, unemployed, or something along those lines, not so much of a problem. Rich bitch? Um . . .

      As I said, paying for dates is a necessarily evil. So, I’ve tried to choose dates that won’t cost me more than $20. In the summertime, going to the park is better than heading for coffee or for drinks. No costs involved. Taking the woman out is no guarantee that it will lead to a second date, never mind sex. As I see it, this is a risk that I’m not completely sold on. But, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Therefore, I try to minimize the risk and the costs.

    • Nupnupnup on said:

      Only the reactionary part of the manosphere (some would say the misogynists) is against women in the workforce and frankly it is that part that hurts general acceptance of the movement the most. Quite aside the moral question, that stance is objectively not a sound idea even on simple economic grounds.

      Personally, I have no problem with that at all (in fact, let em pay their own way) and in fact, give me more female professionals (that can only help to enlarge my dating pool) as long as they behave in a (somewhat) rational way at work and are treated the same (IOW, no woman bonus).

    • koevoet on said:

      I always prefer it if a woman offers to pay her share because in my experience, only entitled women expect you to pay for their entertainment. After she offers I insist that I pay. If they let me without much fuss than I can tell they are at least partially interested. If they won’t let me pay then I assume that there will be no date #2. I have been told by at least one woman I hold in high esteem that she will not let a man pay if she has no interest in seeing him again. I have been told by numerous woman that I hold in middling to high esteem that when a man at least offers to pay is gentlemanly and therefore somewhat more attractive (so long as other factors are already accounted for). They also said that any man who expects the woman to pay for both of them will typically not get a second date. (Later on this is relaxed.)

    • Doc I: I’m pretty sure that most everyone would not agree that men of the manosphere “hate feminists and feminism” or “are against ‘independent,’ ’empowered,’ and ‘masculine’ women” or that we don’t want women in the workforce. Absolutely there are not a few manosphere bloggers who would fit that description, but it’s too blanket a statement to cover the manosphere in general.

      A very few, such as Vox Day (though more on his political blog, not his Alpha Game manosphere blog), don’t approve of women in the workforce, but more for economic and political reasons than for inter-gender relations reasons. Most of the manosphere looks down on women who describe themselves as “independent and empowered” because these are masculine traits that tend to diminish a woman’s naturally attractive femininity. I generally to agree that a woman who emphasizes independence and empowerment tend to turn out to be opinionated, bitchy, and dominating, all inherently unattractive qualities in a woman.

      My own take on feminists and feminism is that a woman who terms herself a feminist these days is a “third-wave” (or even “fourth wave”) feminist that isn’t primarily interested in women’s equality, but woman’s supremacy and is out to further change the nature and behavior of men solely for the benefit of women. These women are to be avoided, and, if they venture into the manosphere to spin their webs, mocked. But most women who would agree with general principles of equality don’t really consider themselves feminists.

      I don’t mind women working; it’s almost a requirement these days. In our current society and economy, a woman who does not work or cannot support herself raises red flags right there. That said, I always pay on early dates. I’m usually aware that my date can easily pay, but that’s not the point. But more often than not, the best dates usually at least offer the first couple of times and if the relationship goes beyond “early” dating, I have no problem in accepting an offer to pay once in a while. Handled with style and grace, it’s never been a problem for me.

      I’m not trying to game feminists or anyone else into paying for my drinks or dinner. So, Doc, I think you’ve gotten the basic premise wrong. Nor do I think that most of the manosphere thinks that way.

  11. Just saying on said:

    Dr Illusion.
    This concept of women not working is only a relatively new phenomenon, when economic prosperity (in the 50s) ensured that every family could live a comfortable middle to upper middle class lifestyle without requiring the wives/mothers to work. Historically, women have always worked, particularly at the lower economic classes. During agrarian times, women were expected to work the fields as hard as their men, leaving the eldest daughter or daughters (in their early teens) the responsibility of looking after the house and younger siblings. The farmers had to choose strong, study and hardy women to marry or their livelihoods and even lives could be at risk (particularly when they had to rely on their wives to keep the farms going when they were called up to fight in wars). Remember Thomas Hardy – the films if not the novels. All his female heroines (which reflected the realities of his era) had to work and work hard.

