The Private Man

Attraction and dating information for all men

Reader Mailbag – The 30Something Single Professional Woman

This very interesting email arrived just last night. I must credit the writer with coming forward and offering some honest insights about herself and the challenges of meeting the type of men she is attracted to.

I happened upon your blog by accident, and I am fascinated. On paper, I am perhaps your epitome of pushy, hard-headed female — I am very educated (lawyer), ruthlessly independent (by necessity–a girl’s gotta live until she meets her mate, right?), capable and young-ish (just turned 30).

Being independent is fine and expected. Doing it to the point where you think that you don’t need anyone is taking it too far. As social creatures and living in a social environment, human beings rely on each other constantly. When the need arises, we turn to specialists such as physicians and plumbers. Every day we interact with people and use their skills for our benefit. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Like the feminists before me, I do not need a man to save me from my life. Unlike them, however, I have learned that I can change a tire and do quite a number of other things without the assistance of a y chromosome, but I don’t actually want to. Although I cannot say that I want to spend my days barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, I do want my house to smell like cookies during the holidays and I want someone to mow the lawn, who I can praise for a job well done that I don’t have to pay. I know a shocking number of intelligent and attractive females of my age who share these thoughts.

This is the crux of the matter. A small, noisy, and unrealistic group of people has created the expectation that women should act like men to reach some type of mythical “equality”. That’s contra naturum (against nature) and will fail. Biology. Always. Wins. This young woman has a longing to be feminine, to show nurturing, to show care. Yet she – and others she knows – obviously feels massively conflicted about this. How can a hard-charging lady lawyer also bake cookies without violating some feminist expectation? Easy, she can ignore such social expectations because they were created by idiots. Consider this expectation – why is she not baking holiday cookies?

I haven’t expressed this concern to my girlfriends, but I am secretly afraid that we (intelligent, independent women that I know) are somehow secretly scaring away (or not attracting?) the men we are most attracted to: a competent and confident male.  Basically, someone we respect enough to let lead. I do not think there is a greater compliment that I can pay to a man than to: (1) ask him his opinion and (2) follow his advice.

This is also quite relevant. She’s looking for a competent and confident man. All women are looking for such a guy. These fellows are at the top 20% of men and they have options regarding women. As has been said before, what does she offer a competent and confident man? Is she truly feminine? Is she physically attractive? Is she pleasant, happy, warm, passionate, and caring? Without such qualities, she’s not scaring anyone away, she’s simply unattractive as a woman. But I sense in her words that she knows the score and hasn’t yet completely admitted it. And why the obsession with independence? You want independence? Go survive in the woods all alone. In meantime, count how many times each day you rely on something created by someone else (usually a man). That road didn’t build itself. That courthouse didn’t spontaneously appear.

I am to the point now that I question whether such men exist in my small part of the world. Sadly, I have turned to the on-line world and seem to only attract guys with a million kids by 8 different women, who can’t support themselves, much less their progeny. No, I am not looking to be my man’s mother. Or, I attract a man who lacks confidence and self-worth. If he doesn’t value himself, why should I? Or if he is incapable of making his own life decisions, I am certainly not going to let him make mine.

Competent and confident men do exist but they are attracted to the feminine and our letter-writer has yet to embrace and express her femininity with authenticity. Years of “conventional wisdom” has inculcated in her a masculine frame. I’ve read her online dating profile and she used the word “competitive” to describe herself. Competitive? Really? Cupcake, you can’t compete with men. Men always win. We’re stronger, more intelligent, far more patient, and willing to take the kinds of risks that women would never even conceive of. Don’t compete with men, cooperate with them. Men are not your rivals. Men are not the enemy. Men are your partners, protectors, and providers if you let them.

As an aside, do the dating exercise for women (links below). It can be life-changing. Also, do not bash men nor let your friends do the same. That’s an exercise in profound negativity and will poison your psyche about men in general. It’s also pure bigotry. Additionally, don’t ever discuss your dating endeavors with anyone (link below), especially your single female friends.

[Sidebar: Gentlemen, re-read this line often: “If he is incapable of making his own life decisions, I am certainly not going to let him make mine.” That’s gold.]

Hers is the dilemma that will become a massive social issue in the coming years. For educated women, there simply won’t be enough eligible men. As every Manospherian knows, hypergamy is biologically wired and no amount of social expectation will convince women to marry “down”.

I am curious as to your thoughts regarding my lack of success. Maybe it is all me–maybe I’m too fat or more difficult to work with than I think. I am in [redacted], 30 years old, single, average, never married, no kids.

I’ve seen her photos and read her profile. She has a reasonably attractive face but needs to lose weight. Also, she doesn’t stress enough her feminine qualities nor does she describe what she offers the competent and confident man that she seeks (link below). There is a massive shortage of femininity in modern women. Those women who understand that the feminine – in looks and actions – attracts the masculine will be the ones attracting that minority of competent and confident men.

A Dating Exercise For Women

A Dating Exercise For Women – Amazing Follow Up

A Huge Dating Secret For Women

Helpful Hint For A Woman’s Online Dating Profile

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206 thoughts on “Reader Mailbag – The 30Something Single Professional Woman

  1. Thank you. After too many years being in the driver’s seat, I lost the ability to read the signs on the map. I need to be told what to do and your posts are extremely helpful in steering me in the right direction.

    • Annie:

      Is this sarcasm?

      • It is not. I’m very sorry my comment is taken as sarcasm. It is actually a very humbling admission of my past faults. I have a strong desire to change the course of my life and TPM as well as his readers are offering me very valuable insights. I am grateful.

      • “It is not. I’m very sorry my comment is taken as sarcasm. It is actually a very humbling admission of my past faults. I have a strong desire to change the course of my life and TPM as well as his readers are offering me very valuable insights. I am grateful.”

        Oddly enough, Annie, from the preceding words alone, I consider you to be “stronger” and more “independent” than 30somethinglawyer.

        I use the term “stronger” because it is common parlance, though erroneously applied in the context it frequently used.

        Men don’t want “strong” women; they want resilient women.

        Women that can endure hardships in life such as misfortune, poverty, adversity and myriad other challenges all while remaining positive, helpful and encouraging.

        And that is what just those few words of yours present you to be.

        [Any man reading my comment saying they would not desire what I have mentioned above is either a liar or a fool.]

        Regarding “independence”, you are railing against literally decades of brianwashing along with risking censure and ridicule—things often more difficult for women to endure than men—which, in my opinion is not only intellectually “independent” but somewhat courageous.

  2. Spoos in August on said:

    At least within fields men tend to go more for the higher-paying ‘gunner’ specialties, so hypergamous urges can be sated even within a physician couple, for instance. However, these men are also likely to be snapped up by other less educated, younger women.

    Ultimately, the SMP, when freed of social ‘regulation,’ defaults toward favoring the top 20% of attractive men and -nobody- else. Which feminists didn’t realize, or else they wouldn’t have so gleefully dismantled the traditional, monogamous paradigm.

    • This is why Game is so invaluable . . . it makes it more difficult to spot the top 20%, once the rest of them start to learn how to mimic the behavior and (ideally) actually get on a MAP that pushes them into the top 20.

      But yeah, this lady has screwed herself out of a life with a man, because she spent her highest capital years in Law School. You’ve identified the issues completely: if you want love, demonstrate that you are lovable. If you want a mate, demonstrate that you are matable. If you want someone you respect enough to allow to lead you, then demonstrate that you can be respectful. “Competitive” might as well scream “Pathologically Bitchy” to most single dudes. You don’t want to be competitive with your woman.

      And “independent” is pure fail. If you’re independent, you don’t need a man. If you don’t need a man and just “want” a man, then the dude knows he’s signing on to be, at best, a new accessory, not the Captain of your ship. If you can’t admit your need to depend on someone, then your potential date knows he’s going to have to fight with you to get you acknowledge his mastery. Why bother with that, when the competition is so fierce for his attention?

      The reader is sitting at the same bar with a 25 year old “sexually liberated, uninhibited tart” who is sexually adventurous and sees the reader’s potential-father-of-her-children as tasty mature man, a lovely addition to her Number collection and a possible gateway to opportunities. On the other side of the bar is the 45 year old MILFy divorcee who is jaded, horny, disillusioned, and driven to prove that she hasn’t lost her appeal — she sees the reader’s future husband as tasty younger man, a lovely addition to her Number collection and possible gateway to a regular booty-call with the occasional social function. Both of those competitors are going to be gunning hard for your dude . . . so you HAVE to have more to offer (and sooner) than either of them, or risk the aroma of Friskies Buffet into your lonely retirement.

      So what CAN you offer a dude?

      Stability. Most dudes are sick of flakiness. Indeed, “Flaky is the new Fat”. A chick who can’t balance her own bank account is unlikely to have “wife potential”, and if you’ve moved more than three times in the last five years, you’re not settled enough for a serious boyfriend, let alone a husband. Stability is your weapon against the young slut at the end of the bar.

      Adventure. While dudes don’t dig flaky, they also don’t dig boring. If you can’t manage Stability and Adventure at the same time, that’s a red flag to a guy. And yes, that includes sexual adventure, first and foremost. The last thing he wants to imagine is that his future will include a whole lot of pizza and Dancing With The Stars on the couch and a steadily-declining sex life. Demonstrate that you have a willingness to experiment, that your best sexual years are ahead of you, and that you can handle yourself in a variety of environments and you will have given him an idea of what lies ahead. Your willingness to pursue adventure (while avoiding unnecessary drama) is your biggest weapon against the cougar at the other end of the bar.

      But most importantly? Stop evaluating every dude you meet by the standards of the Matrix, and start looking at the whole person. Plenty of guys seem unambitious, when the fact is that they have no reason to be ambitious. Don’t judge a man’s worth by his annual salary. Don’t discriminate against a dude because he lacks formal education if he has a strong technical education. Plenty of smart, good potential fathers are fully capable of being doctors and lawyers, but they prefer to work with their hands. Consider those men by the strength of their character, not by what they can provide for you materially.

      I hate to say it, but the clock is ticking . . . and you aren’t the only player on the field. Unless you take aggressive action and expand your parameters to re-define your idea of masculine success, then you’re going to be one of those women who “almost” got married, but “just never seemed to find the right guy”. Not a happy sight.

      I wish her the best of luck. She’s going to need it.

      • DC Phil on said:

        Some sense of shame would work against flakiness. After all, if the Herd doesn’t punish Cupcake for flaking, then she’s not likely going to avoid flaking if she can get away with it. Men don’t count to the Herd. Women respond very well to shaming because it’s collectivism at work — something that men usually aren’t a part of.

      • This. Comments closed.

  3. Brilliant and true. Embrace your femininity, girls.

  4. As a middle aged married man with kids, let me offer my two cents about your correspondent. Some of this is repetitive of what you said but I think needs amplification:

    1. She is to be credited with her willingness to come forward.

    2. She needs to concern herself much, much more with what she can offer a man.
    She is far too preoccupied with what she wants and needs.

    3. She needs to embrace her femininity. She is afraid to do so because she fears it will result in the loss of her “independence” and identity. I halfway don’t blame her for this; years of education, saturation in this culture, and running with men in one of the most male-dominated professions has taught her this.

    4. She needs to accept that an LTR and/or marriage is a series of compromises so that both get most of what they want. She is fearful that meeting a confident, competent man, and marrying him, will result in the loss of her independence and identity. And, yes, she will have to compromise some of her “independence”, which isn’t really independence anyway.

    5. She needs to accept that she is not going to get everything she wants in a man.

    6. She is not scaring off attractive men. Attractive men are not attracted to her. They don’t find her intimidating, they just find her unattractive.

    7. Her lack of attractiveness has to do with the following, in roughly this order:
    a. Her weight.
    b. Her perseveration on her “independence” and “competitiveness”. This makes her look bitchy and insecure, even if she is neither.
    c. Her age.
    d. Her occupation. (Female lawyers are known as a group to be unattractive ballbuster bitches, even if particular individual female lawyers are not. She needs to downplay this a lot.)

    TPM, i hope this does not fall on deaf ears. I am really starting to wonder if some of the help we dish out here is really helping anyone.

    • It is helping, I have some emails to back that up. It’s just that we’re bucking a generation (or two) of social expectations and that’s hard for people to publicly accept. Privately, I suspect that both men and women alike are shifting their attitudes. I have a surprising number of female readers, by the way.

      • I’m really glad to hear that. An outspoken commenter named Ashley has really killed my belief that we can convince others. She’s had a lot of good sense talked to her, but it mostly ends up at her feet. So far I’ve seen few individual successes.

    • Infantry on said:

      As a 6′ 32yo, fit, highly educated, confident, competent man earning 6 figures, I can agree with what Deti says. I would look past this girl for a smart 26yo who was fun and feminine.

  5. Part of me thinks you should just tell her to keep her standards really-uber high so that she never finds a guy to meet them, rather than lower them (which she’ll have to) in order to find a guy willing to marry her and save the poor upper-beta she’ll end up with a frivorce-rape in a few years.

    I don’t think you were honest enough with her. She probably won’t be able to get a guy who is a 9, 8 or even a 7 to marry her because she can’t compete at that level in the marriage market, especially at her age and her extra weight. A male at 7, 8 or 9 can just go down a decade in age and find what they want in droves. Hell, most of the time, it comes to them.

    Who she is currently attracting should be a STRONG indicator of what her value in the SMV/MMV actually is.

    • I am optimistic about a person’s ability to change. Aside from the weight and embracing her femininity, her next biggest challenge is the city where she lives and works. I know that particular city and it’s not exactly swimming with 30/40-something single, professional guys.

      I think this post should be forwarded to every high school guidance counselor in the country so they can present the consequences of educational decisions made while young.

      • I don’t question her ability to change on the short-term to get what she wants. I have reservations about how permanent those changes will be at her age and once she actually has what she thinks she wanted and it isn’t all about the smell of holiday cookies baking in the house.
        Also, she neglected to mention her N count.

        30-something, female lawyer in a city without many single guys sounds a lot like DC…

        I agree with the latter and considering that the high school guidance counselor is probably in the exact same boat as this woman, she may end up realizing her mistakes as well.

      • Ah, but will the high school guidance counselor actually tell girls about the consequences of going directly into college and then on to grad school? Or, will that counselor push the girl into college with the “you go, you empowered grrl!” as political correctness demands.

      • Depends on how far down the road she is. However, as you said, biology always wins.

  6. Cail Corishev on said:

    You nailed it with, “our letter-writer has yet to embrace and express her femininity with authenticity.” She wants her house to smell like cookies, but hasn’t reached the point where she wants to be the one baking them. She’s feeling the right instincts, but they’re so foreign to what she’s been taught that it’s still difficult for her to reach the obvious conclusions.

    No man ever found a woman attractive for her “independence.” Independent from what or whom? Maybe there was a time in the misty past when women reached marrying age while still being so attached to their parents that they couldn’t properly start a new life with a husband. But that’s not a problem today. So when a man hears “independent,” he thinks, “she doesn’t let anyone tell her what to do about anything.” If he’s smart, he adds, “including me.”

    • “Maybe there was a time in the misty past when women reached marrying age while still being so attached to their parents that they couldn’t properly start a new life with a husband.”

      Very true. I heard an example of this from a good friend of mine who married a few decades ago.
      They had just got to their honeymoon destination and she came down with really horrible pneumonia. It basically confined them to the hotel room. She was very sick and hacking up all kinds of nastiness. At the end of the first day, she begged, pleaded and wept for him to take her home to be with her parents, that they could take care of her (implication being that he couldn’t). He told her “No. I am your husband. I take care of you now.” And he did. They spent the entire honeymoon confined to the hotel room and him cleaning up all the nasty shit that comes up from such an awful case of pneumonia.
      Basically, he performed a hugely Alpha maneuver by establishing his dominance over her by trumping her parents while she was totally helpless and then backing it up with serious Beta comforting skills.

  7. There is a danger in telling women what men like because then they can just fake it till he signs on the dotted line. Its the same thing as men faking alpha behaviour through game to get what they want. Its just an act.

    Any woman who want to “learn” feminine behaviour to land a man is just looking to game a man. Most women already are experts in this to a large extent.

    A genuinely feminine woman cannot help being feminine even if makes her lose her man. That’s the difference between real and fake behaviour. We need to find a way to change women’s false beliefs (that they don’t need men for example) but without giving them any shortcut ideas (fake dependence for example).

    I don’t mean to downplay the importance of what you are trying to say. I’m just afraid that manosphere might be helping women game men.

    • I’m just afraid that manosphere might be helping women game men.

      This is interesting and I can’t help but to agree with you. Perhaps even now some clever woman looking to land her alpha-provider is reading Manosphere blog posts and refining her strategy and tactics. But remember that Red Pill wisdom is about encouraging instinctual behaviors in women, not the idiotic social expectations that go against instinct. The same applies to men. Red Pill wisdom want competence, confidence, charisma, and dominance in men – this are instinctual things. Relying on our instincts is far easier to do than contorting our characters to fit a completely unnatural social expectation. Instincts need to be tempered at times, to be sure. But completely going against those instincts? Biology. Always. Wins.

    • Cail Corishev on said:

      Except that much of what women need to do to be more attractive can’t be faked. As Deti pointed out, #1 for most is to lose weight. If she just needs to lose a few pounds, she may be able to starve it away long enough to snag a guy, but not many people can lose a significant amount of weight and keep it off until the engagement without making real changes in their diet and lifestyle.

      A woman might need to let her hair grow longer and wear more feminine clothes like skirts and dresses. If she does that for a year or two, long enough to get the ring, is she going to chuck it all after the wedding? I’d guess that the ones who hate femininity that much won’t be able to fake it that long. The women I know who tried dressing more feminine found that they really liked it and would never go back.

      This woman’s job is holding her back, so she might need to give up lawyering — or if that’s too extreme, find a way to make it less ball-busting. Instead of going to work at a firm with a bunch of other hard-driving lawyers, maybe work from home giving legal advice to families and small businesses. I don’t know enough about the job to make specific recommendations, but most skills that can be used in a competitive 60-hour-week office environment can be scaled down to a home business. Many of the stay-at-home moms I know bake the cookies in between filling orders for customers of some kind or another.

      So I think that “girl game” may be as hard or harder to fake than “guy game.” If a guy really applies Game consistently and for a long enough period to attract and keep a good woman, he’s liable to reach a point where he’s internalized it and he’s not faking any more. Likewise, if a girl loses weight, reorients her life so her career isn’t her highest priority, gets rid of her man-hating and/or slutty friends, and selects a more feminine wardrobe, I suspect she too will change in real ways over time.

      • Cail:

        “#1 for most is to lose weight.”

        Over the past 20 to 30 years, women really have gotten heavier. Most women can increase their SMVs considerably if they could just get within 10 pounds of their ideal weights.

    • Dillon, TPM:

      “Any woman who want to “learn” feminine behaviour to land a man is just looking to game a man. Most women already are experts in this to a large extent.”

      This is probably happening already through no fault or credit of the manosphere. All of us know of the carousel rider who fucks like a man, acts like a man and is a total bitch; but then reaches age 29 and suddenly finds her inner housewife/cookie baker. Is this woman “learning” female behavior to land a man? Or is she simply shedding the masculine behavior and uncovering what was always there in the first place?

      I do agree women are experts in “girl game”. Women in my view instinctively know how to work the emotional angles, press the emotional buttons, manipulate, use sex, use feminine charms and wiles, and bat eyelashes.

      • Deti – I tend to lean toward the latter angle – IMO, there are a great number of professional women who simply don’t “know” how to be traditionally feminine. In many ways, I see their journey as similar to those of us taking the red pill – to unlearn unproductive behaviors and to learn new traits.

        I’m down with that.

      • Yes I think the “independent” type are just beta women who don’t get men and need help attracting men.

        I have no problem with a woman acting feminine to attract me (a shut mouth is a shut mouth) as long as I don’t fooled into thinking NAWALT and lose half my stuff and kids.

        Men undestimate how dynamic women are. Women quickly change their own beliefs to suit the best possible outcome for them. Be careful with “internalization of feminine behaviour” theory. What changes one way can change the other way too at a later date.

        I think any man is safe as long as he doesn’t sign up for marriage or common law union.

      • Infantry on said:

        All of us know of the carousel rider who fucks like a man, acts like a man and is a total bitch; but then reaches age 29 and suddenly finds her inner housewife/cookie baker.

        IME years of carousel riding leaves a stain on the soul. If you’re red pill trained with experience at screening (look at what they do, not what they say) you will find ‘tells’ that speak of their past life. They’re subtle and not so easily removed. Individually they’re fine, but if you find ‘clusters’ then you’ve got a fair idea of what’s going on. A lot of the time a man’s gut will pick up on things, but you can conciously notice things.

        The biggest red flag of all is a woman not being able to pair-bond. I’ve recently broken up with a couple of girls who couldn’t understand why until I explained.

        The first one who had major tells of carousel riding and was trying to land a provider responded with ‘Who told you about me?’

        With no hard evidence I said to the second, ‘You think that you care about me, but think about how excited the past men before me made you compared to me.’ She responded through tears, ‘Yes, but those guys were a little crazy like me’.

        Both had ‘good girl’ shells and were attempting to be feminine. The sad thing was is that these girls genuinely wanted to bond, settle down, raise a family and be happy. I have no doubt blue pill guys will marry these girls.

      • @infantry
        could you elaborate of the more subtle tells, i have an idea but i just want to confirm something in my own head. She’s a 30 yr old management consultant who i suspect has been around a bit..

      • Infantry on said:

        @meme This was answered below by Deti and myself. Do a search for my posts in this thread.

    • just visiting on said:

      This is just the “fake alpha” argument in reverse.

  8. My best female friend – mid 30s accountant, 7, no kids – puts it rather eloquently. She doesn’t want to HAVE to wear the pants in the family.

    Pretty much says it all.

    • That shows something deep about female psychology. In women’s eyes, *someone* is always wearing the pants.

      Blue pill men (old me included) often believe in “egalitarian”, “fair”, “equal” relationships. Nobody wearing the pants. Women say they want this—but at an unconscious level they’ll often interpret any deference on his part as weakness, making her wear the pants. Red pill men understand that women only respect men who lead, even if that’s not what women say. Red pill men put on the fucking pants (begrudgingly, in my case) and lead.

      • Lumpy – I agree with this. Part of the joy of taking the Red Pill is discovering the joy of leading. I wouldn’t have understood what my friend meant while I was still being an egalitarian hubby. But now? Totally understand.

      • Yeah Lumpy I bought all the equal relationship stuff hook, line and sinker in my former Blue Pill days, and I can honestly say that I find it challenging to take and maintain the lead. For me, I think not just because of the feminist imperative, but also due to long-held personality traits. I’ve never been very competitive, even as a boy, nor had a strong desire to lead anyone. (Though throughout my life, I often find myself taking the lead whether I want to or not.) So it goes. I do the best that I can with my newly opened eyes and ears.

        I have a real life analogy. I took a latin dance class with my wife ten or more years ago, and I just could not get the concept of leading. (I also have trouble with remembering steps and counting beats, etc.) The male dance instructors were absolutely baffled by me. They just couldn’t comprehend that I could not lead my woman. They would give me extra help, but they would get really frustrated. When my wife and I would dance they would see her take the lead away from me, and it used to make them crazy. They would take me aside and say “You are the man. You can’t let her do that.” It would frustrate the hell out of me, because I figured it is a two-way street. At some level the woman must also allow herself to be led. Wrong.

        My solidly Blue Pill self would watch my wife dance with these instructors who would fling her all over the room like a rag doll. She loved it. And, it was such a frustration for me because here is this “Equal-Nobody Tells Me What to Do®” woman who is clearly enjoying being dominated. It was like dance cuckoldry for me, and I hated being the cuckold.

        But, with Red Pill hindsight I can see that I just didn’t have what it took to make her submit (confidence, mastery of the steps, physical dominance). At the time however, it was a huge cognitive dissonance for me to feel that I was lacking in being a man in the eyes of my instructors and my wife when it came to dance, yet in the rest of my life I was encouraged and praised for being a nice, fair, accommodating, easy-going, feminist-sympathizing, egalitarian guy. I was seeing glitches in the Matrix.

        My Blue Pill self clung to the idea of meet me halfway, but my Red Pill self knows you have to take the reigns and make it happen. However, applying this consistently in real life is the challenge. Getting and maintaining frame has been harder than I thought, but it has been an interesting challenge.

      • The Seething Lurker on said:

        “My solidly Blue Pill self would watch my wife dance with these instructors who would fling her all over the room like a rag doll. She loved it. And, it was such a frustration for me because here is this “Equal-Nobody Tells Me What to Do®” woman who is clearly enjoying being dominated. It was like dance cuckoldry for me, and I hated being the cuckold. “

        That’s an excellent analogy. As a child of the 1970’s, I grew up in the fem-centered matrix and was puzzled when my fiancé (not from the US) stated that she expected the man to take the lead in a marriage. I quite frankly slightly resented that statement, wondering, “what’s wrong with her?” While married, at many times I had no choice but to take the lead and even in those blue pill days, I started to see the glitches in the matrix. I never cease to be amazed at women’s cognitive dissonance. I’m having an easier time maintaining a dominant frame, but it takes some time to wash away stains of the feminist hegemony. I remind myself daily that leading is my duty and privilege as a man.

      • Completely relate, Wilf .Regretably, I am one of the least uncompetitive guys that you can meet. Never really had the gumption to lead in the past, and with my present GF, who is comfortable with me leading, I’// get tired of it when I do it.

        I took ball room dancing for about 4 years. Some people are naturals at it but many, like me, are not. Expecting yourself to be a great lead in the ballroom dancing context is a very, very high standard. Some guys just have the natural rhthym and coordination for it, but most do not. If you cant lead well in that context, it certainly does not mean you cannot do it in others.

        By the way, if you can lead at the level of a BR dance instructor than you will have a lot of interest from high value women because a great lead is a sure way to generate tingles in a woman. I know of a teracher who most women would probably rate as a 5 in looks, and is so poor he lives with his mother. But he has gone through a lot of 8’s and 9’s. Really a striking lesson in the power you have over women if you can give them the tingle.

    • Altimanix on said:

      And best of luck to whatever idiot chances marrying her.

      • Yes…..he’ll really suffer having a feminine woman in his life who wants him to have taken the Red Pill much as she’s discovered she doesn’t want to be power bitch – and has done something about it.


      • Altimanix on said:


        ooops. your comment could be read two ways:
        the way that you meant – good woman
        that she wears the trousers but ‘wishes’ she didn’t have to – the one I replied to


  9. PM: “And why the obsession with independence? ”

    Ditto. She *is* independent *now*. I broke up with my last girlfriend for that very reason. A likewise independent, competitive, stubborn chick who kept her hawt girl attitude from her early 20’s (sans the body and innocence). She had a gross overestimation of what she had to offer a guy. During it I told her “you like being independent… so now you are – bye”

    Compare this to the sweet sexy thing 6 yrs her jr, thinner, tighter bod, likes to cook, isn’t some snarky ball buster.

  10. Spacetraveller on said:


    I am not sure where the ‘independent’ word came from. Everyone who is not married (and therefore free to date) is ‘independent’. It is certainly no particular badge of honour so I don’t understand why it is bandied about like it is…

    When I lived at home with my parents, I used to mow the lawn because my Dad hurt his back and my lazy brother wouldn’t do it :-).
    I couldn’t change a tyre though. Kudos to your correspondent for being able to. But this does not make her ‘independent’ in any way, in the same way as being able to mow a lawn does not make me ‘independent’.

    As to her efforts at embracing her femininity, I think you make a good point: why ISN’T she baking cookies NOW? She is waiting to be married first, and only then become feminine all of a sudden?
    Bellita (who you mention in one of your links) tells a nice story of how she used to bake cookies for her parish priest (nevermind that he turned out to be diabetic, lol). I too bake cakes to take to work (actually, my alpha boss regularly games me into it, lol) but this means that we are ‘practisng’ all the time. When I get married I would already be used to baking and cooking.
    We should not delay displays of femininity until we are married. That’s a dreamer’s strategy.

    I really do hope that she is able to attract who she wants when she has lost some weight. Good luck to her!

    • Dillon on said:

      Yeah, I am mighty suspect of any 30 year old seeking tips on embracing her inner feminine after 15 years on the carousel. Sorry not falling for that one.

      SMV takes a nosedive and clock is ticking and suddenly they are like “Those evil feminists led brainwashed me and led me astray making me go on all those expensive vacations and gifts in return for sex and now I have realized the error of my ways and want to settle down and be mommy” lol…

      Dating sure. Marriage NO, bake all the cookies you want.

    • Space:

      “I am not sure where the ‘independent’ word came from. Everyone who is not married (and therefore free to date) is ‘independent’. It is certainly no particular badge of honour so I don’t understand why it is bandied about like it is…”

      That’s not how PM’s correspondent is using the word “independence”. In this context, “independence” is a loaded code word. It means she does not need a man. It means she will bristle at any attempt by a man to exercise dominance in a relationship with her.

      This is why the phrase “StrongIndependent Woman”(TM) is rightly derided and mocked. Such women are neither strong, nor independent, nor feminine.

    • Infantry on said:

      Bellita is pretty much a pioneer in inner girl game. In her own words she went from a sarcastic brat to a woman who embraces her feminity. If it can be done, I’d follow her roadmap. It’s the best chance a girl has of becoming more feminine. Pity she’s made her blog private now.

      Age isn’t necessarily a problem, any more than guys coming out of a divorce in their mid 40’s have problems with alpha’ing up after a lifetime of betaization. Granted masculinity is reinforced through experience, while femininity is reinforced through innocence, but I’ve seen incredibly feminine women at all ages in life.

      I think we can agree that girls need to want to be feminine for their own happiness and not to snag a man, but to be fair I think that comes as part of the process (and I think Bellita wrote something along those lines in one of her final posts). Back in the day when I used PUA as a gateway into taking the red pill, I only wanted to get girls. After a while you realise that its easier to actually fix the problems with yourself rather than putting on an act. Even later, you find out you like going to the gym and being a strong leader for its own sake.

      I think there’s a fair chance that women can rediscover their feminity and become good partners if they have genuinely good intentions. To be honest I really hope there’s a process that works for women. Don’t we all want more options in the MMP?

      • Infantry,
        Can you go into some of the tells of a former carousel rider? Or provide a resource that goes in to some of them?

        As someone who is newer to Red Pill thinking and knowledge, that kind of practical knowledge would be very helpful.

      • Infantry on said:

        I’d be reluctant to write a list. I really think a lot of them can only be picked up through experience, and I don’t want people dumping their girls because of some objective thing that the girls did. It’s a bit like using bodylanguage to tell if someone is lying in that regard, and then using that judgement to send someone to the electric chair.

        That said, with a big disclaimer attached, I’ll say that some PUA sites have posts on their message boards about ‘Freak tells’ which are loosely related. A ‘Freak’ is PUA lingo for a girl with one or more of certain personality traits that generally disqualify them as LTR material by MOST guys. (Club rats, Girls with Bi-Polar, Histrionic personality disorder, attention seekers etc). Some freak tells would be indiscrete tattoos (especially tramp stamps), multiple piercings, predilication for wearing large necklaces, big hoop earrings etc

        PUA game screening (as a subset of game if you like) isn’t directly geared towards finding LTR material girls. Its a shorthand for clustering personality types so you can adapt your game to give you the best results. Researching Freak Tells would *roughly* point you in the right direction for what you’re asking, but you need to take it with a large grain of salt.

        PUA definitions of the 3 classic categories of girls as defined by Player Supreme (Good Girls, Freaks and Ho’s) might be helpful. Once you’ve done that, I found the book ‘Practical Female Psychology’ by Joseph Went South, Franco and David Clare to be very helpful for spotting the female agenda, and providing some of the tells that you are asking for.

        Again, I need to stress that PUA game is limited in its scope and should not be used as a guide to screening for a LTR worthy girl (only experience with a wide variety of women can help you do that). All that aside, the PUAsphere is one of the few places I know where screening techniques are documented.

        I think there are other posts on screening for LTR worthy partners in the Manosphere that can provide a more balanced approach. Try PM’ing Privateman or the Badger. They may do a post on it if they haven’t already.

        Realistically, girls can get tattoos removed and take out their massive hoop earrings when its time to retire from (or get thrown off) the carousel. This is where only experience will help you. I’ve dated a lot of girls who were on the carousel, gotten off the carousel, or never ridden the carousel to begin with. That’s how I know.

        Sometimes its the way she zealously or awkwardly avoids certain topics about her past (N count, past boyfriends etc). Sometimes its her still-carousel-riding friends who let slip over a few drinks a reference to ‘That Time in Cancun™’. Could be her guy friend who seems to be remarkably player-esque even though they’ve been ‘friends since high school’. Any one of these things in isolation might be ok, but if you come across all of them…?

        The only thing I really trust is my experience. Also, I’ve been lucky enough to have girls fall deeply in love with me to the point that I *know* how love and pair-bonding effects the behaviour of girls. Its this last thing thats the most important:

        If she is not pair-bonded to you, do NOT commit to her.

      • ar10308:

        Here’s a list of slut tells/carousel rider tells. Your mileage will vary considerably. These are based on my experience and based on what others in the manosphere have said.

        1. How she broaches sex. She is either very open about it or very evasive about it.

        2. When asked about her N, she is extremely defensive and accuses the questioner of judgmentalism.

        3. Has a hard, weatherbeaten appearance. Looks a little older than her stated age. Look for signs of premature aging: crows feet, gray hairs, wrinkles at the decolletage or neck, receding gums — all in a woman who is 30 or under. All are signs of a woman who had not taken care of herself. SIgns of smoking, heavy drinking, all-night partying and possibly illegal drug use.

        4. The “reformed slut” vocabulary. Says things like:
        —I’m tired of the games.
        —I just want a nice guy who will treat me right.
        — I want to settle down.
        —I’m ready to get married now. I really want a family and kids.
        —I’m not like that anymore.
        —I’m not that person anymore.
        —You’re special. I want to wait with you. I know it will be great. I promise.
        —I want to do it the right way this time.
        —I don’t like doing THAT. I’m a nice girl. Nice girls don’t do THAT.

        5. She bemoans the sexual double standard: “A woman sleeps with lots of guys, she’s a slut. But if a guy sleeps with lots of girls, he’s a stud. THAT’S NOT FAAAAAIIIIRRR.”

        6. She is quick to defend slutty behavior in others.

        7. Her friends, past or present, are or were also sluts.

        8. She is around age 30, give or take a couple of years.

        9. She uses profanity frequently and profligately.

        10. There has been an abrupt change in her habits, mannerisms, speech patterns, lifestyle, or the kind of men she dates. For example, you are a responsible man working a cubicle job with your own apartment, but her past several BFs or dates were with high status men or local garage band dudes. Or, you are a weightlifter muscle “fatstrong” body type, but all her previous tastes in men ran to the skinny ectomorph type. Or, she has taken on a sudden interest in Christianity and throws herself into it with great gusto. (This is a favorite with sluts because of the redemption/salvation message Christianity offers. Sluts desperately want to relieve the detriments of their sluthood, and turn to Churchianity’s “born again virgin” nonsense for it.)

      • @Infantry and Deti,
        Thank you for your input. That is very helpful.

      • ar10308:

        Remember the “rule of 2”. Consider a woman’s N. Take the N she admits to and double it (some say triple it); and now you have a good idea of her true N.

        Women have a habit of fudging their Ns down. They try to exclude partners from their N by counting only sober P in V sex in a relationship. Their excuses?

        –it was only one time
        –It was only a handjob/blowjob/tittyfuck/rimjob
        –It was only anal
        –I didn’t like it
        –He didn’t like it
        –I didn’t come
        –He didn’t come
        –He didn’t finish because he got whiskeydick
        –I was drunk/high/stoned
        –he was drunk/high/stoned
        –I was on vacation/spring break
        –I was on a break from my BF
        –My friends don’t know about him
        –I was traveling in Europe/South America/on a study abroad semester
        –It just happened. I didn’t mean for it to happen.
        –He was just a friend

      • Infantry on said:

        The prophet speaks 🙂 I concur with what Deti has said.

  11. The Seething Lurker on said:

    I’d incorporate all the previous recommendations. However, it has to be stressed that weight loss is key. Men are visual creatures. Unlike other species, we find our mate not by sense of smell or a screech in the jungle but by vision. (See, Private Man: Biology. Always. Wins.) Therefore, the threshold for attracting that coveted man with options is looking your best, not by wafting the funkiest funk or have the hair raising screech that carries the furthest. There is no substitute. That’s the ticket to entry to the competition. If overweight, Go directly to Jail. Do not pass Go. Losing weight is not impossible. Eat what we as humans were designed to eat, whole natural foods and not calorie laden franken foods and the pounds will drop off. (See again, Private Man: Biology. Always. Wins.) It’s doable because I and countless others have done it. Once that issue is in order, the reader has to work on the femininity issues. Gosh, do we have say this? Its okay to be a girl. It is okay to be a woman. Let your hair down, relax, put down your guard. Don’t try to beat boys at boy’s games. The feminine attracts the masculine. Have fun. That’s what I’ll tell my daughters when they are at that age.

    • Altimanix on said:

      “weight loss is key”

      yeah and that your prospective beau hasn’t taken the red-pill…and thusly run for the hills from all Strong Independant Wimminz

  12. Interested on said:

    I can’t help but think of setting cement when I hear stories like hers. Men and women are still somewhat pliable when they come out of college. They have not worked in the real world yet and for the ambitious ones it represents an incredible period of growth and change. But as you cross twenty five and spend the next five years launching your career the concrete starts setting. And from my perspective, it sets harder for women than it does for men. Not only do they have the constant marination in our culture that tells women that they have to be tough, competitive, sassy and independent, they also have the constant chorus of their “successful” friends defining what their “successful” life should look like. That includes the definition of the “acceptable” men for relationships. All of this just sets the concrete, especially by the time they hit thirty. Now there is no wonder. There is no opportunity to just take the leap of faith with a partner and sort your way through life learning and growing together. It’s predetermined and predefined by the herd’s group consensus.

    What is really lost in this is how men pretty much don’t do anything like this. They hang with their buddies and, for the most part, couldn’t care less what they do for a living. They hang, drink beer, laugh, and just relax. They, for the most part, just adapt to whatever situation they find themselves in. If one of their buddies wants to date or marry someone who is different or who has walked an alternative path in life they pretty much wish them luck. Why? Because of all of the reasons listed in previous comments. Is she feminine? Is she down for sex? Is she affectionate and caring? Does she support a home environment that is relaxing? Is she helping pull the wagon in a positive direction? If so, then it’s high fives all around.

    So back to this setting concrete business. She may want to get married. She may even read these comments and make an attempt to internalize them. But the reality is that it will be very difficult for her to change who she is right now. Her friends will fight it. Her work persona requires toughness and independence and it’s harder for women to shut this off when they come home. Again why? Just think about when guys get into conflict. It either sorts our quickly or escalates to violence. Guys know this and deal with it. And afterward, most guys forget about it and get back to the business of hanging out, drinking beer, laughing, and relaxing with the very same guy they almost had it out with. But women, in the same scenario, nurse grudges and anger for days, week, months, and even years. They may smile around each other but bitch and complain behind each other’s backs. The same applies for work. Most men can shut if off. Most women? Not so much.

    So for her to truly change will require jack hammering her concrete ways into pieces and rebuilding. And based on the fact that at age thirty she is already in need of losing weight I wonder if she is capable of it. If you don’t have the fortitude to keep it together when you are young, how will that magically develop after age thirty and stay that way for some man? Because any successful, FIT, intelligent, funny, enlightened man (the herd defined target) in her age group will likely have an expectation and hope that his wife will keep REASONABLY fit for first, herself, and second, him and the sex life he hopes to continue. This, along with all the other comments as listed above regarding attitude and femininity.

    • This is epic. I will use it as a blog post over the weekend.

    • The fact that RedPillWifery, SunshineMary, CL, etc., who post on other Manosphere blogs (I remember seeing RedPillWifery on here recently) have swallowed the Red Pill seems encouraging. Is there a proportion of women who can/do change versus those who want to but don’t and those who don’t want to and don’t?

    • Infantry on said:

      I agree with the ‘setting concrete’ theory of personality evolution. I don’t necessarily think it would be harder for women except for the following points:

      1 – Women being more socially connected into a hivemind. Personal development on the scale required would be resisted by her friends. ‘Crabs in a bucket’ is appropriate here. She would possibly be shamed for ‘weakness’ and ‘letting the sisterhood down’. Ironically, independence is actually required to change yourself. Stories about of red pillers having to change their friends as they change their personalities. Girls have more social pressure and are more sensitive to it in a double whammy that will test their resolve.