    The concept of “feminine” women was/is very very aristocratic. Women who were valued for their youthful looks and artistic accomplishments (music, art, craft, etc) were all invariably from noble or aristocratic families. Women who need not contribute financially to anything because they could be kept and appreciated simply for their beauty and feminity. The plebs and peasants did not have the luxury of making this choice.

    I truly believe that notions of attractiveness, sexual or otherwise have a very strong economic origins, and have everything to do with men and their positions in the male hierarchy more than anything to do with women per se. Sure, men are attracted to youth and youthful comeliness, but wanting their women not to work smacks of desiring a hierarchical ranking associated with upper class/aristocracy rather than anything specifcally anti-feminism. Men are subconciously petrified of low status and ranking more than anything – and of course the bottom of the female barrel they have to scrape as a result of this. The lack of sex may or may not have gotten men killed (ie – where men did stupid things to qualify themselves to other men to get sex – remember back then men controlled sexual access to their daughters, not the daughters themselves ) but low status and ranking always almost guaranteed his demise.

    • I suppose I’m just old fashioned and cling to bygone ideals. My family was wealthy, and I grew up thinking men worked and women cooked/cleaned/raised kids. I have never been happy dating a working woman. I have a serious, complex and dangerous job. Coming home from a 16 hour shift to hear a woman whining about how hard her 8 hour day at the bank was just pisses me off.

      My girlfriend brought up the idea of getting a job once. I asked her if she wanted help packing her things.

  12. “Going for the kiss is a bold and confident maneuver. Women adore that, no matter what they say”
    So so so true! And so manly…

  13. I just got a request from a guy friend to pick out some casual outfits I’d like. He’s set on suits and such for work – needs casual clothes that would appeal to women. The best thing would be for me to take him shopping, but I’m literally on the other side of the world right now, and he lives on the east coast while I live in the midwest. He needs to work his ass off running (or something equally effective), but for now… clothes. At least he’s started to embrace the idea of working out, though. He bikes now. So, clothes are so individual, beyond certain general guidelines! This is why I’ve been buying the same pair of jeans for 8 years… not just something within the same line, but the same, exact model #. Do any of you have any links to sites you’ve had good luck with – with links to specific outfits if possible? I know what I like, and what generally appeals to most women. Grooming grooming grooming. Hygiene hygiene hygiene (floss your teeth don’t just brush them, and do it every day dammit)! so between that and sifting through whatever you guys might post, I think I can at least give him some leads. I think he needs a personal shopper with a great reputation though, and that will also be part of my advice.

    • Hamster Tamer on said:

      Your “guy friend” (LJBF much?) needs a MAN to give him wardrobe directions, a single man who is successful with the ladies… or simply a GQ magazine, since single wimminz are such puppets of the pop culture media. (How else would wimminz always know the price of a man’s shoes?)

      No matter how earnest your intentions, you’ll most likely end up making him attractive only to gay men, lol, that’s just how the (subconscious, beta-despising) hamster tumbles. Upon marrying, women then start dressing their husbands so that they’re attractive to NO one, i.e. eliminating ALL competition for “her” man/provider.

  14. Am I a flake? I joined PoF and within 2-3 days met this great guy. Unfortunately, December sucked for me as far as arranging dates or anything. I explained this to him repeatedly- I like you but this month is a nightmare. Not my norm, but it is what it is.
    Long story short, we had our date and it was great- amazing. He has a major not-fun trip planned, I still had a bunch of crap going on (no drama, family business obligations that only come up once a year), so we don’t text each other for 2 days. I was working my butt off to clear my schedule and i assumed he was dealing with his pre-trip stuff. (Time line: date, 2 days of lots of texting/conversation, 2days of silence) He then texts me to dump me because I have “communication issues.” I’m stunned and hurt. A little advice would be greatly appreciated.

    • After a great first date and good follow up communication, you don’t text each other for two days?

      And how many seconds does it take to send a text? Lady, you can text while sitting on the toilette. If he went to radio silence, why didn’t you text him something friendly? This guy knows the rules. You don’t. If a woman (or man, too) is really attracted, no personal or job issues will stop communication.

      Texting is so easy yet you both stopped for two days. You’re just not into each other.

      • Since I’m very new to online dating and even newer to your blog- which I adore- I have a quick follow up. How much communication is too much? My guy friends are always complaining that the women they date never give them a moments peace. And yes, I clearly do not know the rules, that’s why I’m reading your blog.