      2 – Lack of resources/information freely available on: a) Why a girl should want to embrace her femininity and b) How do go about it.

    • This is beyond Epic. Brilliant post. Affirms my belief that women need to evolve to achieve the equality they want.

  13. Vicomte on said:

    I’ll reiterate that men don’t like women who have to learn to be feminine. Men like women that can’t help being feminine. I really think this is more innate than environmental, for both genders.

    Losing fat isn’t that difficult once one realizes they need to lose fat. This isn’t a large point of contention. The question is whether this woman in constitutionally capable of becoming what she needs to be.

    I vote nay. That isn’t meant to be denigrating.

    • Infantry on said:

      I’ll reiterate that men don’t like women who have to learn to be feminine. Men like women that can’t help being feminine.

      Reverse the genders and you’ve got standard female resistance to learning game. Of course girls would prefer ‘natural’ alphas, but a polished student of charisma is the next best thing.

      • Vicomte on said:

        I don’t believe it works the same for each sex.

        There may be a good amount of ‘wiggle room’, but one can only venture so far from their natural disposition. With men, the problem is often not a lack of masculinity so much as the behaviors it’s expressed with. What we’re dealing with here is a woman who is, for all intents and purposes, masculine.

        Learning to be passive and feminine is not like learning to be active and masculine. A masculine woman calculating enough to decide to change her behavior is coming at it from the wrong angle, and will never be able to achieve the same kind of result as a naturally feminine woman. The kind of motivation involved is not of the energy required.

        To put it simply, I don’t think a masculine woman can be made to enjoy being feminine.

        Our worst male betas enjoy being masculine, but channel that energy into the wrong behaviors.

        As stated numerous times ’round these parts, men and women are different. To say that the same path and technique to ‘game’ (whatever you like to call it, I still think Charisma is silly, apologies PM) will work for both sexes is faulty reasoning.

        Also, you can’t unfuck people.

        Which is an important point not relevant to men looking to change.

  14. A note to my readers and commenters. I am actively corresponding with the woman who wrote the original email. She’s kind of riled up. Here is what I just sent her:

    Wait before you comment. Let the intensity of your feelings subside. Then it becomes time for you to comment. I’ll let your comments go through as you’ve been respectful and responsive. I’ve seen this happen many times before. You’re in defensive mode right now. That’s perfectly natural. When you switch to thoughtful mode, you’ll be able to add a great deal to the discussion. Be aware that Manosphere readers and commenters take no quarter when it comes to logic and reason.

    You’re heading down a rabbit hole where men are completely and utterly honest. In all frankness, it’s a man’s space and some of it you will find quite ugly. You’ll also run up against some unique terms and words. But as a lawyer, you’re trained to look for truths and probably won’t get caught up in ad hominems and other logical fallacies.

    I’ll keep that blog post current for a couple of days. It will garner some additional snarky comments, that’s to be expected. I actually urge you to send the blog post’s link to your friends.They will be shocked, horrified, insulted, and enraged. Again, expected. But honestly, if someone doesn’t have these honest discussions, the state of relationships ‘twixt the sexes will only get worse. As an example, it was just released that the United States now has the lowest birthrate in history and that 41% of children are born to single mothers. Combine this with the divorce rate and it’s easy to see that our society is very, very damaged. Our families are very, very damaged. Some in the Manosphere seek to address the problems positively, others are taking a nihilist approach and merely acting hedonistically to get their needs met. I’m kind of in the middle.

    • Vicomte on said:

      PM, you’re depriving your readers of valuable data with which to tailor our counsel.

      For shame!

      • She is being prudently discreet with me regarding any more personal information. When she does comment, and I am sure she will, it will spark a lively discussion. I’m keeping this page up for a couple of days so word can spread some more. Tell your friends!

    • AnonWriter on said:

      Nobody likes being told that they can’t change for the better. When this happens, it generally goes one of two ways: a) They take it as a challenge and work on themselves; or b) They use denial and rationalization to convince themselves that they don’t need to change – that the ‘better’ is not actually better.

      Your lawyer lady has connected her so-called ‘independence’ with her self-worth. She has no concept of healthy dependency as it was drilled out of her as she grew up. Unfortunately, independence for many women goes hand in hand with sassiness, snarkiness, and a whole bunch of other undesirable traits. It doesn’t have to be that way, but when it’s connected to your self-worth, it’s hard to change.

      She is proud of making it in what she sees as a ‘man’s world’. She has probably internalized the process of acting like a man, which she used to her advantage in getting ahead in her career. She needs to be able to balance this with real femininity and grace in her personal life. It’ll be tough for her.

      She probably doesn’t want to admit to herself that men place a high priority on physical appearance. She might think that the perfect man would see her and love her for who she is, regardless of her appearance. Wrong. This sucks for many women, just as not being alpha sucks for most men. That’s life, though, and you will be better off if you accept and work with reality than if you deny it.

      I expect that, like too many other women, she feels like she is a prize. However, other than praise for mowing the lawn, she never explains what she really has to offer to a man. She is very self-centered suggesting that her asking for advice and then following it is the greatest compliment she can give a man. Wow.

      It’s great to have a high opinion of yourself, but self-assuredness and self-confidence are traits that women find highly attractive in men, so I think she is projecting here. What she proposes to offer a man is simply not enough: a little praise, but only as a proxy for monetary payment; some deference to leadership, but only when she asks for it; and a confident and independent ally. Men can get these things from their male friends.

      You’ve told her what good men are looking for, and she is fighting it. It’s not too unlike what happens to men when they take the red pill. It’ll be interesting to see where this leads. It is probably easier for her to pump herself up and tell herself not to ‘settle’, than to realize that she could benefit from the discomfort of accepting reality and doing the hard work to undo some of her harmful social programming.

      • She has to reconcile this:
        “She might think that the perfect man would see her and love her for who she is, regardless of her appearance.”
        WIth this:
        “However, other than praise for mowing the lawn, she never explains what she really has to offer to a man.

        Why should a man love her for who she is, when who she isn’t something that he benefits from loving.

        She wants to be loved for her “self-assuredness and self-confidence”, but doesn’t realize that a man has buddies who are self-assured and self-confident and he doesn’t love them.

  15. LostSailor on said:

    Like the feminists before me, I do not need a man to save me from my life.

    Actually, it sounds like you do.

    And that’s the crux of the issue. Years of feminism has taught women that they can do anything a man can do, so you don’t need a man. But the issue isn’t about doing what men do, it’s about being a woman.

    The OP looks at her life–good career, good income, “ruthlessly” independent, competitive–and sees the fulfillment of the feminist dream. Yet she instinctively knows that something is missing. Like the smell of baking holiday cookies in a warm, loving home.

    But the barrier to her filling those missing needs is the keystone in the arch of feminism: Women don’t need men.

    To fill this hole in her life, yes, the OP does need a man. But until she can get her head around that concept and take it to heart, she will likely fail.

    At 30, her best target pool are men between 34 and 37. The problem is most of the best are already married or are out of her league. Time is not on her side.

    It’s like a Red Pill for women: When you can accept that you do need a man to fix your life, you’ll have taken the first, vital step on the journey from feminist to feminine. But, just as for men, that Red Pill can be a bitter one to swallow…

  16. I would not get near this woman with a 10ft pole. She has Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem written all over her rant. She might as well come out say ” A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle”( fortunately a few but growing number of men are coming to the realization that they only need the bike and not the fish. I guess it took 50yrs to realize this fact). Furthermore she is a lawyer, which means that she has been indocrinated well with all the feminism in law school and I pity the poor fellow who gets involved with her because when she gets bored of the marriage she will clean him out and destroy him. I also see this schizophrenic side to her where she wants to be this ball busting dragon lady in court on the one hand and then be this demure feminine woman on the other hand. I have heard anecdotally that there are women who play those two roles well. At 30 maybe she has hit the wall or hit it soon and by the time she has decided to pay attention to her more feminine ways and make corrections, it may be too late for her to have kids, that is if she wants any in her life. Either she adopts or have plenty of cats at home…

    • What these women fail to realize is that past the age of 30, the SMP is a very cruel place and that they are a depreciating asset. No matter how many ivy league credentials they have or the amount of money they make or even with all the plastic surgeries they can afford, they have to compete with younger, tighter, better looking,fertile and low mileage women coming online. Case and point: Demi Moore/Ashton Kutcher where Kutcher ended up banging younger tighter ones even though his fame and wealth is a major factor, he still gave up the old model for the newer model(s).

  17. The letter could have been written by my sister-in-law before she married my brother. My SIL, now 45 years of age, is a competitive, ball busting lawyer. The only thing feminine about her personality is that he likes to cook who dresses in a girly-girl manner. Outside of that, she has a very masculine personality: my mom said she was a “type A”.

    My brother is the “confident and competent man” as she described: ivy-league educated, and had (until recently) a 6-figure super sexy high status job. My brother is not an alpha but would have a very strong appeal to a woman who loves status and needs a high status man to respect.

    My SIL had two kids from a prior marriage and was still in law school when my bro married her.

    So how did this ball busting divorced mother of two attract my uber high status brother?

    She was (and still is) a 9.

    If the writer does not want to change her personality and marry a guy who is better than her, than she has to become a physical knockout. She is going to have to look better at 30 than most women do at 20.

    A very quick way to lose weight is to get on a vegan diet (I lost 30 lbs in 5 months). Also some weight training would be good. Hot toned curves will make most intelligent, successful (young) men interpret competitive bitchiness from a woman as interesting and somewhat charming.

    Hopefully she knows by now that most man dont give a damn about her degrees and position. More important is if he can have an interesting and pleasent conversation with her.

    Other than that, she will either have to find her sweeter side or just forget about it.

    • van Rooinek on said:

      A very quick way to lose weight is to get on a vegan diet (I lost 30 lbs in 5 months).

      Good for you, but a vegan diet is necessarily a high carb diet, and that’s a CATASTROPHE for 30-40% of the population. Many people GAIN weight on such a diet. It s most assuredly not for everyone.

      Also veganism is an exceptionally bad idea if you ever plan on having children:

      • Yes, a vegan diet is not for everyone, and especially not for young children, IMO.

        I think in general what most adults can use if a diet that fills you up but does not have too many calories, or at least fewer calories before the diet is started. For me, fiber tends to fill me up and green leafy vegetables have fiber but without the calories.

        I supplement the diet with egg whites and salmon occasionally, so its not a strict vegan diet.

        My body fat (by DEXA) went down from 30.5 % to 21.3% in 6 months, so it worked well. Now Im going for a 15% body fat in an attempt to get a more ripped look.

        It might be good for our young 30ish ingenue to try this. And if she likes it it may be sustainable. It would kind of suck if she lost all that weight only to get it back when she got married. Not so much for her, but her husband.

    • I’d suggest she do something like Paleo or Slow-Carb Diets. Those tend to be much better since they give more lean protiens and necessary fats and they completely cut carbs.

      I could eat Vegan and be fat as hell on spaghetti and french fries.

  18. wingman on said:

    I can’t help but come back to the ‘American bitch’ persona versus the still sexy but successful women of many foreign countries. Having lived in Europe and traveled all over, the concept of the lack of femininity seems, I think to be a fairly American problem. Somehow, successful European women especially, never lose that feminine twinkle. It seems they don’t feel they have to become men in order to progress. I believe there were a number of very specific American feminist role models some years back, who unfortunately set the tone. These same role models just didn’t make it across the ocean.

  19. It’s impossible for her to not know what her issue is, since she reads this site enough to email you, and your most recurring theme is that the masculine attracts the feminine, and that the feminine attracts the masculine.

    So what it comes down to is an inability to accept the latter portion of that statement. Quite simply, men want what men want, not what feminists tell us to want. At the end of the day, men want someone feminine, attractive, and supportive, and those are the traits she needs to cultivate and present more strongly.

    She also needs to accept that she’s already sacrificed some of her femininity through careerism and perhaps other past choices of hers, and adjust her expectations accordingly regarding the type of man she can actually keep.

  20. She gotta lose the weight else she has absolutely no chance. The cookies can wait – they will make her fatter. I dated a woman like her recently – strong-independent-lawyer blah blah – except that my date is in terrific shape, slim and athletic. She’s a bit older though (mid-30s) but I thought she was a lot younger. After a few dates, the same I’m-independent-hear-me-roar attitude shone through, along with many anecdotes from her life story that just reek of feminist indoctrination. I couldn’t bail fast enough. The combative attitude is funny coming from my male friends, not so charming from a woman. She’s still struggling to get a decent bloke to stick around (she’s on my Facebook – it’s quite amusing to see the status updates), and she is hot with a great body. If she were fat, I’d imagine that no guy like me would even look at her, and she’d only attract bogans and the likes.

    Me: I’m 30, white collar profession, make 6-figures, in top physical shape, can and have dated much younger.

  21. “…the men we are most attracted to: a competent and confident male. Basically, someone we respect enough to let lead.”

    If a man is competent and confident he’s going to lead whether or not a woman lets him.

  22. The 30something single professional woman on said:

    It is really hard not to take some of your comments very personally. I recognize, however, that your knowledge of me is based on a single email. And no, I don’t frequent this site. Yesterday, prior to my email, is the first time I have ever read the word “manosphere,” much less read anything on here, or a related site. I also don’t know what many of your acronyms stand for — you’re gonna have to dumb it down for me. This has, nevertheless, been a learning experience.

    1. I clearly need to find better pictures of myself for online profile purposes. Thanks for the fat comment, PM. For those of you who are curious, I am within 15 lbs of my ideal weight. I’ll give you that I should drop 10-15. That would take me from the 6/8/10 size I am to the 2/4/6 range. If you think that is unattractively fat, I hope I never cross paths with you in real life, and I am glad I live in a fat state.

    2. I need to be better at “selling” myself on my profile, if I continue in online dating. The thought of selling anything–from girl scout cookies to my personality– kind of makes me want to throw up. That I would need to indicate, in detail, on my profile that I am kind, caring, affectionate, thoughtful, trustworthy, happy, sweet, not a harpie, etc. would never occur to me. Those seem like givens and things that are demonstrated by actions. Using the words seems absolutely meaningless. In fact, part of me thinks that pointing out those particular characteristics seems to imply that the writer does not recognize that they are absolute baselines for any relationship. Although I have only be doing it for a month, online dating kind of sucks, and I think I’d much rather meet someone in the produce aisle at the grocery store. I’ve made a mental note to make more of an effort re: wardrobe choice when out on errands. And also to look cuter at the gym. Maybe show off the girls a bit more.

    3. We have a communication problem. I have gleaned your definition of several of the words used in my email. I’ll share with you my thoughts:

    “Independent” – That’s right, my life isn’t a train wreck. I do not need a man to make me happy or content. Without one, I’ll live. Some of you believe that we should need a man. I say: the women I have met who “need a man” for happiness and contentment in life are what you call Clusters, of various categories. If you are involved with one such woman, you should run away. You will never make her happy or content, because she is incapable of being happy and content. If I don’t need a man, why write the email in the first place? Why bother dating? Go live in the woods alone.

    I don’t need a man; I want one. And if you know very many women, you know that our wants rank way higher on our priority list than our needs. I need food and shelter. I will always have those things, so I take them for granted. You do not want to be associated with my needs — either as a paycheck or a sperm donor because I will take you for granted and treat you like crap. I will always be able to get another one. You want me to want you; you want to be a luxury good, not a need. Why?

    Becuase if I want you, it means that I like you, and I genuinely want you to be happy and content. I will do those things that will make you happy and content. I have an innate desire to please. And when you are happy and content with me, it makes me happier and more content. It’s a vicious cycle.

    Independent = quarrelsome bitch who never knows her place. Not true. See luxury good discussion above. I do know where I belong, and what I am willing to do in the right relationship. So, no, I will not bow to every man that walks through my life. He has to deserve my submission, not just have a penis. It is a big sacrifice, for you, on my part.

    “Lady Lawyer” Yeah, I get to use my brain at work, and I like it. I affect hundreds of people’s lives everyday. Most of the time for the better. I get to help dispense justice. I won’t apologize for that. No, I am not a ball-buster, nor are any of the other female attorneys that I know. We are smart though, and you cannot manipulate us as easily. Sadly, some of them feel like they need to hide their occupation from potential suitors. If you have dismissed out of hand a lady lawyer, you are missing out on some pretty awesome women.

    “Competitive” – yes, I am. That doesn’t mean I want to dominate you, or have an endless struggle for power. It means that I react well to someone else pushing me to be a better person. I want to be a better person; sometimes outside influences help. I don’t want to do things half-assed. I want to do them well. I don’t understand what is wrong with that.

    “Competent and Confident Male” – many of you have interpreted that to mean someone equal to me in education or earning power. I really just mean competent and confident. That isn’t code for anything. I don’t care what you do or how educated you are, as long as you have some goal and you have taken definitive steps towards meeting it. Setting goals and achieving them demonstrates logic, follow-through and basic judgment–i.e. life and survival skills. I find those traits very attractive, and so do my female friends. Lots of the males I have run across, do not have survival skills. They have lead privliged and sheltered lives.

    I had more to say when I started writing this, but I’ve now forgotten. Some follow up comments — I was appalled at the mention of women trying to “game” men by faking certain attributes. At the end of the day, I (and the others I know) am looking to be happy and content. That is not achieved through deception. That some women don’t know how to be feminine. I kind of don’t. The circumstances of my life required that I focus more on surviving than having fun and flirtatious teens and twenties. Many of the single professional women I know had equally difficult childhoods. Maybe we are broken.

    At any rate, I am now on this carousel(?) and I am not looking to cheat anyone. I’m looking to find my person and get the hell off. I came here for some advice, and I learned a lot, although not exactly what I was expecting. Many of you have implied that I am running out of time. Despite what PM has said about my pictures, I think I’m still ok. I had a somewhat junior and very attractive U.S. Marshal ask me what grade I was in a couple of weeks ago. That extra 15 is really helping keep those crowsfeet away.

    What I need help with is figuring out how to: (1) subltely let men know (apparently without telling them I am a lawyer) that I am out of highschool; and (2) extending those brief flirtatious encounters into more. I certainly don’t know what the hell I am doing.

    Anyway, thanks for the comments. Please forgive typos, misspellings and grammar issues. I get lazy when I am not at work.

    • *Sigh*
      This lawyer hamster needs to be nuked from orbit. Its the only way to be sure. I don’t feel like taking the effort to break down every ridiculous idea you’ve regurgitated from your Womyn’s Studies courses and translated into what you think of how a relationship should work. You need go back to evolutionary biology 101.

      The main problem with you is that you still view yourself as the prize and a man as an accessory. The thing is, men compete for prizes they find valuable. So ask yourself, who is competing for you?
      You also don’t realize that commitment from a man is EARNED by a woman. Frankly, you don’t even realize that you have to earn a valuable man by keeping him happy. Men don’t care about being “Wanted” in a relationship, women do (stop projecting your wants on to men). They care about being respected.

    • AnonWriter on said:

      You say you’re competitive, but you are trying to compete in an area where you are at a disadvantage. Confident and competent men know what they want too, and they have a lot of options. You have plenty of strengths, a lot of good things going for you. However, while some of them might be helpful in your work, many of them really don’t do anything for a man. You don’t need to hide them, but don’t expect them to be attractive.

      In order to be competitive in this marketplace, you will need to work on some of your weaknesses that keep you from being an attractive woman (physically and otherwise). Strengthening these weaknesses will not help you much in your career, and I suspect that’s why they are weaknesses to begin with.

      Round yourself out, become a woman. Good looks, a pleasant personality, and femininity are very important. Independence and self-worth, as you describe them, are not contrary to being a sweet, beautiful woman… but independence that leads to sassiness and aloofness is ugly. Hopefully you love sex. If not, get to a therapist or lower your sights considerably.

      You will have to learn how to separate your work life from your personal life. In your work life, you are a lawyer. In your personal life, you are a woman. You don’t have to be a different person in each of these lives, you just have to emphasize and de-emphasize certain aspects of who you are.

    • LostSailor on said:

      I don’t need a man; I want one. And if you know very many women, you know that our wants rank way higher on our priority list than our needs. I…take [my needs] for granted. You do not want to be associated with my needs — either as a paycheck or a sperm donor because I will take you for granted and treat you like crap.

      Which brings us to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the Anomaly revealed as both beginning and end.

      As I said in my earlier comment, this is the biggest barrier you face in finding what you seek. But Rome didn’t fall in a day.

      You assume your needs will always be met, when this really isn’t the case. If you take your needs for granted, you will also take the needs of the man in your life for granted and no man will stick around for that. I’m going to disagree with ar10308: men do want to be “wanted” even needed in a relationship precisely because it is a sign of respect (he is however correct that men care about and value highly respect).

      Needing a man is not about being “needy.” It’s about recognizing that a fundamental component to living a full life is the kind of emotional support and attachment that you cannot get from your work or your girlfriends or even your family. Sure, you can get by just fine without anyone, and with this attitude, you may have to.

      Just “wanting” a man is a core part of the problem. You “want” a new pair of shoes. You “want” the latest iPhone. You “want” a new dress. You say your attitude toward men is that of a “luxury good.” The common denominator with all those things is that your “wants” are disposable. By just “wanting” a man you send definite signals that a man in your life is just another disposable commodity. This is the fundamental feminist flaw when it comes to relationships. Men have gotten wise to it.

      If you don’t believe me, believe the collected experience of thousands of men in the Manosphere. We’ve see it all before and recognize this attitude a mile away. When your attitude toward dating signals that men are disposable, men will return the favor.

      I do understand your anger and why you take these comments personally. You’re still under the “special snowflake” syndrome. It’s hard to realize that the message you’ve been marinating in for most of your life is a lie. You’re not a special snowflake, you’re not unique when it comes to men and relationships, and you don’t “deserve” a high-value, confident man because no one does. It’s not about deserving that man, it’s about earning that man.

      As for your comments on independence and being a lady lawyer, you have to understand that men don’t care about any of that. Many dismiss many lady lawyers out of hand not because they are “awesome women” but because experience has shown them to indeed be competitive, ball-busting bitches. So we’ll go with the odds and avoid you.

      An online dating profile is merely a resume. But you don’t know how to sell yourself in this job market. Men do not care about your degrees, job, income, status, or accomplishments. They’re nice and all, but they are not inherently attractive. You need to sell that you’re sweet, nurturing, caring, and affectionate because that’s what men care about and what experience has taught them is usually lacking in the women they date. You think it’s a “baseline” but it’s not. The other side of the coin is that you actually have to be those things.

      You are indeed running out of time. As each year passes, your available pool of competent, confident men gets older and smaller, and your competition gets younger, no matter whether you “think” you’re still okay.

      You came here looking for advice and you got it. But you took it personally and want to argue with it and deny its truth. We get that. The first reaction to the Red Pill is anger and denial. It takes a while to sink in.

      Good luck.

    • Cail Corishev on said:

      You’re getting a lot of things right here, so I’ll just pick out a few things to disagree with or comment on:

      “I am within 15 lbs of my ideal weight. I’ll give you that I should drop 10-15. That would take me from the 6/8/10 size I am to the 2/4/6 range. If you think that is unattractively fat,”

      It’s not that you can’t be attractive at 15 pounds overweight. But that 15 pounds (which is probably more; we almost always underestimate our own extra weight) can make the difference between you catching a guy’s eye, or not. Waist-hip ratio is a huge part of the first split-second impression a guy gets of you, which has a lot to do with whether he approaches and what he’s willing to put up with to get close to you. Maybe that’s unfair, maybe it’s shallow, but it’s the truth.

      “Independent” – That’s right, my life isn’t a train wreck.

      If you want to communicate with people, it’s important to use words in the way they understand them. It doesn’t matter what you mean by “independent” or any other word you use to describe yourself in your profile; it matters what men read into it. We’re telling you that they read “independent” and think, “She expects to make the rules.” If that’s not what you mean, don’t use that word. They definitely do not think, “Great, she’s got her shit together, so she doesn’t need a daddy.”

      “I do not need a man to make me happy or content. Without one, I’ll live.”

      Read that again until you see the problem with it. “I’ll live” if I’m locked in prison and buggered every day, but I won’t be happy and content. You do need a man to be as happy and content as you’re capable of being, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Admitting that will be a big step.

      A man wants to be wanted, but he wants to be needed too. There’s nothing wrong with needing someone, but women have been told there is. Men need women for sex, procreation, comfort, and many other things. It’s okay for women to admit they need men for things — and even for a woman to be proud of her man that he can meet her needs. One of the proudest moments for a man is when he can provide his wife and kids with something they need, that they couldn’t provide for themselves. We need women to need us, in a very real way.

      “If you have dismissed out of hand a lady lawyer, you are missing out on some pretty awesome women.”

      It’s not that a lady lawyer can’t be awesome. It’s that your education and career don’t add one tiny bit to your attractiveness. I’ll repeat that, because it’s probably hard for you to believe: not one iota. Show me identical twins, both 25 years old, same body, same face, same laugh, same IQ. One went to law school, graduated summa, has her own apartment in the big city, and is on the fast track to partner with her firm. The other stayed home after high school, took some cooking and nursing courses at the local community college, does tutoring and child care through her church to make some spending money. Which one is more attractive? The first girl gains nothing from her education and career. Believe it or not, her bank account is meaningless (or a negative) for most men too. Intelligence is a positive in itself, but that’s separate from what you’re doing with it. The second girl has been learning useful “wifery” skills, and is less likely to have been immersed as deeply in feminist thinking. I’ll take the second one every time.

      So you don’t have to hide your occupation or be ashamed of it, but don’t expect it to be a draw. You’ll have to attract men with something else.

      I was appalled at the mention of women trying to “game” men by faking certain attributes. At the end of the day, I (and the others I know) am looking to be happy and content. That is not achieved through deception.

      Don’t get distracted by that red herring. Some anti-Game people want to label it all as deception, and say the only acceptable methods of interaction are those based on total honesty. I’m convinced they just want everyone else to be unhappy. Makeup is deceptive. Dressing nicer than you normally do, or cleaning your house or car extra well for the first date is deceptive. Putting your best foot forward in any way is deceptive, since it means you’re not showing off your worst foot. So what?

      It’s one thing to lie and tell a man you don’t have kids when you do, or claim to be Christian when you’re not. (A favorite in dating profiles is when women answer the smoking question with “socially” or “once in a while.” In my experience those mean, “like a chimney.”) Looking your best or being on your best behavior doesn’t fall into the same category. All the suggestions here have been about improving your attractiveness and presenting yourself as well as possible, not about being dishonest.

      “He has to deserve my submission, not just have a penis. It is a big sacrifice, for you, on my part.”

      Very true, and if you can talk about submission without totally freaking out, you’re way ahead of most women.

      You asked for specific help on two things at the end, but I don’t know if I understand the first one. Men already know you’re out of high school, and if you meant you want them to know you’re a grownup, I bet they already know that too. If anything, you want them to see you as younger and more “girly”, not less.

      On how to flirt and keep the interaction going, I’m not sure how to explain that. Try to be objective and ask yourself whether you’re dominating the interaction too much. A lot of guys don’t know how to lead — we’re just as screwed up as women — so it’s not like if you’re feminine and submissive every guy will know what to do with that. But you have to give him a chance to. Playing with your hair is an indicator of interest, and you should let it grow long. Dress feminine, skirts and dresses, not pants and suits. Direct eye contact is important, and touching is big. A slight touch to his arm when he says something funny, or a punch on the shoulder when he teases you, will definitely get his attention, whether he realizes it or not.

    • Tyler Durden on said:

      This makes me so angry I am having a hard time gathering my thoughts.

      First, some background. I am a lawyer, too. Or, I was. Unless you went to a top 5 school, I went to a better law school than you did, 30SPW, probably made more money, had higher LSATs and so on. My lawyer cred is almost certainly a lot stronger than yours. And I quit the profession — literally walked away from it — because I was so embarrassed by what I did for a living. A three hour deposition is like a couple of people with autism arguing, with someone writing it all down.

      Practicing law is almost always an idiotic thing to devote one’s life to, unless you’re a real, serious legal scholar or thinker, or one of the 10% of practicing attorneys who truly love the law as an intellectual discipline. I’ve know about five of those in my life. Everyone else is in it because it pays well, and confers a certain kind of status, among people who don’t know better.

      To say with a straight face that you “dispense justice” is a stupid joke. It’s also kind of offensive. You’re not Nelson Mandela. You rearrange money and assets that other people have generated. If you work for the government (which I suspect you do) you’re paid by taxpayer money, and you are able to do what you do because the full military/police power of the US government is behind you. You don’t personally impress or intimidate anyone — they’re intimidated by the threat of real, armed, probably male FBI agents or marshals showing up if you tell them to. You don’t make anything, invent anything, add anything to the general welfare. You punish people who break the rules. Congratulations. It’s also a great gig because you basically work 9 to 5, you’re not going to get laid off unless you do something really stupid, and most important of all, you don’t have to bring in business.”Selling” — i.e., trying to influence people to do what you want without the threat of force — you don’t want to do that.

      Your “intelligence” is actually a very specific, basically useless ability to play a complicated game. It’s like being able to do crossword puzzles, or play Scrabble. And you have completely bought into the idea that being able to put “Esquire” after your name really does make you some kind of superior being.

      And you identify with that. You write a LOT about being a lawyer, being intelligent, independent, everything. You know what? I have an incredibly interesting, statusy job. I own the company. And unless I’m forced to, I never, ever tell people what I do for a living. Unless they’re in my field, they won’t understand it, and I feel like an asshole talking about the impressive work that I do. So I don’t.

      I was talking with my girlfriend recently about sex. She absolutely loves sex, and is delighted to do it basically anytime I want. She thinks testosterone and semen are two of the greatest substances in the universe, and wants as much of both as I can provide. I made the point that sometimes men can be kind of gross — we sweat, we don’t shave, we fart and come, etc. and she looked at me like I was nuts and said “Look. I’m fucking a man, not a Care Bear.”

      Take that to heart. As a man, I don’t give a shit what you do for a living. I don’t care how independent, strong, allegedly smart you are. I want a woman, not a resume. I absolutely don’t care if you’re a waitress or Ruth Bader Ginsberg. I want you to need me. I want you to revel in the fact that I’m bigger, stronger and more aggressive than you are when necessary.

      And for fuck’s sake, jettison all the limitation, conditions, requirements, rules and conditions. You have a head full of theories and principles that have absolutely nothing with how real relationships actually work, or the real human beings who are in them. Submission is a “sacrifice”? I have to demonstrate logic, goal-achieving and the ability to demonstrate adequate life skills? If I write off lady lawyers (which I have) I am missing out on some pretty awesome women? Bullshit. It sounds like you’re negotiating a settlement instead of thinking about falling in love with a man and building a life together.

      I don’t quite know how to end this. I give you a lot of credit for actually posting your email and taking the inevitable shitstorm (including this message) that ensued. That puts you way ahead of the game. My advice, I guess (I’ve calmed down somewhat) would be:

      Realize that we don’t have to win you — you have to win us. Starting at about your age, women are a dime a dozen for reasonably attractive, reasonably smart, reasonably together men. You’re nothing special. Men learn that early. You should learn it now.

      Allow yourself to give a shit about this issue. Finding a good man is the single most important thing you can do with your life. It will contribute way, way more to your happiness, wealth, security, peace of mind and success (however you define it) than any other thing you can do. Your whole post reeks of “this isn’t a big deal”. Yes, it is. It’s a colossal deal. If you don’t get that, and allow yourself to really, openly care, a lot, you’re screwed right from the start. Try. Hard.

      Stop identifying your worth with your career.

      Get good at cooking,and at sex. Men are fairly simple creatures, in that way, and the fact that my morning began with some mind-bending sex, followed by breakfast, matters a lot.

      Test your theories against how things work in the real world. “I will always be able to get another one?” No, you won’t.

      Watch “American Beauty” and “Legends of the Fall.”

      That’s it. Good luck, I guess.

      • Richard Cranium on said:

        :stands up and applauds: Bravo TD I can’t add anything to this. Pure gold
        To the lady that this post is about, follow these simple steps.
        1. Print TD’s post.
        2. Read it daily until it sinks in.
        3. If any of your old thoughts and feeling start creeping back, repeat step 2 as often as necessary.

      • I very nearly went to law school, primarily because I did (and do) love law as an intellectual discipline. But I also did my research and talked to quite a number of lawyers and realized that it’s pretty much all about the billable hours. Sorry. Not for me. Very happy I avoided it.

        I do know some good lawyers, mostly male and one female, but I also know some that are a complete waste of carbon and water….

    • 30something:

      Good to see you responded.

      First — and I mean this in the kindest possible way — CALM DOWN. Your email reads like you were getting more and more wound up with every word you typed. Take a deep breath. Count to 10. Turn around. AND CALM DOWN. Frankly, you’re coming across like the raging ballbuster bitch you say you aren’t. STOP THAT.

      1. Good to hear you’re in 15 lbs of your ideal weight. I don’t think that’s fat. Others might have different opinions. The problem, 30 something, is the euphemisms women use. Many women in online profiles (I hear) call themselves “curvy” when what they actually are is about 75 pounds overweight. That’s not “curvy” or “generously proportioned”. That’s FAT. No other word for it.

      2. ” kind, caring, affectionate, thoughtful, trustworthy, happy, sweet, not a harpie, etc.” You don’t understand just how rare those characteristics are in today’s American women. The fact that you don’t recognize this shows the extent of the damage to this sexual marketplace. It isn’t so much that you need to SAY those things about yourself. You need to actually BE those things.

      And I know we are talking about online dating, but you are “selling” yourself. All the time. In court, on the phone, in the office, at church, and on a date.

      And another thing: DO NOT refer to your breasts as “the girls”. Women who refer to their body parts by trendy slang terms such as “hoo-ha”, “vajayjay” or “the girls” are sassy, brassy types. High status men with Charisma do not LTR or marry such women. They pump and dump such women, because they are sure to become an annoyance and a hassle sooner or later.

      Here’s where your thinking is off, WAY off:

      “I don’t need a man; I want one. And if you know very many women, you know that our wants rank way higher on our priority list than our needs. I need food and shelter. I will always have those things, so I take them for granted. You do not want to be associated with my needs — either as a paycheck or a sperm donor because I will take you for granted and treat you like crap. I will always be able to get another one. You want me to want you; you want to be a luxury good, not a need. Why?”

      You say you WANT a man. What the hell for? Sounds to me like your life is all together. Basically, you’re saying you want a man to fit into your life; you don’t want to be part of his life. Cupcake, you think you will “always” be able to get another man? Ummm, no, no you won’t.

      3. Independent and competitive: You might very well be these things. But you need to understand that these are turnoffs to men. Men have been conditioned for decades that when a woman is saying she is “independent”, she is saying “I don’t need anything from you, I don’t want anything from you, I can do it myself, and you’re just a hindrance. I will not submit to any man, ever, not even a husband, not even if he is right. I make the rules, not him.”

      Men have also been conditioned that when a woman says she is “competitive”, she is really saying “I can beat you men at your own game. I can beat a husband at his own game. Anything a man can do, I can do better. I will do whatever I can to humiliate men. I will not submit to a man, ever. I will not follow his lead. Life with me will be a perpetual power struggle. My will be done, not his, and not ours, but MINE.”

      • Sorry, 30something, but when you say you’re “independent” and “competitive”, a man reads that as “I’m a bitch, I’m proud of it, and you’re just going to have to deal with it.”

    • Looking Glass on said:

      Since you’ve been willing to show up (and not be a troll), I’ll take a different approach. I’d normally be much harsher on someone if they’re doing a drive-by in a comments thread. But you’re here to get actual information. Be prepared.

      First, a quick glossary:

      “Hamster” – Female Rationalization Hamster. It’s the trait, almost wholly female, where by the woman will rationalize any action taken as being “good” for her. Any. Action. More severe cases can be literally seen as they’re happening. Thus where the term came from. You can literally see the hamster wheel turning in a woman’s head, at times.

      “The Carousel” – Short for “Riding the Cock Carousel”. This is the term applied to the lifestyle of chasing after “Alpha” men for short term attention. Generally means sleeping with them, but quite a few women ride the Carousel without really getting that much sex (they aim too high).

      SMV – Sexual Market Value. How attractive you are to the opposite sex. For women, it peaks between age 24 & 25. For Men, it peaks between age 34 and 38. (Runs a 1 to 10 scale)

      MMV – Marriage Market Value. Distinct from SMV, this is the fitness for long term relationships (LTRs). Does not correlate directly with SMV. A MMV 10 is going to peak at a 8 for Male SMV and probably a 7 for Female SMV. (It’s the interaction of “Ability to Commit” and “Attraction to the other sex”)

      Strong, Independent Woman – SIW. There’s a few variations on the make up of the term. (See EAPs – Entitled American Princess – for the worst types) Women that claim to masculine effect and social frame, yet truly neither understand that frame nor are capable of actually being emotionally independent. (Point: If you are Strong and Confident, you “are”; you don’t need to tell someone. To men, it’s the tell-tale sign of a poser).

      Hypergamy – Marrying Up (technically). In the days before sex outside of marriage wouldn’t land you in a big heap of problems (or carried high risk), the term meant the process by which women attempted to get the best guy within their “quality” range. They want someone of better quality than they are. You even mention the “respect” and “lead” points that go along with this. You wouldn’t follow someone below you, right? This is the term for that effect. Now it means more “sexing up” than “marrying up”, but it still applies.

      The Wall – The point at which Female’s looks fade while “desire to procreate” increases dramatically. (Latter being called “Baby Rabies”) Most women hit it around age 30, which is mostly due to an expression change in collagen production. Due to genetics, some women just don’t hit it until their 40s, but those are exceptions.
      IMPORTANT SUB-POINT: Female fertility starts to crater at age 32, and any pregnancy after age 35 is considered “geriatric” and makes up a very small portion of births. Few women are capable of having a first child past age 35. “The Wall” is very real.

      Those are probably the most useful to know. There’s others, but I’ll point them out as I go if I need to. I’ll deal with some points about the Lawyer topic, then discuss your “vision” issue that you’re having (it ties into the Lawyer issue), and, finally, a few suggestions on how to start at the end.

      As a general point, if you’re not yourself a Lawyer, female Lawyers are to be avoided. So, yes, it does “scare” men away. A lot of guys won’t even Pump & Dump (one night stand or a very short few times you have sex, as the whole of the relationship) female Lawyers. It’s all risk and little reward. Why? A lot of reasons, but here’s a few big ones.

      Firstly, women are very, very sensitive to power dynamics. The law, when abused, can do damage to a guy in a way pretty much nothing else can. Where else can a few tears and a phone call put a dozen guns to a guys head? Especially when the Law will automatically assume he’s guilty. A large portion of women abuse the law to this end, so someone that *knows* the system is, at first brush, a massive Red Flag. (Look up abuse of Domestic Violence laws and their utilization in Family Court. Very shortly, the application of the law is unconstitutionally sexist, but no one has been willing to open Pandora’s Box on the subject yet.)

      So, once you are tagged as a Lawyer, you are a major risk profile. Then we get into the personality aspect that comes with being a Lawyer. Your job is to be a hard charging, dominant advocate for someone(s) else. Your work is to “fight” for someone. Which means that is a huge chunk of your personality. This means you are likely to be: aggressive, abrasive, argumentative, career-focused, competitive and demanding. You might not be, but have you ever met Lawyers? Most of them fall into most of those categories.

      Also, your job, at least in Court, is acting like an aggressive Male. It’s some of the Male traits most other guys don’t like to deal with, as outside of the Court setting, the Male would be picking a fight. So, being a Female Lawyer isn’t an un-feminine career, it is, in fact, an anti-feminine career. (This can be worked around, but that’s what “regression to the mean” in the field means for a woman)

      Thus, you are a high (legal) risk, act like a Man much of the day and, in the course of your job, have been suppressing much of your natural feminine charm. Which would disqualify you pretty quickly as guys don’t really want to deal with that. But that’s not even the biggest issue!

      This is the hardest to explain because it’s going to make no sense to you until it finally clicks. This is about like describing Algebra to a 4th grader. You aren’t stupid or incapable, but your assumption set doesn’t let you see what I’m about to tell you. So, I’ll explain it this way.