      • A couple of texts a day is quite reasonable. Two days of radio silence shows lack of interest.

    • TPM is right, two days of silence after a single date shows lack of interest. “Communications issues” is an excuse; don’t take it to heart. One or two texts a day, keeping it light, at least maintains contact, and hopefully interest, even if you are busy.

      But this is the primary reason that I don’t bother with online dating after Thanksgiving. There’s just too much going on that it makes getting together all that more difficult. However, after New Years is prime time for online dating. So, Suz, chalk this one up to experience and get back on the ride after next week.

      • @LS- Agreed! If you knew the calls/texts/emails I got over the last 72 hours from ex’s/dates, looking for a NYE date… Pathetic!
        Happy New Year!

    • @Suzy

      If you’re going to do online dating, learn to be happy with quick ejects – move on – plenty of fish as it were.

      Methinks there was something else there – like he simply wasn’t into you and he lacked courage to say so. “Communications issue” is lame

      If you do like the guy, you can always try agree & amplify as a last ditch – Him “We shouldn’t see each other again” You – “You’re right – it would never work” Him – now curious “Why do you say that?” You – “Because I like sex too much and you seem like a nice guy” and then sit back and watch his head explode.

      Crap – I prolly shouldn’t have let this trick out – might have to turn in my Man Card now for traitorous actions

      • @tj- thanks for the input. You are probably right. This one was just… different. Regardless, it’s done. No harm, no foul. And thank you SO much for the tip, I will be using that one in the future 🙂
        Happy New Year!

    • Hamster Tamer on said:

      Uh-oh, The Hamster is hard at work, deep into both self-deception mode and Princess mode. We need only re-order the sentences of her first paragraph to see this:

      Even though December sucked for me as far as arranging dates or anything, that was exactly the time I picked to start PoF. 🙄 In fact, I jumped in with both feet, and snared a great guy within 2-3 days… I like you but this month is a nightmare–I explained this to him repeatedly… = “It’s not you, it’s me…” (LOL)

      I Ass-U-me-d he (a guy I’ve known for 45 minutes) was dealing with his pre-trip stuff 😳

      So the “communication” Mr. Great Guy receives is… SuzyV is a busy frenetic drama queen, whose ladder of values, from greatest to least is: Her Job, her side job, celibate holiday activities, her shoes, her dog, her dog’s poop… and lastly, Mr. PoF “great” guy.

      He’s thinking “yep, I’m so ‘great’ she can’t send me a 5-word-flirt. She’s doing ‘The Rules’ hard-to-get schtick on me, meanwhile, my inbox is blowing up with hot babes desperate for a NYE date… Gosh, I can’t believe this level of disinterest/disrespect failed to reel him in. 🙄

      PS: TPM is backed up with new ventures and old profiles, but if you have dark hair, light eyes, a WHR of .69 or less, and haven’t donated money to NOW in the last 12 months, I will review your online profile, gratis. Just shoot the link to TPM, and he’ll forward it.

      • @HT- wow… What an incredibly angry person you are… If you look at my post, I did not attack the guy in question, I questioned myself.

        Thank you for your incredible lack of insight.

        So according to you, I should abandon all of my obligations, and chase after someone I just met a hot second ago. I wonder what you would have written if I said, “I met this great guy on PoF, so I dumped all my prior obligations to go hang out with him. Now, I’ve been fired, my family is furious at me, and he won’t let me move in! What a jerk!” Yeah… Exactly.

        I didn’t text/call him, that was wrong. I freely admit that and accept responsibility for the results of my actions. Period.

        He also didn’t contact me, which as someone above stated, probably means he just wasn’t that in to me. I don’t assume every man I meet is going to fall at my feet and declare his undying adoration.

        I can accept that and not think he is a bad person. He is still a great guy and I wish him the best.

        Why you feel the need to call me names says far more about you than it does about me or my post.

        I await your nasty tirade on what a bad person I am.


      • Nupnupnup on said:

        Angry? I would not know that. Spot on? Absolutely – the truth hurts, usually.

        Seriously, if you liked him and the date went well enough but cannot spare 10 seconds for a text (heck you could even write it while taking a dump, such is the beauty of SMS), then stop whining.