      From research of the College Hook-up culture, roughly 20% of men get sex from 60% of the women. 1/5th of the Men monopolize the sex of 3/5ths of the women. That means roughly 80% of men are picking up scraps. (By volume, it’s actually 10% of the men cover about 45% of the women) This is unconstrained Hypergamy. Women are all fighting for the “Relative Location, Top Men”. Further, due to the Apex Fallacy (those at the Top represent all of the population), those 10% of College Men are claimed to represent the entire population. So, our society says that college guys are getting laid like wood flooring in college, when that’s anything from the truth. A few guys are getting a ton of action, and the rest are working on degrees to hopefully get a job so they can get some action.

      Now, this is the problem you have: That top 10% of men in college? You’re a Lawyer, so the “low men on the Totem Pole” you interact with as roughly equal colleagues are in the top 3% of men. Your standards, no matter what you say, are *insane* because you compare it all (at the subconscious level) to your social interactions. A “Male Lawyer” is a standard that is just “normal” to you. To most of the rest of the female population, a Lawyer is a great catch any day of the week. You’ve probably interacted with 20 of them, at work, this week. So, your brain is sorting men in comparison to your normal interactions, which is all Top Men for 8 hours a day.

      I imagine you rolled through a dozen guys in your head and went “those are Top Men? Are you nuts?”. And the answer is: yes, they are. They’re in a pure Alpha field and are working hard at it. It might be a moment of “God helps us all”, but they are Top Men. No matter how much you might try, you’re going to be constantly comparing a guy to the *top* guy you interact with constantly. Depending on the Law Firm you’re working for, that guy might eventually be a politician (or at least has designs on it). So, on a regular basis, you may interact with an Alpha’s Alpha.

      Which is exactly the problem a guy has when considering a Female Lawyer for a relationship. He’s not working to keep your respect comparative to “all Men”; he’s working to be compared an absolute Top Dog. That’s a losing proposition, across the board. Guys all know it, too. (That Female Lawyers also tend to act quite entitled doesn’t help measures either)

      So, to recap, you have many, many signs that you are: a legal risk, act like a man, and will constantly be comparing the guy to a Top Dog that he simply can’t compare to. A guy would have to, by general conception, apply titanic levels of Game with you. He’d need to be a hardass off the bat, which if you’re hiding your career, he would never open with. All just from your job title.

      (Side point: Female Lawyer’s tend to have one of the worst cases of Apex Fallacy Disease of any women. This is really most of the issue. You’re comparing guys to men that make 7 figures by force of persuasion. There’s no way to compete with that.)

      Now, I have no idea if you actually *are* any of those things. But what reason would I have to stick around to find out? That’s the crux of your problem.

      So, your options are actually very limited. You either need to reprogram your thinking, more in tune with your actual male prospects (and, at the same time, opening up your social set to actually meet men in that category), or go full out to land the type of men you normally interact with on a daily basis. Since the first would take WAY more energy than I have to expend at the moment, I’ll talk about the second option for some suggestions.

      To discuss how to be more feminine, I’ll explain male sexual attraction effectors. This is actually far easier than most women realize and the answers follow directly from the basics of that attraction.

      The thoughts that goes through a guy’s mind when gauging a woman, are something like:
      – 1) Is she attractive to me?
      – 2) Do I like to be around her?
      – 3) What do I have to put up with?
      – 4) Do 1 & 2 outweigh 3?

      This is why the “barefoot and pregnant” line could only have been written by a woman that knows nothing of men. You want your woman to look like a Super Model, be wearing only an Apron while making you a Steak, and is going to give you a Blowjob later because she wants to. That leads to these answers, for “Pie in the Sky” woman:

      1) I want to bone her right now.
      2) She makes me the food I want!
      3) She wants to sex ME up!

      This is obviously something that doesn’t exist, but it’s also something like the outer-bound for what guys would want. Plus it explains why Hot Girls can still get a lot of attention. If she’s really Hot, #1 will trump #2 & 3, at least for a long enough to get laid. (Realize that “sex” is an End Point for men. It is the result of a lot of work. Much in the way that “Commitment from a Man” is an End Point for a woman.)

      This leads us to the insights about being Feminine: The Traits that are pleasing and attractive to men. Those would be: charm, grace, modesty (your sexuality is for “your guy” only), regard for others, caring, compassionate, self-control, class, beauty and refinement.

      This doesn’t preclude many things, it is simply the way you carry yourself. You can be in command your situation and very powerful, and still be very feminine. They aren’t mutually exclusive of each other. That’s just a myth you’ve been sold. Being Feminine isn’t weak; being Masculine isn’t being strong, for a Woman. You simply just don’t take on the Male Signs of Power. (I.e. physical prowess, social dominance, displays of status) Those are the things that “make you like a man” and really turn guys off.

      Side point: Career and achievements do pretty much nothing positive for men, when it comes to attraction. Unless it’s “I won Ms. America”, though the next thought would generally be “high maintenance”. A career is normally a net-negative when it comes to relationship formation. It’s why getting married in college is a really solid idea for a capable woman.

      So, as a practical set of measures, the best idea is probably a change of wardrobe away from work, the willingness to *completely leave work at work*, and a new “approach to how you approach people”.

      For wardrobe, I normally suggest looking back to the Hollywood starlets of the 1940s and 50s era. They normally always dressed them in what is now “classical” looks. Sleek lines, accentuate the good bits, downplay the bad bits, full length dresses. Basically nothing that says “pantsuit”. Keep it to colors that match your complexion (i.e. bright red with a pale face is a BAD idea) and never get caught up in “trendy” stuff. The best trick is to make it so you just comfortably wear dresses outside of work. Might seem simple, but it’ll set you apart very quickly. It sends very different signals than a set of jeans.

      “Leaving work at work” is, unfortunately, considered a male trait. Or, more realistically, just something women have a very hard time doing. Your work isn’t your life, it’s just a major part of it. So, never let it become the only thing that gets talked about or takes over most discussions. So, make sure you can decompress.

      Side Point: Guys really don’t care about the details of the social drama at a work place, so unless it’s going to impact something, it’s probably not worth talking about. We’ll focus on the results of the tasks at hand. Since you’re a lawyer, the “how’d your day go?” question should really be answered in regards to how a case went or how something was filed (and any jokes or disasters that go along with it). Those, to a guy, are the actually important details. Guys tend to focus on “results” and not the “process”; women tend to be the opposite.

      On changing your approach to others, here’s one solid suggestion. When interacting with a man, outside of work, try to find 1 “good” thing about him. Just something positive that you like. You don’t need to like the guy or have any interest. Just find 1 thing positive about him. Keep this up for a few weeks. The first thing is that you should get a much better appreciation for what you actually like compared to what you think you do. The second is you’ll open yourself up to thinking about men differently. You’ll notice their good traits more, and you’ll find yourself attracted (and more able to spot) capable men that, previously, you wouldn’t really notice even existing.

      That’s a place to start. I don’t know if this helped, but it is what it is and my eyes hurt from staring at my screen. (I think I need to fiddle with some settings)

    • 30 Something,

      Being a woman entering the man-o-shpere can be very, very hard. Women read what is written on these pages and they take most/all of it personally, as if each and every post was written directly to us. It’s called solipsism and it’s very hard to get past. Try to keep in mind that even thought this particular post is written about you and many of the comments are about what you wrote, we don’t know you. What is being written in many of the comments is an amalgamation of the majority of women. Be introspective about what actually does apply to it (and it will be much more than you think) and what doesn’t. If you read this it might help you some.

      Drop the 10-15 pounds. It will help more than you think. Cut out sugar and grains (even the so called healthy ones) It will help so much and it gives you a nice glow.

      These days there is nothing that should be assumed. On your profile talk about what you are offering. All of it. Write it is a sweet (not silly) manner. PM can help you a lot more with this, but so many women only tell what they want and not what they are willing to bring to a relationship. Men really don’t care about your education level or your job. It’s not what men find arousing or comforting in a woman. Those are the things you must focus on.

      You said you don’t need a man to be happy or content. That you will live without one. As you are living without one now, are you happy and content? I mean truly happy and content? If the answer is no, that you would truly be much happier and more fulfilled with a man, THAT IS OK. Actually, that is great. Sure you would live. It’s easy to simply live without a man. It is no so easy to thrive and be utterly whole/fulfilled/at peace/warm/alive/joyful without a man. You have been told your whole life that you can be these things on your own. I’m sorry, but that’s just not true.

      You want someone to push you to be a better person. Ok. But what kind of a better person? A more masculinized version of yourself? Becoming more feminine is not about seizing anything. The first step is to realize that you are not feminine, which you have done. The second and most difficult step that you must complete is letting go. Masculine is about seizing and feminine is about letting go. It can be very hard to do. What will make it infinitely harder is that your friends will hate it and try to pull you back. Are you going to be ok with that?

      You need to be open to men. Encourage them. Smile often and genuinely. Dress like a woman, not how a woman thinks a man thinks a woman should dress. Stand up straight. When you like a man, touch him when you flirt, look him in the eye coyly, be demure. Don’t be aggressive sexually as all you will get is sex.

      You might also be interested in this.

      One last thing. Don’t be so quick to write off those women who need men, whom you referred to as cluster women. They might know more about the art of girl game than any other women you have ever met. They are playing outside the rules of girl word right now and many find them odd. They might be just the women you need to surround yourself with.

    • Privateman:

      comments like 30something’s lead me to believe you have your work much more cut out for you than you know.

    • One last thing, 30something:

      I noticed that you wrote a very long reply explaining your response to our points.

      I was very interested in what you did not say.

      Know what that was?

      You did not say a single word about what you have to offer a man. You did not say anything about how you would enhance his life, how you and he would make a life together, how you would do your best to love and support him. You said nothing about how you wanted to do those things for a man.

      Your reply was entirely about YOU and what YOU want and what YOU expect HIM to do for YOU and to give YOU and why YOU believe YOU are worthy because of YOUR “independence” and “competitiveness”.

      • 30something:

        Ask not what a man can do for you. Ask what you can do for a man.

      • Cail Corishev on said:

        I imagine she thought she was listing what she has to offer: independence, competitiveness, a good career. Woman have been promised that those are excellent qualities, so there must be men out there who will properly appreciate them, right?

      • It wasn’t just media, it was projection that led her to believe that those traits attract a man, because those traits appeal to her. She became the man she wanted, instead of a complement or partner for such a man.

    • Your comment about miscommunication is interesting. The things we read into your phrasing are based on our accumulated experiences with other women using those terms and our masculine perspective on relationships and how such traits have tended to manifest themselves over the course of a relationship. There’s a reason behind why we see each term as loaded.

      If you want to be more appealing to and better relate to men, you need to realize that the experiences and attitudes that inform our interpretation of your terms are quite widespread, and you’ll be “misunderstood” in the same way by a lot of men even outside these comment threads. Sure, only assholes in the manosphere will openly say how we interpret those terms, but people reading your online dating profile or hearing those words come out when meeting you will often see them in the same way, especially with some of the attitudes surrounding your attempted redefinitions (like your defensiveness regarding the legal profession – which is pretty obviously because a lot of your self-worth is invested in identifying as a lawyer), which tend to validate our interpretations.

      The thing to do is not to insist on redefining a series of terms in a manner contradicting all of a man’s prior experiences, but to think about and reformulate your choice of words, and ultimately, your self-perception and aspirations, in a way that makes you a better complement to the kind of man you want and with understanding of his wants, needs, and experiences.

      Plus, as others have noted, revisit your thinking about want and need and how those order your life and your romantic priorities.

    • The Seething Lurker on said:

      “1. I clearly need to find better pictures of myself for online profile purposes. Thanks for the fat comment, PM. For those of you who are curious, I am within 15 lbs of my ideal weight. I’ll give you that I should drop 10-15. That would take me from the 6/8/10 size I am to the 2/4/6 range.”

      Women’s clothing sizing is ridiculous. How is that one can be somewhere between a 2 and a 6? A better indication is height and weight. If you are in the ballpark of the government height-weight charts, you are in good shape. I trust the PM’s assesment that you are overweight, unless the photos are truly misleading. Which I doubt, since such a smart young lady would have posted the best and most flattering photos in her online dating ad.
      “2. I need to be better at “selling” myself on my profile, if I continue in online dating. The thought of selling anything–from girl scout cookies to my personality– kind of makes me want to throw up.”

      Isn’t “selling your self” something a lawyer does on a daily basis? You sell your arguments to your adversaries and judges; you sell your analysis to your clients; and you sell your package of skills and experiences to your employer. A dating advertisement requires you to yes, sell yourself to prospective suitors. Call it “argument” or “advancing your case” if that soothes your hamster. Articulate what makes you attractive and distinguishes you from other women. Some of these things are “givens” that need to be said. In the same way that a lawyer makes the obvious and not so obvious arguments in a brief. Newsflash: dating, especially online dating, takes place in a sexual/relationship marketplace. A marketplace is where goods are bought and sold. These are arms length transactions where the interests of the buyers and sellers are paramount. If you don’t bother to “sell” your goods they may not get bought. You seem to think that you are a special snowflake that men are clamoring for. However, that seems to clash with the harsh results of your experience, doesn’t it? Sounds like time for a 50% off sale. The sexual marketplace is harsh. Get over yourself and deal with it.

      “Despite what PM has said about my pictures, I think I’m still ok.”

      An unbiased, uninterested man has given you an honest appraisal and you just reject it? Quoting Athol Kay as to what is sexy, sexy is whatever is good for making and raising babies. A young, (indicative of fertility) attractive, (symmetrical features, indicative of good health) and proportionally sized (healthy weight, indicative of good health) woman in her early twenties is what men are hard wired to desire. If an unbiased man who is not trying to get into your pants (not some state trooper on the mack [game-recognized]) tells you that you have subprime assets, accept it and change the things that can be changed, i.e., weight management. The things that cannot be changed, your age, (a slight negative) your career (a negative) and your good looks (a positive) is what you have to work with. But denial is simply rationalizing your shortcomings.

    • 30something.
      My father used to tell me son that if he wanted to be treated like a man, and respected as one, then he had to act like one. I think that’s right – having a penis does not entitle you to respect.
      There are plenty of well balanced men out there who value normal women, who don’t require women to be dependent and subservient to them to make themselves feel good. Go and find them.
      The important things to take from these pages are that men like slim and feminine women who support them. That’s it.
      You’re fine as you are – you are asking the wrong men. You wouldn’t give the collected works of Shakespeare to someone who only read cartoon strips. Believe it or not, there are plenty of men who don’t feel the need to rubbish you to make themselves feel good about themselves, you just need to ensure you’re feminine, approachable, friendly and you’re out there meeting loads of them and smiling at them. That’s all they want really – to feel appreciated and valued. That’s what I do anyway and it works for me.

      • And…guess what…I’m significantly older than you. Really. All you have to do is smile and appreciate them because that’s what women don’t do.

      • You’re fine as you are – you are asking the wrong men.

        Very funny, fi. And, of course, wrong. She asked the right men. And has gotten a wealth of unvarnished advice. The fact that it’s not coated in candy-colored platitudes doesn’t mean she’s being “rubbished.” Though I’m not in the least surprised you don’t understand that.

        30something, by all means follow fi’s advice. It’s excellent advice to put you firmly on a path to frustration, spinsterhood, and cats. Lots of cats…

    • “ruthlessly independent (by necessity–a girl’s gotta live until she meets her mate, right?)”

      I know lot’s of men living independently. None ever had to be ruthless to do it. None of them ever had to specifically point out their independence. Once you reach adulthood, it is presumed you are independent. Homless people are independent. Big deal.

      “Unlike them, however, I have learned that I can change a tire and do quite a number of other things without the assistance of a y chromosome, but I don’t actually want to. ”

      What men know: ANYONE can do these things. NO ONE wants to. Men do it because who else will?

      “Although I cannot say that I want to spend my days barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, I do want my house to smell like cookies during the holidays and I want someone to mow the lawn”

      Oh, so YOU may or may not want to fill the female traditional roles but the man MUST fill the traditional male roles? Or, maybe you just want a butler.

      “who I can praise for a job well done that I don’t have to pay.”

      Oh, okay, you don’t want a butler (that you’d have to pay (poor little rich girl’s burden)), you want a chump or at the least, a beta sucker.

      “I know a shocking number of intelligent and attractive females of my age who share these thoughts.”

      Shocking how common bigotry can be. Such a pernicious thing!

      “but I am secretly afraid that we (intelligent, independent women that I know) are somehow secretly scaring away (or not attracting?) the men we are most attracted to”

      Scaring them? No. But putting them off by having a list of demands that look like a 1040 Tax Form that needs to be filled out in it’s entirety EVERY SINGLE DAY of the relationship puts a pain behind the eyes that makes a man want to run away before the first sentence about how your awesomness should be properly recognized and honored is even finished.

      “a competent and confident male”.

      That list of qualifications is hardly complete. You know, I know it, your friends know it, everyone here knows it, my parakeet knows it. You don’t have have the strength of character to EVEN ADMIT the list you have is a mile long.

      “Basically, someone we respect enough to let lead”

      Well, golly! If I’m really a good leader maybe I can have iced cream in bed too!

      “I do not think there is a greater compliment that I can pay to a man than to: (1) ask him his opinion and (2) follow his advice.”

      Oh goodness, the thought of earning one of your patronizing “compliments” through undying betatude just sends me all a quiver.

      “I have turned to the on-line world and seem to only attract guys with a million kids by 8 different women, who can’t support themselves, much less their progeny.”

      Ahhhh, so you’re bad boi shopping and getting annoyed that they’re all, well… bad.

      “Or, I attract a man who lacks confidence and self-worth. If he doesn’t value himself, why should I? Or if he is incapable of making his own life decisions, I am certainly not going to let him make mine.”

      Absolutely, If we can’t be smart enough to Eat, Pray, Love our way to the answer to the meaning of life before we’ve burdened you with our company, why can’t we be decent enough to just crawl off to a corner and die so we undecideds aren’t polluting your catalog shopping for a “real” man. God, if only all that Ritalin they stuffed down our throats in grade school and all the anti-male shaming we’ve endured would have made “real” confident men out of us! Then you’d NEVER have to be inconvenienced but us chumps and your fantasy league would be chock full of winners.

      “That I would need to indicate, in detail, on my profile that I am kind, caring, affectionate, thoughtful, trustworthy, happy, sweet, not a harpie, etc. would never occur to me. Those seem like givens”


      “Independent” – That’s right, my life isn’t a train wreck. I do not need a man to make me happy or content. Without one, I’ll live.”

      Uh.. Yeah. EVERYBODY knows that. But thanks for the pearl of wisdom doctor obvious.

      “Some of you believe that we should need a man.”

      You might want to look around you. You not only need “a man”, you need an army of them to invent, build and maintain virtually everything around you that makes your life comfortable and modern. As a status seeking lawyer, you surely recognize that no equality seeking women are banging down anyone’s doors to demand a gender balance in trash hauling, plumbing or the mining industries. MEN have made your life what it is. You need them if for no other reason that you sure as sh*t aren’t willing to give up what you’ve got to live ‘man need free’ in a cave, kill your own food and wipe your as* with pine cones.

      “I don’t need a man; I want one.”

      I don’t need a Rolex; I want one. I do need a watch though and this Seiko is perfectly fine AND what I can afford to get my hands on.

      “I need food and shelter. I will always have those things, so I take them for granted.”

      Well that proved you don’t have to be smart or particularly locical to get a law degree. You should ask some homeless people if they always thought they’d have those things.

      “You want me to want you; you want to be a luxury good, not a need.”

      Right, because they wealthy never get bored with their toys and toss them for new ones. BTW – has anyone recently seen that little dog that Paris Hilton used to tote around in her purse a few years back? Heck, has anyone even seen that purse recently? Uh, yeah, so I definitely want to be a luxury good. *That* piece of brlliance has enduring relationship written all over it.


      You talk about this A LOT. Like, you might need to talk to a therapist a lot.

      “I do know where I belong, and what I am willing to do in the right relationship.”

      Well hurray for you. I guess it’s just another male failing that we can’t read you mind and know that fact.

      “Lady Lawyer” Yeah, I get to use my brain at work, and I like it.”

      Your CONSTANT mantra of “lawyer” and “independent” screams INSECURITY!!!! You’re like a little kid telling every person he meets for a month straight that he won the spelling bee. Yeah, great, you can spell. We all get it. We’re all impressed. I can tie my shoes and I’m only 44! Yeah, I know, pretty great since I don’t think anyone else has ever mastered that, or lawerying or independence before you and I came along. Let’s take a moment now to look down on all those adults who can’t tie their shoes or aren’t independent or who don’t do demanding jobs…

      “Competitive” – yes, I am. That doesn’t mean I want to dominate you, or have an endless struggle for power. It means that I react well to someone else pushing me to be a better person.”

      Yes, competetive means exactly that dominate, struggle for powwer. Reacting to someone pushing you to be a better person may have a single word to describe it – I can’t say for sure. What I can say is whatever that word is, it’s NOT “competetive.” I’d have thought a lawyer would have a better command of vocabulary. If you’re using that word to describe yourself, then it is a primary characteristic you shoose to display. If you are choosing to point it out in a profile for gaing an intimate relationship, then you are pointing out that this characteristic will be a component of the relationship. Here’s a free tip: no man wants to live in competition mode 24/7 especially within an intimate relationship. It gets tedious and women can’t handle male competetive mode anyway (hence all the special rules for women.)

      “Lots of the males I have run across, do not have survival skills. They have lead privliged and sheltered lives.”

      This is funny. Unless you were born in a cave and raised by wolves, your survival skills are no better and your life was just as sheltered. Add to that the fact that in this society most males must self neuter to no end up a prisoner or pariah then really, this comment is ALREADY displaying your competetive bitchiness that you swear isn’t you.

      “At the end of the day, I (and the others I know) am looking to be happy and content. That is not achieved through deception. ”

      Color your hair? Wear heels? Wear flattering clothes? Wear make up? Put on aires? Drive a BMW? Live in more house than you need but which diplays your lawyerly “status”? Deception is all you are. Deception is all most women are. You sound like Richard Nixon when he claimed that “he’s not a crook.”

      “The circumstances of my life required that I focus more on surviving ” AND “I need food and shelter. I will always have those things, so I take them for granted. ”

      So if ffod and shelter are the things you’ll always have and take for granted then what is this “surviving” about? I’m going to guess based on your odd way of defining common words that you are using “surviving” to mean “status hunting.” So what you really are saying is that in your twenties you were chasing a degree in a status field. Dunno what planet other than planet woman that could possibly mean surviving but you yourself admit you always knew that you’d have food and shelter and therefore take them for granted. Very strange.

      “Anyway, thanks for the comments. Please forgive typos, misspellings and grammar issues. I get lazy when I am not at work.”

      So your dress the nines for work and deliver sweats and a t-shirt for the homelife. Got it. What man can’t get excited about that? Deceptive? Nah…

    • Infantry on said:

      Of course she’s going to be defensive when confronted by a massive paradigm shift and language that isn’t couched to not offend typical female sensibilities.

      It’s not 100% hamsterisms here. Look at this:

      That some women don’t know how to be feminine. I kind of don’t. The circumstances of my life required that I focus more on surviving than having fun and flirtatious teens and twenties. Many of the single professional women I know had equally difficult childhoods. Maybe we are broken.

      I do know where I belong, and what I am willing to do in the right relationship. So, no, I will not bow to every man that walks through my life. He has to deserve my submission, not just have a penis. It is a big sacrifice, for you, on my part.

      She also had assented to some of the wisdom offered. A good start.

      If she:
      1) Loses weight
      2) Accepts that she will let the (right) man lead
      3) Works on her femininity
      4) Thinks about what she can offer the right man and projects that outward

      I think she’s on the right track.

      Her attitude is likely to change once she starts seeing results.Everyone seems to want her attitude to change first, but I strongly believe that this change is part of the process. Think of PUAs who hate women, who start to love them as they digest the red pill and manage to accept women for who they are.

    • groundhog on said:

      Fi, you superficially talk about not giving Shakespeare to people who are interested in cartoon strips, trying to shame the men on here as dumbasses in the process. Please remember that 30something is not giving us anything, she is asking us for advice. If anything, it is the posters on here who are giving something. And what’s all this snobbery about cartoons, which are often funny, sophisticated and insightful.
      My advice to 30something would be to read everything. If it’s Shakespeare you want, then try The Taming of the Shrew – all about the Red Pill – and take it from there. But it’s not really what you read, it’s also how you read it. Take a look at Hamlet – an object lesson in modern dating and relationships. Ophelia wasn’t oppressed because Hamlet wouldn’t commit, as Fi probably learned in her Women’s Studies Shakespeare class. Ophelia went batshit crazy because Hamlet just wasn’t interested in her.
      Looks to me like 30something has started to realise that the way she was taught Shakespeare in school is useless to her life now and is looking for a more relevant perspective. She’ll find it in the Manosphere.

    • “You want me to want you; you want to be a luxury good, not a need.”

      Wants are far more fleeting than needs. I’d rather a woman need me. If that means you will take advantage of me.. then how’s that my fault?

      I think this is the point you are missing.

      You can be “independant” (less relationship work for us), you can be “competitive” (yay, a woman we don’t have to beat around the bush with), but you have to need us. Loyalty is just as important as confidence, and competency.. and the life survival skills you are talking about.

      Men define love through loyalty.

      For women, love seems to be merely reactionary and that gives me no reason to seek lifelong commitment but actually warns me against it.

  23. There’s something no one told high school and college kids.

    The years that a man spends after college building a career – perhaps going to law school, starting to practice law, and progressing to a 6-figure salary – all make him more attractive as a potential husband and father.

    Yes, a woman can do these things just as well as a man, but the snag is that they add nothing to her prospects for marriage: literally nothing. On the contrary, she reduces her chances in two ways. First is the opportunity cost of the years spent building her career. Second, because a woman usually has a natural desire to marry a man of higher status than herself, her career success dramatically reduces the number of men she will see as potential husbands.

    These are harsh truths that, if spoken, would get high school teachers fired, foster parents declared unfit, and so on. Our society literally prefers to tell young people pretty lies, and let them figure out the truth for themselves 10 or 20 years later.

    • Infantry on said:

      Yes, a woman can do these things just as well as a man, but the snag is that they add nothing to her prospects for marriage: literally nothing.

      I agree in general. In particular though there’s a school of thought emerging that men shouldn’t marry women who don’t earn a similar level of income and due to work commitments spend a similar amount of time with any kids. The reason for this is post-divorce financial settlements, child support and custody considerations.

      On the balance of it, I’d still rather go for the more feminine girl, but if she happens to earn six figures too it won’t hurt her chances….

  24. Johnycomelately on said:

    I know too many women like Annie north of 35 and in the same boat, spouting the same things they did when they were 30, the majority of which will never find their catch. They all go about their daily routines expecting magic to ‘happen’ but end up sad, lonely and broken. Or worse still, with someone they don’t love.

    Once in a while they’ll hit the dating sites but more as a distraction and an ego boost than anything else. Deep down I think it’s a fear to confront their true dating market value, easier to avoid than confront reality.

    Annie needs to get her arse into overdrive and use the same tenacity to dating as she has applied to her career.

    Hit the gym
    Diet healthily
    Grow long hair
    Improve social circles
    Socialize more often
    Get out of comfort zone, try new things
    Improve feminine body language
    Dress sexily
    Own up to her desires and allow herself to be vulnerable
    Exude sexuality (not the slut kind)

    Can’t emphasize on the sexuality aspect enough, men can smell indifference at a 100 paces.

    It’s an uphill battle but not impossible.

    • Thanks Johnycomelately; I appreciate the direction and the hope! I already have some of your recommendations in progress but I obviously need to work harder at them as well as the others points I was oblivious too.

  25. “Although I cannot say that I want to spend my days barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, I do want my house to smell like cookies during the holidays and I want someone to mow the lawn, who I can praise for a job well done that I don’t have to pay.”

    Yikes. Maybe I’m being too negative, but this sentence sounds like she wants a kitchen bitch/free handyman, not an entire person. This is about as off-putting and socially clueless as if a man said “I want a woman who will fuck me daily that I don’t have to pay”.

  26. Pingback: Link Love Thursday, eer, Friday « Adventures in Red Pill Wifery

  27. What’s the real undercurrent beneath all this crap? Simple. She makes six figures. She is a lawyer. She will DESTROY anyone who dares cross her path in divorce, and muster a gaggle of bitch lawyers pro bono to help her fuck you. Unless you are a millionaire to fight in the divorce, you’re done. Better move to Bangladesh and change your name. She can’t marry anyone who makes less than her, because she knows the law, and she ain’t stupid enough to pay someone else alimony. But she wants to find the few remaining rich stupid men who would be dumb enough to sign up for alimony to her. Funny how teh womenz are smart enough not to take the alimony bait if they are gonna lose, why are men so fucking dumb.

    • wingman on said:

      I knew a sharp, sexy, lady divorce lawyer in New York married to a non-lawyer. This issue always scared him. Here’s what he did – he made an agreement that in case of divorce, he would use her boss as his attorney.

  28. While I appreciate this gal’s efforts to sort out her man-problems – in this regard she outpaces most American women of her generation, who almost universally refuse to admit anything could possibly be wrong with them – it needs to be understood that, barring a full-bore personality transplant, her odds of finding the “right” man (by her standards) are very, very low.

    All current-day American women believe they are the exception to the “3 win, 97 lose” rule. Numbers? What numbers? Feminism has merely amplified and even venerated the human female’s natural tendency to narcissism and escapism. Some of the smarter gals by 30something begin to have doubts; most of them suppress it since actually facing the horrible truth – that the joke really is on them – is too awful to stomach.

    This gal – no lady, she – is a lawyer, which is really all you need to know. All “professional” women are terrible mates/spouses/whatevers, but lawyercunts (per Roissy) are a special category of awfulness. No man with any sense uses them as anything more than fucktoys, and even that I would caution against. (I fuck plenty of “professional” gals – doctors, therapists, professors, accountants, et al, but I have never been horny enough to nail a lawyer: never worth it.)

    It’s a given, even if she avoids this reality, that this gal needs to slim down, get in shape, look her best, etc. That, at least, may get her more one-night-stands. An actual LTR? Marriage? Not likely to happen, babe, sorry.

    You would have to stop being yourself, by which I mean radically reassess pretty much everything you think you know and hold dear about yourself, your gender, and our society. That’s tough to do at any age. It’s damn hard past 30 when you are a “successful” and “empowered” woman in 2012 America.

    On the plus side, learning to speak cat is pretty easy.

  29. “Like the feminists before me, I do not need a man to save me from my life.”

    “Actually, it sounds like you do.”

    The thing is even when women don`t need men materially they need them emotionally/mentally, intellectually. The fact that the manosphere is needed to help women get on a more constructive course in their dating and personal lives is evidence of this. When left to their own devices because men are silenced, women will, over time as a group, come up with all sorts of dysfunctional beliefs and hamsterizations that leads to badly lived lives. Examples: It does not matter if you are fat, if a man is not attracted to you being seriously overweight that is a dysfunction in him. Getting divorced at 45 because because although the marriage is happy it is not happy enough. Becoming as masculine and as professionally successful as possible IN ORDER TO attract men. Believing that acting like and alpha male will attract men. Believing that empathy without boundaries and rules will work and not be dysfunctional. Letting people of the hook for just about anything as long as they deliver the right Oprah confession platitudes. Making work comfortable instead of functional to the extent that work looses its functionality and becomes unprofitable. Bouncing from one thing to another and sticking with none. Not taking personal responsibility and explaining everything in life as something that happened to you because of something or someone outside of yourself. Lack of honesty with oneself.

    Such a list could be written way,way, way longer. Without the imput of men in the culture and in the personal lives of women they will spin out of control. Likewise without the input of women men will be dysfunctional. Men will become excessively hard, too cold, too rigid, too unforgiving, too rule focused, they will organize things too dogmatically, etc. etc. The fact is men and women need each other on all levels. Testosterone makes one think in one way and estrogen in another. Both are halves of a whole and without the other you get dysfunction. An example that could be used as an analogy for this process in all areas of life is to look at parenting. Women provide, on average, a lot more of the empathy, caring, nurturing and forgiving parts of parenting. Men provide (at least in an unfeminized culture) far more of the setting of boundaries, the discipline, the structure, the unwavering ethical principles to uphold, the future time orientation, the realism, the willingness to endure discomfort, and they support the process of breaking free from the family bond which mothers tend to cling to too much.

    If you provide only the soft side you get dysfunction if you provide only the hard side you get dysfunction. Parenting, and actually everything else, is meant to work through the balancing of opposing specialized male and female forces. Yin and yang. Both together bring harmony and both separately is dysfunction. So a culture that that has repressed male values and male input to the degree that women have NO CLUE what men REALLY think of anything will be a culture that is dysfunctional in almost all areas because of its lack of male perspective. If you are curious google yin excess and TCM (traditional chinese medicine) or maybe symptoms of too much yin and weak yang or something along those lines and see if those descriptions don`t pretty accurately describe dysfunctions not only in western dating culture but in western culture in general the last 40 years.

  30. Dillon on said:

    @ 30something single professional woman

    1) Understand that you are not independent. I’m neither. Anyone who wouldn’t survive if left all alone in the wilderness is dependent on others. Those others are usually men and indirectly their mothers.

    2) Men are not too crazy about lady lawyers, cops etc. Its a good idea not to mention it in the first few dates. If you think you are smart, you are not. Sorry.

    3) Online dating is overrated. Few people believe what you say in profile or your pic. You should be meeting people in real life. Just smile and get along. Its easy. Don’t try to “correct” every “mistake” you see. Let others be.

    4) Be the change you want in the world. For example If you want unconditional love, try giving it first and re-evaluate expectations.

    5) The market doesn’t lie. Theres no “should be” only what “is”. Live in reality. Sometimes we can’t get the price we want. That’s just how it is.

    6) Stop listening to other women or mass media, they will steer you wrong for their own benefit.

  31. What struck me from reading what she wrote was her put-down in the last part bar one; she was only too keen to reject men who were interested in her (for being a Mommy’s boy, for being insecure and unconfident, effectively for being poor etc) when overweight and over thirty, she was herself untaken, yet her entitlement to a ‘strong decisive’ man still shone through. I suggest she gets used to the idea of being single, after all she is strong and confident and I say that as a lawyer who would rather eat barbed-wire than date a female lawyer, and not because they make me afraid – obviously not – but because they tend to be unpleasant unattractive bitches, full of their own self-importance – but a legal qulaification for a woman is in the dating market only go-faster stripes. In reality most female lawyers are underlings and they are only lawyers after all – it is the clients who tend to be wealthy! You do not get male lawyers with such entitled – I deserve it all – attitudes. Her comment is, I feel, a thinly disguised attempt to assert her own justification to having a top man. Just reverse the sexes in the comment to see how self-important and losewr-ish the comment appears, behind all the self-confident nonsense she is spouting.

  32. Darn it. I forgot that too many links puts one in moderation. PM, when you get a moment, would you please take me out?

  33. Random Angeleno on said:

    @30 something professional woman:
    If there is just one thing you can take away from all this, it’s this: the feminine attracts the masculine. From the viewpoint of nearly all men, there is very little if anything that is feminine about being a lawyer. Given what we know of the feminist programming that permeates female lawyer education, you’ve got a lot of non-feminine influences in your life that you need to reassess. These non-feminine things shine through nearly everything you’re writing here and consequently make you very unattractive to most men. You desperately need a big serving of humble pie … like yesterday.

    Being feminine does not mean being weak: femininity carries its own extraordinary power, power that can be used for good … or for bad. Men like being around women who use their femininity in a positive way; they don’t like being around women who use it in a negative way. It really is that simple and it is very firmly your choice every single day how you choose to exercise that power. Are you the kind of woman a man wants to be with? Are you the kind of woman a man wants to come home to and share his life with? Are you feminine enough and secure enough in your femininity to embrace the masculine in your man instead of competing with him?

    These are tough questions; too few women in your shoes will even deign to come near them. It is to your credit that you’ve hung in there with Private Man and this thread. It is my experience that most women don’t like being told the truth when it conflicts with their own view of what the truth should be. Instead of getting defensive, try to understand why we might say these tough things to you, try to find the gems in here, try to find the femininity in yourself.

    What you can do about your weight may be limited, but there is a lot you can do about how you dress, style your hair, apply your makeup and interact with men in ways that appeal to them instead of pushes them away. Again: the feminine attracts the masculine!!!!!! Good luck…

  34. Tam the Bam on said:

    Sounds like a nice young girl, if more than a bit muddled.
    Although I was sidling towards the exit at ” .. mowing the lawn”.
    What the hey?
    Not a chance. Spent too many years thrashing the the ground with a shovel, and worse, to want to even look at that green muck after hours.

    You’re getting slabs out front, complete with oilstains and a nearly-unrecognisable half-dismantled vehicle. Or two.
    Round the back, how about chickens? You could be churning out out baking all day long if that’s your ambition, with proper eggs. And all that awful grass is just gone.
    Don’t worry, I’ll do any neck-thowing and plucking that might needed, very discreetly, no noise or mess.

    Don’t have any ready money, mind. Maybe on account of being quite remarkably decisive when required, but usually after a lo-o-ong think.

  35. Candide on said:

    “I’m 15 pounds above my ideal weight” = I’m 15 pounds more than the average woman I see around me. In a fat state, it probably means anywhere from 45 to 100 pounds overweight. With the clothing sizes she posted up, assuming she’s of average height, I’d say between 45 and 75 pounds. The average American woman is 5’4″ and 160 pounds which is about 45 pounds overweight. 5’4″ 160 pounds is the size of a very muscular & lean male (albeit a short one).

    No wonder she’s attracting the kind of guys she mentioned in the original email.

  36. Looking Glass on said:

    deti wrote, “Remember the “rule of 2″. Consider a woman’s N. Take the N she admits to and double it (some say triple it); and now you have a good idea of her true N.

    It used to be the rule of three. Triple the admitted number to get the real number of sexual trysts with different men.

    Nowadays, after Bill “Anything With a Hole in It” Clinton’s redefinition of oral sex, places like Hooking Up Smart gleefully declare that “oral doesn’t count.” All of the other excuses you listed are also in play. I’ve posted similar “didn’t count” lists, too.

    So multiply any admitted number by ten to get a realistic score of the different men who’ve felt her willing flesh on their erections, stimulating it to the point of ejaculation.

    Picture her with that many hard, hairy naked penises spraying on her flesh before even considering a relationship with her.

    Then start checking online for images.

    • “…….different men who’ve felt her willing flesh on their erections, stimulating it to the point of ejaculation. Picture her with that many hard, hairy naked penises spraying on her flesh before even considering a relationship with her. Then start checking online for images”.
      😆 I’m only looking for ‘research purposes’

  37. Well I for one admire her courage to comment. The reality is harsh but better to know the truth than to delude yourself. She’s smart in seeking out help. The larger lesson would be best learned by the younger gals.

    * Slutting away your 20’s is going to have consequences (Not imply Annie did)

    * Girls, you will always be able to fk a better guy than you can actually land. Most chicks have no understanding of that and bring their 67 bullet point entitlement checklist into dating because they think expect to land what they used to fk. I personally have no patience for any hint of this attitude especially in a post 30’s chick.

    * Femininity and beauty trumps accolades.

    * Men will always desire women near their peak. If you waited till your 30’s you took a bigger risk than Sex in the City led you to believe. Delude yourself at your own risk.

    * There’s a wall after the peak. You know it, we know it. Weigh that in the “What do I have to offer him” column.

    * Be the snarky, stubborn, argumentative or all the other “Strong Independent Womyn” stereotypes and I, for one, will be glad to “next” you for a younger, hotter, lower mileage chick.

    It’s just the reality of the situation.

    • Infantry on said:

      Indeed. Most women aren’t aware that they have 2 ‘leagues’ and that the hottest guy they can get for commitment is always going to be less attractive than the guys they can get to have sex with them.

      I wonder how much of this assumed entitlement is responsible for their hypergamy.

  38. Looking Glass on said:

    “We are becoming the men we wanted to marry.” – Gloria Steinem.

    Relationships involve exchanges, generally one gives up a personal surplus to gain access to someone with a surplus of what you want.

    In short, thirty-something professional men have all the “thirty-something”, “professional”, and “masculine”, that they want. In fact, they’re looking to exchange those surpluses for someone with surpluses of youth, femininity, and fertility.

    Feminism has made sure that’s available for them, with fresh legions turning twenty-one every year.

    That’s why nineteen year old girls will ask out thirty-something professional men. As covered in an article discussed at the Oz Conservative.