        Nobody was suggesting that you should dump your obligations and go all EPL with him.

        Next time, do the exact opposite of what The Rules prescribe. The Rules are projections from women based on how they want MEN to behave (I skimmed over them once, they read a lot like old school game material). Unfortunately, men want women to behave in quite a different way.

    • It’s me… I told a little white lie… “communication issues” is code for “I met someone who makes more ‘WOW’ time for me than you do…” No hard feelings, no judgements, plenty of fish… Happy NY, yadda-yadda…

  15. No, not spot on.

    I don’t play games with people- if I like you, you know it. I didn’t read a book on how to manipulate people and apply that to my dating life. I’m not a “The Rules” woman.

    I screwed up. I admit that. The end.

    • Nupnupnup on said:

      He IS spot on in his interpretation of how this came across. The intention does not really matter here – perception is reality.

      Good for you that you accept that you screwed up. Learn from it. Better luck next time! (I mean this in all seriousness, BTW, while I can be a nasty bastard spewing vitriol I am equally willing to give the benefit of the doubt if people show some sort of progress in understanding what they did wrong)

      • Nupnupnup on said:

        One more thing: “if I like you, you know it” generally when women utter that line, they have quite a different idea of what level you will know they like you in mind than men. Hint: unless you initiate kino and escalate it to making out, it does not count as us knowing it.

      • Hopefully, this is the end of the subject:

        He was not “spot on” when he said I am a drama queen who put the guy last. Obviously, the details of my obligations have not been listed, but they were neither frivolous nor enjoyable. However, I made promises and I kept them. If that makes me a drama queen, please send over the tiara.


    • Nupnupnup on said:

      Reading comprehension my dear. He did not say you are a drama queen, he wrote that this is what the other side perceives your action as (drama queen might be a little exaggerated for effect but basically true).

      • Hamster Tamer on said:

        Indeed, spot on, Nup–I was relating how it “comes across” on the guy’s end of the line.

        While I certainly don’t intend to add to anyone’s angst or anguish, the thinking man looks on in wry wonder at the all too predictable tragicomedy, to wit:

        1) female comes to male-dating-issues blog to garner male-perspective on her “girl game”; 2) condemned by XY genetic programming to “be useful/solve problems”, one or more males proffers said perspective;
        3) male perspective does NOT match “happily ever after” chick-lit script (printed on inner surface of hamster wheel, for repeated consumption);
        4) female does NOT use male perspective to adjust and calibrate her game, but instead “goes shopping”… where “shopping” = deflect, project, lash out, defend, accuse… ANYthing but say “hey, I need to change a few things in my dating practices”.

        I only hope that no kittens or baby harp seals died because of my perspective/answer.

        As Joe Montegna said in ‘House of Games’: “I’m a bad man, I’m a verrrry bad man.” ;^)

    • JulesK on said:

      I think the blog owner gave the fairest assessment here – neither of you were *that* into each other. I certainly don’t want to see you beating yourself up over fulfilling obligations that keep you gainfully employed, and in the good graces of your family and close friends – and then constantly second-guessing in the future. This could so easily have gone the other way – you texted him every day and he still called it off, and you could easily have been bashed to bits for being overly eager. When you meet someone you really like and they really like you it should be a bit easier than all of that…

  16. Titanium on said:

    The only thing I don’t agree with is the bailout call/text. I put the phone away on a date and I expect my date to do so as well. If the date is bombing, just chug your drink, pay, and say goodbye. Leaving under the pretense of having received an emergency call seems wimpy.

    The last two dates who flaked both said they were sick and wanted to reschedule. I didn’t bother because I figured I was very low on their priority list. Was I too quick to dismiss? I see it like this: if I really wanted to meet someone, a little cold is not going to keep me from meeting her.

    • @Jules – yes – you were too quick to bail. If they want/are willing to reschedule, then they are interested. You might be okay showing up while sick, but consider it a Good Thing they want to be at their very best. Plus, you can totally riff off of this – bring a box of Kleenex or can of Chicken Noodle soup with you on the rescheduled meetup or A & A this like “Yeah – we should reschedule – you’ll need all your energy to keep up with me” or whatever.

  17. Pingback: First Date From Online Dating – Protocol For Women « The Private Man

  18. Pingback: First Date From Online Dating – Protocol For Women « The Private …

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