  39. I’d like to clear up the confusion round the word ‘nice’ too, as used by a woman. When a woman dislikes a man for being needy (demonstrated by giving in to her, buying gifts and flowers, agreeing with her etc ) she wll describe him as being too “nice”. However when she says she would like to meet a nice man she means one that is pleasant and treats her with respect. Women understand the subtleties involved in using this word in these 2 different scenarios whereas men see only one definition, the former.

    • No. Men see both “definitions” of “nice” as what they are: lies. But they are an interesting glimpse at the process of the hamster rationalizing the cognitive dissonance. Dismissing men for unattractive behavior as “nice” and in the same breath claiming their desire for a “nice” man when that’s not what they actually mean. The Charismatic man ignores both for the untruths they are…

      • Hmmmm. Rationalise it to yourself how you want, but you’d be more successgful with the laydeez if you listened to them sometimes.

      • Very amusing, fi. Men don’t rationalize women’s rationalizations. And I’m quite successful with the ladies by observing and noting their actions, not listening to their words…

      • @Fi

        Funny.. I spent my blue pill days doing just that. Taking advice and ques from women I thought were friends (ladder theory reference goes here).. it wasn’t until I went through an angry period where I just didn’t give a fuck that I finally got laid. ‘Nice’ is bullshit.

    • I am in agreement with Lost Sailor and I say this sans malice but with complete sincerity:

      The less I listen to women explain themselves the more I understand them.

    • fi:

      LostSailor is right. When a woman says she wants a “nice” man, she’s lying, or at least not telling the whole truth.

      A woman does not want a “nice” man. She wants a strong, competent, dominant man who is kind and polite TO HER. When a woman talks about the attributes she wants in a man, she does not talk about wanting confidence or dominance because she either (1) simply presumes it and takes it as a given; or (2) knows what that is but cannot articulate it.

      • “when she says she would like to meet a nice man she means one that is pleasant and treats her with respect” is exactly the same as “man who is kind and polite TO HER”.

        The rest of your statement I also agree with, but I was clarifying what women mean by ‘nice’ not listing attributes women look for in a man.

  40. rudiger on said:

    If she lost a few, I’d date her for a few months. But I’m assume she’s looking for a long term partner. I married a supreme court clerk, I’m a musician and teacher. I drove her to pick up her signing bonus check. When I saw the $90,000 check, I got a weird feeling that I was in trouble. Obviously the marriage didnt last long. But her legal savvy and wealth allowed her to move my son a 1000 miles away. Which sucks.

    MOST men feel emasculated by a woman who makes more money or is even more successful in other ways. MOST women (Im guessing) feel disgust for a man who makes less than they do.

    Warren Farrell has some interesting things to say about this. Women need to overcome their urge to marry up. Men should be allowed to take care of the house and children without social shame. I don’t see either sexes ever doing that. I forever don’t see it. Like Private says, biology trumps it all. But are you going to tell an 18 year old that she shouldnt become a doctor cause she will be be 30 someday?

    We are in a pickle, my friends. A crisp, tangy, delicious pickle….

  41. rudiger on said:

    “And if you know very many women, you know that our wants rank way higher on our priority list than our needs.” HA! Just saw this. American girls want everything in the world you could possibly imagine!

  42. Ironically, she’s pretty obviously most of the way there already. And the kind of men she wants aren’t nearly as rare as the kind of women those men want are.

  43. Titanium on said:

    Respect from a man has to be earned. It is not automatically given just because a woman asks for it.

  44. I think the more practical advice at this point is for her to become more masculine. She might not really be happy, but it’s a least attainable, and she won’t have to worry about those 15-25lbs! So, start considering the guys without careers, the younger guys, even virgins (so hot!), and don’t be afraid to pay. Otherwise swallow the SMV hit and target the AARP demographic. My grandfather maintained a couple of acres until he was 90, so there is still hope.

  45. BALZAC on said:

    MOST important:

    Learn to dance Argentine tango.

    And experience the delight any woman feels when she is led by a competent man.

  46. just visiting on said:

    I’m cross posting part of a comment that I made on another blog.
    The term strong and independant or wanting a man instead of needing a man can be like waving a red flag to the men in the sphere. I’d like to offer some insight into why she and other women say such things.

    ……………..The comment thread at Private Man’s blog has blown up. A thirty something careerist has asked for advice about men. She describes herself as strong and independant, and when defending herself, she says that she doesn’t need a man, that she want’s a man.

    I’ve spent a year in the sphere. And I’m aware of what Strong and independant means to men. But I don’t think that they know what it means to women. It’s code. That’s why you keep seeing women saying it in profiles.

    Just as the careerist claims, it means “I don’t need you so if we were together, I would want you.” This is the equivallent of a man saying that he’s not a player looking to use a woman, but is looking for love………………..

    When a man says that he needs a woman he’s thinking love or oneitis. When he says he wants a woman, he means her body.

    A woman can need a man, but love or even lust doesn’t enter the picture. She can even despise him.
    We compartamentalize need from lust/love. A man compartamentalizes lust and love.

    So, the woman posting the question probably doesn’t understand why her wording upsets you.


    • Agree. ‘Independent’ to a woman means she isn’t going to be clingy and will be happy for you to have your own friends and interests and she won’t get in the way or try to stop you doing anything you want to, and if she’s with you it’s because she really likes you not.

      • Er ignore the ‘not’, I was going to add something there then changed my mind – a female prerogative I believe. You know what we’re like! 😉

      • Cail Corishev on said:

        But where did women get the idea that men hate “clingy” women? I’m not even sure what that word means, but it appears to be a total strawman created to urge women to be more detached and bossy.

    • @ just visiting:

      “So, the woman posting the question probably doesn’t understand why her wording upsets you.”

      That’s all very well and good. But someone upthread, I think Cail, brought up a good point, which is this: 30something needs to understand the lingo her target audience speaks. And that target audience understands “strong and independent woman” to mean “uppity bitch who will never, ever submit to a man”.

      It really doesn’t matter why her wording upsets men. It also doesn’t matter one bit that she doesn’t understand why. What matters is that when a man hears 30something talk about her fabulous career and her strength and independence, what he hears is “I am in charge here, not you. I will make the rules, not you. You are an accessory, a prop, in my life — here for me to use as long as you have utility for me.”

      30something needs to spend more time thinking about how she can attract a man and what she can offer him. She needs to spend a little less time trying to justify herself and her past decisions, and waxing prolix on the fabulousness of herself and her career.

      Hint, 30something: what you might have to offer is NOT your career, NOT your salary, NOT your job, NOT your wit, NOT your storytelling ability, NOT your friends, NOT your travel tales, and most definitely NOT your strength and independence. What you might have to offer would be kindness, pleasantness, cheerfulness, a soft touch, an encouraging word, a hot homecooked meal, and good sex at reasonable intervals.

      It is respectfully suggested that 30something’s tactics up to this point have not worked so swimmingly; and it is now time for her to try something different.

      Finally on this point: This is probably one of those examples of how one probably ought give more credence to a woman’s conduct than to her statements — especially her statements about her own conduct.

    • Completely disagree. Men are more forward than that. If a man just wants a woman’s body, he will say exactly that.

      Men don’t want to be just wanted. It is not enough of us to have only your “desire”. We understand, intrinsically, that desire is as malleable and changeable as watered down pudding.

      Love needs to run deeper than just desire.

      • just visiting on said:

        @ Obmon
        Yes love runs deeper than desire. I’m just showing how men and women get tripped up on

        language. Usually we mean the same thing. But in certain situations like this , we end up meaning the opposite of each other.

        This is because men did not evolve to need women for protection and resources. We did. If a man is interested in a woman it gets processed as love or lust. We have another catagory. Need. And it ranks below lust. Also, love and lust are not necessarily in different catagories for women. We can push it there, but not in the way men can, and it’s damaging to us.

        Since there’s an extra catagory, and we compartamentalize differently, we end up meaning different things.

  47. Jacob Ian Stalk on said:

    Your advice is sound, but the woman herself is a socipathic basket case.

    To the woman you write about (and any others who might be living the same fresh hell) I say this:

    You are struggling to find a mate because you are undesirable as a mate, even as a human being. Not only this, you seems unrepentant about this, full of pride in your self-centred achievements, almost gleeful. The magnitude of this gap in understanding between how you rate yourself and how the rest of the world sees you is astounding. Even those you call friends are likely to only be your friends because they themselves are as undesirable as you and cannot find better people who will be friends with them. Your only saving grace as far as I can see is that you seeks to learn more about yourself. You’ve not yet accepted that you yourself are morally corrupt, but at least you want to learn and that’s a start.

    In your own words:

    “I am perhaps your epitome of pushy, hard-headed female”

    There is nothing, read that: NOTHING, attractive about a hard-headed female. Not to men and not to women. Being pushy to boot makes you not only unattractive but an intrusive bully as well. These traits are unattractive in anyone, let alone in women, especially women lawyers who are taught behind the scenes not law but how to manipulate the legal system to their own gender advantage. These traits are about as ugly as they come. Their character is common, the hallmarks of the uncultured, uncivilised, unsophisticated, ill-tutored, self-centred person. I wouldn’t stay in the same room with such a creature, male or female, for more than five minutes.

    “I am very educated (lawyer), ruthlessly independent (by necessity–a girl’s gotta live until she meets her mate, right?), capable and young-ish (just turned 30).”

    There’s so much in here that rates high on the undesirable person index. Being a lawyer puts you close to the bottom of most people’s list of attractive professions already. In any case, lawyers are not “very educated” by default, they have merely studied a particular way of looking at the world, more often than not into obscurity. Being ruthlessly independent makes you a sociopath, by definition, and thinking yourself capable at just-turned-30 after spending 75% of your adult life in the plastic-wrapped college environment (particularly law school), just makes you a fool. And from which dictionary for the ruthlessly independent educated lawyer woman’s play-book comes the idea that a “girl’s gotta live until she finds her mate”? Sounds like you’ve ridden the feminist gravy train for your own selfish ends and will continue to do so until some chump comes along to pick up where college left off.

    “Like the feminists before me, I do not need a man to save me from my life.”

    But, sister, you clearly do. Oh my God you do. This narcissistic, self-centred path you’re on will lead you only to a new fresh hell in every season of your life. As you well know.

    “Unlike them, however, I have learned that I can change a tire and do quite a number of other things without the assistance of a y chromosome, but I don’t actually want to.”

    Men do not change tires because they want to, sister. Like almost everything else men do for women, they do it because women don’t want to. Women’s wants are the controlling factor here – virtually every innovation that is made in the world is driven by the comfort-seeking nature of women, and their self-centred belief than men are there to serve them. This is not evidence of a ruthlessly independent woman – it is the very essence of lazy entitlement and privilege.

    “Although I cannot say that I want to spend my days barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen”

    What mentally stable human being does? This feminist shibboleth is as puerile and facile as it sounds. I challenge you to find a single human being alive who has any knowledge of any woman who has ever spent her days in these conditions. When used even ironically, this statement reveals the dishonest heart of the user.

    “I want someone to mow the lawn, who I can praise for a job well done that I don’t have to pay. I know a shocking number of intelligent and attractive females of my age who share these thoughts.”

    Indeed, this is the crux of the matter. Men work. Women don’t pay. Feminism in a nutshell: the demand for rights and privileges for women, without obligations.

    “I haven’t expressed this concern to my girlfriends, but I am secretly afraid that we (intelligent, independent women that I know) are somehow secretly scaring away (or not attracting?) the men we are most attracted to: a competent and confident male.”

    There you go again: harping on about intelligence and independence. Yet what I read is neither intelligent nor independent. An intelligent woman would realise that men do not want women to be like men, competing with them in every way possible. An intelligent woman would realise that men don’t compete for fun, but because their success against other men is how they are judged worthy in the eyes of a prospective mate. Healthy men don’t want to compete with a woman – not because they can’t but because it defeats the purpose. Men have to deal with competition every day from other men – why would they want from women what they can get every day from other men? Men are not scared away by intelligent, independent women, they are repulsed by women who always compete with them – in exactly the same way women are repulsed by men who are always soft and pliant. Neither behaviour is a product of intelligence and both are dependent – on animal instinct.

    “Basically, someone we respect enough to let lead. I do not think there is a greater compliment that I can pay to a man than to: (1) ask him his opinion and (2) follow his advice.”

    No, no, no – on the leadership comment. Leadership is not something you can “let” someone do for you. Either you are led or you are not. The truth is though, that women like you are inherently led by men. Any woman who acts against the feminist construction called The Patriarchy, or any of its derivative, is being led by men. In fact, every single woman who thinks herself equal to men is being led by men. If you use mens achievements as the standard you need to meet or beat to consider yourself a successful woman, then you are both a foolwer of men and an unsuccessful woman. What man respects a failed woman? Men are not interested in feminised copies of men, nor are they after compliments from women who fail at being women. What they want is the praise and respect of women who succeed at being women, who are the most desirable and attractive women of all.

    Sister, you need to actually follow mens advice, not merely pass this over to him and say “give me advice that I can follow”. Take this advice: abandon feminism, and all notions that being a woman is like being a man only better, and the corrosive idea that being an intelligent, attractive, independent woman who is also pushy and hard-headed is going to find you a man of any kind (let alone one who is worthy).

    The only way to find a man who will want to lead you anywhere is to lead yourself into being a better woman.

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  50. A couple of additional thoughts occur to me:

    1. It’s a common trope around these parts: women come in here and say that we obviously hate hate hate women. I think this thread shows that’s not true. Privateman put up this post on November 1. In 48 hours his correspondent 30something has received well in excess of 50 replies from men offering her advice on what she’s doing right and wrong, and what she can do to reach her goal. People from all over the manosphere, men and women both, nearly all of PM’s regular readers, have chimed in and offererd their help. She has been subjected to some withering criticism, but she has not been made a target of hate or derision or scorn.

    We want women to succeed. We want women to get what they want out of relationships. But it’s not a zero-sum game. And less and less, those relationships (whatever form they take) will not serve exclusively the female imperative.

    2. 30something, this is addressed to you. We do not hate you. We want you to find a good, decent man to whom you’re attracted, fall head over heels in love with him, pledge your life to him and stay with him for as long as you both shall live. I think you want that, and we want it for you. We want you to reach your goals for a relationship with a man, whatever those goals are.

    But respectfully, your response which you’ve posted here is discouraging. Men have come here and told you the God’s honest truth. The truth is that what you’ve been doing isn’t working. You’ve come here asking for a bit of advice, and you don’t like it because it’s not what you wanted to hear or what you thought you would hear.

    The men here seeing right through your career grrrrl/ strongindependentwoman (TM) act has really taken you by surprise. But instead of trying to listen, trying to see things a different way, and most importantly, attempt empathy with the men you’re trying to attract, you instead insert your fingers into your ears and sing “lalalalalalala I’m not hearing you!!” You instead insist on foisting upon an uncaring audience your explanations, your justifications and the feminist shibboleths and half-truths your sociology and political science undergrad professors, and then later your law professors, crammed into your head. You instead stamp your feet: “But, but, but…. NO! Guys love strong women! Guys love independent women who make their own money! I’m attractive because I’m a lawyer and I have great work/war stories to tell! I’m funny and intelligent and educated and I’ve traveled to all these cool places, and that makes me HOT! And guys don’t care about how many men I fucked! That’s so old fashioned!”

    30something, listen. The fact that you’re here means you’re at least willing to listen.

    Now you must be willing to let go.

    You must face the truth. And then you must embrace the truth.

    You must be willing to jettison what clearly isn’t working and try something that might work.

    Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to at least TRY?

    • Yes. I’ve been reading this thread with interest as it’s been developing.

      She asked for advice and she got it. She got some harsh criticism as well. It’s to her credit that she came here in the first place. She took the first step and now she should follow through on it if she wants to change her life. Changing isn’t easy.

      To our lawyer friend,

      Law school surely presented its share of difficulties, but you made it though. You graduated and found a position at a law firm. Doing so took work as well, but you did it. Now consider the difficulties you faced in launching your career alongside the difficulties you’re facing with bettering yourself and meeting quality men. There is no quick fix here. I can’t add too much to what’s already been said, but I do have some questions for you:

      What’s stopping you from baking cookies and having your house smelling nice right now? Why would a man need to enter into the equation?

      What does “ruthlessly independent” mean to you? As a grown woman, I would expect you to be self-sufficient and able to handle your personal affairs. Because of how often you reference your independence, it seems like a relationship would strip some of that away. Moreover, repeatedly talking about your “independence” does indeed put men off. A man hearing a woman talking about how independent and awesome her life is would think “great, where do I fit in?” and would wonder about ever getting more than leftover scraps of your time.

      Others have said it, but it bears repeating: What can you offer a man? What goes beyond what a man can get from his family and friends?

      Best of luck to you.

  51. Responses like 30something here demonstrate so clearly just how dysfunctional this sexual market place is. It’s also why I asked PM if any of this advice is actually working. I have to take PM at his word since he’s doing a lot of advising and he’s a blogger I respect highly. But I do have to wonder sometimes whether any of this is doing any good. 30something comes here asking advice, and receives a truckload of excellent pointers. Commenter after excellent commenter has come here over and over again, patiently and painstakingly pointing out what she is doing wrong and right, explaining how men work, and the true dynamics of male-female relationships. And yet 30something simply replies with what amounts to “Hey men whose advice I asked — you are all stupid and you don’t get it and I’m strong and independent and smart and that makes me hot and I am a great catch and you all don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.”

    This kind of thing makes me think we waste our time with advice sometimes. Casting pearls before swine and all that. For both men and women: There comes a time when you’re willing to accept and integrate advice into your life, and you actually take action to make your life better. Until that time comes, it’s really just talk talk talk. If 30something wants something better or more than what she has, she will have to make changes in her life. They might be drastic changes. So the question really is, 30something: how important to you is finding love? Are you willing to do what it takes?

    30something is wasting her time and ours if she is looking for affirmation or validation. We need to be about change, and not about expending time trying to help people who don’t want to be helped, but instead just want someone to bless what they’re already doing.

    • Looking Glass on said:

      The repeated instruction is necessary. I recently heard someone claim that children have to hear “No” 3000 times before they believe it, and that’s in a particular situation. He’s a father of three, and concurred.

      It probably carries over to adults. So we’re just in the process of giving 30Something the necessary 3000 No’s before she can believe it.

      That being said, it may well be that 30Something is too old and settled in her ways for the advice to effect the necessary change. Interested’s “setting cement” simile applies. Particularly as she’s left it way too late.

      This article talks of “Naomi is an attractive 28-year-old PhD student. She has been in a relationship with her fiance for six years.” Her fiancé is a thirty-something professional male being pursued by all kinds of thirty-something professional females. But Naomi had already snapped him up by the age of 22, at least ten years before her rivals even began to think of settling down.

      And let’s face it. A feminist, female lawyer is unlikely to even think about changing the fundamentals of her life until it’s already become plain to her that she’s lost in life, with no recourse of her own. That means she’s hit the wall hard so hard her rationalization hamster didn’t survive the crash.

      She can’t even achieve the results of the subject of this memorable Chateau evisceration.

      Merry douchemas! This guy looks like he’s already pre-emptively cheating on her and high-fiving his buddies about it over beers at Scores.

    • I think women should pay attention to what men say and think. I think it’s not the message, it’s how it’s delivered that’s offputting. But I suppose that’s an example right there of the differences between the way man and women communicate.
      Deti is right in what he says, and he delivers the message well. When that message is hidden in the middle of phrases about them being sluts and liars the message is lost. That’s when you are perceived as being ‘women haters’. And I’d like to think you’re talking about American not European women.

    • Deti – “But I do have to wonder sometimes whether any of this is doing any good.”
      Let me assure you without a doubt, reading what men say when they are given the chance to do so anonymously, is enormously enlightening to women if only they pay attention and take note. It does provide women with an opportunity to hear at first hand the uncensored views of men on women and how they feel about them, particularly the older ones (i.e 30+) and the overweight ones, their views on ‘pumping and dumping’, on what makes a woman a slut and how to treat her, on men’s expectations of what a woman should do for a man and how to behave if she doesn’t etc etc. I hope women take note of the thoughts expressed and consider what the men they encounter think about them as these pages offer women an excellent insight into the mind of a man. I’ve certainly learned a lot. I’d like to say thanks -I certainly don’t look at the men I know (or thought I knew) in the same way anymore.

  52. Looking Glass on said:

    Stamp out italics!

  53. Titanium on said:

    Saying that 30something is undesirable as a human being is a bit harsh.

    I’d imagine that for 30something, this experience is similar to how a man feels when he takes the red pill for the first time. It takes time and introspection to come to terms with it.

  54. Chuck Hammer on said:

    This woman is screwed. She’s placed herself right in the middle of a demographic bulge of never-married women. It’s too late for her. This is nothing new, however. I graduated from a top business school in 1988 along with some really epic ball-busters. It’s amazing how many of those women never married. The only women from my class who did marry were the ones who were willing to abandon their careers and become traditional wives to a large degree.

    It was also interesting to see the contempt of the women in my business school class for the wives of the men in my business school class. I wonder which group of women are happier?

    Never marrieds piling up.

    “The makings of a possible spinster panic would seem to come from the way the flow of would be brides is backing up in the pipeline. Late 30s is the absolute last minute for women to expect to marry and have children. From what we have seen the husband panic tends to set in during the late 20s to very early 30s. This makes the recent rise in never married 35-39 year olds striking.”

    Marriage is bad for women.

    “Better to have her carping about why no one will man up and marry her than have her complaining about marrying you.”

  55. Clockwatcher on said:

    Men are your partners, protectors, and providers if you let them.

    Not all men in the Manosphere see themselves as potential protectors of women.

    A while back a female commenter at this site wrote that she liked to be protected by men, and one of your commenters dissed her for it with anger and sarcasm, saying something along the lines of “Can’t women protect themselves?” (I am paraphrasing, but it is an accurate paraphrase). This man appeared to have little or no grasp of the nature of masculinity and femininity (and the differences between them) beyond biological ones.

    From the above post, it appears that you do not share his views in this respect. I hope that your views on this issue, and not his, are the norm in the Manosphere.

    I don’t get much time to read here these days but I thank you for allowing me the opportunity to comment.


    Takeaway quote: “it’s an uncomfortable truth that the sort of high-flying alpha males we were all holding out for didn’t want women like us. All the successful men I know have married sweet, uncomplicated women who are happy to forfeit their careers to support their husbands.”

    • This is off-topic because Annie and Claudia Connell have fallen into different traps; but it’s here so I’ll comment.

      There are other quotes in the article by Connell that will ring bells among commenters here.

      “When it came to men, our attitude to them was the same as it was towards the latest must-have handbag: only the best would do, no compromises should be made, and even then it would be quickly tired of and cast aside.”

      This is a concise description, in female-friendly language, of riding the alpha cock carousel.

      “I was part of the Sex And The City generation — successful, feisty women who made their own money, answered to no one and lived life to the full.”

      SATC deserves a post in its own right. It was great entertainment, but as a blueprint for a lifestyle choice it was toxic.

      Why? Here’s a clue: the show’s ratings fell when the women visibly aged, and the series was canceled; in the same year, a new show started whose stars were four young women of high sexual market value (“Desperate Housewives”). Now that those women have aged too, “Desperate Housewives” has been canceled and, as if by magic, another series about the sex lives of four attractive young women is on our screens (“Girls”).

      In SATC, the “correct” way for the story to end, when Carrie Bradshaw was too old to attract viewers’ interest, was by her marriage to a tall, good-looking, wealthy man. The female viewers loved it and identified with it, but the story had long ceased to be realistic and had entered the realms of wish-fulfilment.

      I didn’t watch every episode, but in the ones I did see, “Big” had no personality. He was someone who looked good on Bradshaw’s arm: someone who would enhance her status by making her friends jealous. He was a cardboard cut-out with a wallet and dildo attached.

      It is tragic, absolutely tragic, that so many women bought into the SATC lifestyle, because in real life the chance that this way of life will lead to an outwardly enviable marriage, let alone a happy one, are slim.

  57. Clockwatcher on said:

    Takeaway quote: “it’s an uncomfortable truth that the sort of high-flying alpha males we were all holding out for didn’t want women like us. All the successful men I know have married sweet, uncomplicated women who are happy to forfeit their careers to support their husbands.”

    This lady, Claudia, and her friends may be “holding out” for high-flying alphas, but I am a professional around Claudia’s age and have never met a woman like hClaudia or her friends. Perhaps they are so narcissitic as to think all females think like they do. Well – they are quite mistaken if this is the case.

    Specifically, straight off my head – of the married females I work with who are quite high up or at least stable in the corporate world, one manages a sports store, another is a stay-at-home dad, two are knowledge workers lower on the totem pole than their wives, and yet another is in fieldword in the oil business (and makes less money than his wife). Another is married to a high-school math teacher. One is married to a man with his own plumbing business. Most of these women have very young or primary-age schoolchildren and have very close-knit families. The smartest man I know who is currently ascending the corporate ladder (and will get to the top, I am sure of it – he is that gifted) is married to a long-time stay-at-home mother with a college degree who, as her children leave primary school, is trying desperately to get back into the workforce. He is supporting her in this endeavor because he loves her, is concerned for her well-beling, and wants her to be at peace with herself so his family will continue to thrive.

    One female MD I know who is both attractive and feminine told me recently she hadn’t had a date in over two years. Accordeing to her, the male MD’s all like to “chase” the nurses, but ignore the female MD’s. She told me she was looking for someone compassionate (concerned for social justice and not just making money) and not arrogant and who, like her, loved the arts and reading. She never mentioned what his income and profession shoudl be. On this basis I took steps to set her up with a brilliant young writer/filmmaker of my acquaintance in her age group has a day time desk job (reasonable income but not spectacular) to support his art. She was very enthusiastic when I told her about him. She never even asked about his appearance – instead, our converstaion about him focused on his myriad creative talents, intellectual gifts, and his kindness (he is a friend of mine and has these virtues in abundance) The blind date never happened though because around the same time she met and started dating an actuary with whom she is getting on really well. The MD has spoken with great enthusiasm, and hope (she is hoping to marry and have children some day) about his intelligence, warmth, lack of arrogance, and character – and has never mentioned his salary (which is undoubtedly less than hers), although she did mention how much he loves the theatre and hates political corruption. And oh – she is blonde, petite, late 20’s and quite desirable (about a “9”).

    In short, when I look around me I do not see hypergamy or desperation that I read about so often at the Manosphere sites or in the Daily Mail (which I read regularly).

    All my evidence is anecdotal, but it has been gathered over nearly two decades in the corporate world, and is real and concrete. When what I see around me does not fit with what I am being told is happening out there by Manosphere men I feel compelled to speak up. Maybe it’s in the elite places like elite law firms, elite accounting firms, consulting firms, etc in cities like LA and New York that this hypergamy thrives(?). These aren’t circles most of us ordinarily full-time female workers, including white collar workers, frequent. Perhaps these hypergamous women that are cited here so often are simply very self-indulgent people who have always been self-indulgent. Single men who wish to avoid them should be looking at women who are concerned with deeper things. They are all around you, and some of them are single.

    • Cail Corishev on said:

      Hypergamy isn’t about salary; if it were, women would never go for the starving artist or just-released-from-Joliet types. It’s about status. Yes, a high salary can add to a man’s status, but it’s not enough by itself, and a man who exudes status in other ways doesn’t need money to attract women. At best, a high salary is the cherry on top of the sundae a woman’s already decided to eat.

      Many career women, though, filter out a lot of men based on salary, because they think it matters to them. So they never meet the plumber who could make them happy, because he doesn’t go to the wine bar and hip disco they frequent because they heard that’s where the eligible doctors and lawyers are. With online dating it’s even worse — she immediately filters down to just the guys who are 6′ tall and have six-figure salaries, and then can’t figure out why they’re so rare and so much more in demand than she is.

      Yes, there are exceptions that prove the rule. There always are. But if they weren’t exceptions, we wouldn’t be seeing the articles about all the Sex In The City clones unable to find men all of a sudden. (And your MD friend who sounds obsessed with politics and “social justice” better be a 9 if she’s going to get a guy to put up with that.)

      • Clockwatcher on said:

        There always are. But if they weren’t exceptions, we wouldn’t be seeing the articles about all the Sex In The City clones unable to find men all of a sudden.

        Cail Corishev,

        Just because something appears in a news paper article frequently does not make it true or “the rule.” You can find just as many articles in places like the Daily Mail about women fleeing abusive relationships with male partners, or male boyfriends who abuse or kill the small children of their girlfriends. Does this make this type of situation “the rule” rather than the exception also because it gets written about frequently? If you are going to apply this kind of logic it must apply equally even to notions which you find personally ridiculous or distasteful.

        (And your MD friend who sounds obsessed with politics and “social justice” better be a 9 if she’s going to get a guy to put up with that.)

        Not all men think like you about this issue. You are projecting your value system onto men in general – this is not logical at all. There are many fine men who have devoted a big chunk of their lives for fighting for “social justice.” A young male MD I know just returned from Africa where he did medical missionary work; He is now doing a lot of soul searching about how he wants to apply his academic gifts in the world at large. Does he want to go back to the Third World, or to an inner city in the West where people have inadequate access to health care? This young man is the son of a man who also spent several years as a teacher in Africa before returning home to the West. “Social justice” was a big part of his moral makeup, and the apple has not fallen far from the tree in that respect. Moreover many well-known men in history did similar, and even gave their lives for such notions – Fr. Damian of Molokai, for instance, or James Connolly, an atheist and trade unionist who organized the Irish Citizen Army and was executed by the British in order to free the horrifically poor of Ireland from colonial oppression. And there are many other find men throughout history who did similar.

        Again, you may speak for many men (and perhaps most in the Manosphere? Who knows) but certainly not all – and you shouldn’t need me to point this out to you. Some men, despite sharing your male biology, are concerned with very different things than you are.

        My MD friend is not looking for a man like you, obviously. She would not be attracted to your value system, for one.

    • The women you are talking about probably all settled as their biological clocks wound down. They still have “very young children”. Check back with us in 15 years when the majority have divorced their “loser” exes.

    • Clock:

      From your description, your blonde, petite female M.D. friend is looking for a wife, not a husband.

      • Clockwatcher on said:

        I disagree, Deti – she is looking for a masculine man who wants to lead a family. Men who love the arts and/or are distinguished in them, and who care about the larger community (and not just themselves and their own family and their own personal “needs”), can be very masculine and excellent leaders in the home. Some are even combat veterans with awards for extraordinary bravery in battle. I speak from experience.

        You have your own experiences of course and are entitled to your view. If we disagree, so be it.

    • I believe you; but your experiences are not the same as everyone else’s.

      My own take is that female hypergamy is real, and in Western societies it follows the pattern described in the manosphere. It is the parallel of men’s polygamous desire for immediate sex with every woman who is sufficiently young and attractive.

      However, this is not the whole story. Most men quickly learn to control their polygamous sexual desire, and are better for doing so. Likewise, most women control their hypergamous desire, because they quickly learn that they want more from life than a ride on the cock carousel.

      Many of these people will end up happily married to each other. They will not be frequent visitors to the manosphere, or have a particular concern with any aspect of gender politics.

      A person who is still dating past 30 will run into a host of problems that people who married young will not recognize. Of course the old saying that “all the good ones are taken” isn’t true, but it does have a grain of truth in it: a lot of the “good ones” have been removed from the “dating pool”. Also, the ones who cannot hold down a relationship will keep re-entering the dating pool, which will therefore be skewed towards the emotionally illiterate.

      When I was a bit younger I would gladly have married a woman like the ones you describe. I couldn’t find one. I don’t mean that I couldn’t find one who would have me, I mean literally that I did not meet a mid-thirties single woman without children who was yearning for marriage. Actually, I did meet one, she was an unreformed party girl who in the year that I knew her had relationships with four different men. I settled for a divorcee who had completed her family (I am sticking my neck out here, because the regular readers of this blog will immediately deride me as a beta chump). My point is, I believe what you have written, but I don’t believe it is the whole picture, any more than the notion of unrestrained female hypergamy is the complete picture.

      “Single men who wish to avoid them should be looking at women who are concerned with deeper things. They are all around you, and some of them are single.”

      Tell us where to find them and we’ll go.

      The trouble is, so will the players and scaries that these women want to avoid, and so your advice will be self-defeating. There’s another saying that describes this problem. “Lonely men go to bars; lonely women stay at home. They seldom meet.”

      • Clockwatcher on said:

        A brilliant post James, and one of the best and most balanced I have ever read in the Manosphere. Where to meet this women? I know a couple of them! They are asking the same thing – “where can I meet a man like James?” I think luck comes into it a great deal. And many times, when two good people find each other, they tend to forget that others with similar views have not been as lucky and they do not actively help their friends out by introducing them to potentially compatible mates. I like to play “matchmaker” as I desribed in the above post when I meet a quality person who is single and looking, whether male or female, and know a potential match. I will take the initiative and suggest a “fix up” without the person even asking.

        I look forward to reading more of your posts.

  58. Clockwatcher on said:

    I also want to mention one more woman I know – a knowledge worker who married a divorced man with two young children. He had been put through the wringer, destroyed both financially and emotionally, by the barbaric family court system, losing all his money and custody of his children when his then-wife ran off with another man. The woman who married him gave her savings to support him in the court battle and moved across the country in order to marry him and help him fight for, and raise, his two children. As he was both (a) struggling to find full-time work which would give him the flexibility to fight for custody of his children and parent them (he had to fly across long distances in order to see them), his new wife, their stepmother, worked full-time and gave up most of her salary to fund the continued court battle and very taxing custody arraggement. She also gave up the chance to have a child of her own because no money would have been left for day care after court battles, flight expenses, hotels, etc.

    Of the people who enabled this horror story, many of them, including the boyfriend with whom the mother ran off and the social worker he allowed the children to be taken off him, and the solicitor who allowed his home and savings to be trained by the former wife and her new “partner” — nearly all of these collaborators were MALE. The one person carring the can to keep this family together and grasp his hand to prevent him from drowning in this vortex of corruption and destruction of family was his wife and the stepmother of his children – a WOMAN

    The family courts are a horror story for men it is true. But is often times OTHER MEN who are the collaborators in allowing the destrucing of vulnerable fathers. An in this case, it was one woman – not a weatlhy woman, just a white collar office grunt — who through her sacrifices ensured that those two children knew and had a relationship with their father. She is now a widow with no children of her own, and according to the Manosphere, has low SMV simply because of her age (children are in college and she is now middle aged). She loves her stepchildren and does not regret the sacrifice, but when she reads at the Manosphere how all women are selfish harpies it is like a knife to her heart. She misses her husband and fears she will never have a family (meaning a husband) again. And she wonders how so many people, including men, sat back and allowed his life and the life of his two young children to be ripped apart by judges, lawyers, a boyfriend, and indifferent friends and family until she came along.

    Real people’s lives – both of men and women – and which gender wears the black hat and which the white, is far more complicated than is represented at the Manosphere.

    • Clockwatcher on said:

      I would like to express my apology to the readers and PrivateMan for all the typos and grammatical errors in my posts today. I am relatively new to WordPress commenting and getting caught up in the pathos of the situation about which I was writing, I did not proofread properly, was was not considerate. I hope nonetheless that the story of what happened was clear. If I comment here again I will make sure to proof carefully before I post.

      I hope we can all agree that mistakes are less of a problem when we take responsibility for them, and take steps to not repeat them in the future.

    • Cail Corishev on said:

      I’m not sure what part of the manosphere you’ve been hanging out in, where all this is being blamed on women. Stick around and you’ll hear about “manginas”: men who use their authority to support feminism and tear down other men, like those family court judges. You’ll hear about how the most high-status men love feminism and what it’s done to society, because it’s provided them with an endless string of hypergamous women competing for their attentions. You’ll probably even hear conspiracy theories about how this was all arranged by the Rockefellers (the males, presumably) or the Jews or something. The manosphere I’m familiar with has a much more nuanced viewpoint than the one you suggest.

      • Or Bernanke.


      • Clockwatcher on said:

        Cail Corishev,

        I have been hanging out at different sites, including this one. Ridiculing anyone who points out NOWALT is a recurring theme at almost all of them, whether explicitly or implicitly. And these same men are often ones who want to take personal credit for the male gender for any great accomplishment to men, yet who conversely say that crimes committed by men have nothing to do with the male gender. They practise NOMALT when it suits them, yet laugh at NOWALT. The hypocrisy stinks to high heaven. These men are as irrational in many respects as the feminists they claim to despise!

        I believe in individual responsibility, which means I embrace both NOMALT and NOWALT (and judge people as individuals), so I am speaking generally and not saying “all men in the Manosphere are like that.” But truly, I am not impressed with much of what I see in the Manosphere, despite the fact that I agree with so much of what is written in it.

        We probably hang out at similar places in the Manosphere but our interpretations of what we read are quite different. Because I am the outlier here however does not make you right and me wrong.

      • Cail Corishev on said:

        But truly, I am not impressed with much of what I see in the Manosphere, despite the fact that I agree with so much of what is written in it.

        I can’t argue with that. I cringe a lot of times when I see good points made, but wrapped in language or mixed with other ideas that I know will drive away 90% of the people who need to hear the good stuff. Fortunately, today there are plenty of sites like this one that approach the subject with decency, so I don’t have to frequent the other kind.

    • Not all women are selfish harpies, but there are enough of them that men need to be careful. And yes, plenty of men are entrenched in the family court system, and there are plenty of male pieces of shit out there.

      The manosphere has different parts to it… there’s the MRM, MGTOW, game, PUA. This blog is more about game which is, in my eyes, a way to maintain attraction with women. This particular post is the opposite: what men are attracted to in their women.

      Men are pretty simple. Look good, be happy, respect me and don’t make my life hard are the basics of what a man wants.

      Women are different, and most men don’t understand this. It makes them seem complex and irrational. We’ve been brought up for 50 years with the message that men and women are the same. It’s simply not true. Women are more about feelings, while men tend to ignore feelings in favor of rationality. Game is a rational approach to generating feelings in women, which is something that most men would otherwise never try to do because it’s a foreign concept to them.

      There are plenty of men in the manosphere who have been burned by women. Some are jaded and may even appear misogynistic, but they are here because they have faith that there are good women out there. They have realized that they need to change their strategies away from the stupid crap that society shoved down their throats as they were growing up. In many respects, they are taking responsibility for their own actions which were caused by them buying into the lies of feminist society, and they want to do it right in the future.

    • CLock:

      In addition, you’ll also hear about White Knights: men who see themselves as saviors of women, mostly for the purpose of proving their masculinity so the women they are saving will become sexually interested in them. White Knights see themselves as wearing their shining armor, galloping up on their trusty steeds and rescuing the woman from the terrible predicament she always seems to find herself in — whether it’s from running out of gas, or needing someone to lift that heavy box, or drinking too much, or paying for that abortion, or locking up that man who she had drunk sex with and now says she was raaaayyyped.

      • Clockwatcher on said:


        I have read all about “White knights” according to the Manosphere. This is one of the places where the Manosphere is on the wrong hop IMO and suffering from a serious dose of cognitive dissonance.

        If men “White Knight” to attract only HB’s who want to “ride the carousel” then they deserve what they get. But if they are seeking a quality woman, well…White Knighting is an effective way to go to find such women. Feminine women love to be protected and cared for by men who exhibit manly gestures. I could say more but I will keep my secrets for the moment. Since this is primarily a game blog, however, the contempt shown for White Knights is understandable. As is often the case, “context is everything.” (LOL)

    • Of course, this is true. There is a real problem of understanding here. People of both sexes report horror stories about their divorce. But somehow, no one says “when I divorced my spouse I made sure I really screwed them over for money, access to the kids, and criminal charges”. Sometimes it is because they do not see things that way, but more often it is because the party that comes out on top remains silent, especially if they won by unscrupulous means.

      So, if you mostly talk to divorced men you will hear a lot of bad things about women; and vice versa. The only people who see both sides are the lawyers, and they will keep their mouths shut as long as the money keeps rolling in.

      Women suffer greatly when they marry and divorce a “bad boy”: a man who lives on the edge of the law, has no income, and cannot be gouged for maintenance. Well-meaning people decide that we should make the law tougher on men, but of course this does not help in extracting resources from delinquent men, it is the law-abiding, gainfully employed ones who get screwed over. The manosphere complains about this, and rightly so.

    • Yes. Those men are white knights and manginas. They are the water carriers for the feminist cause, hopelessly led around by their dicks desperately boot licking for a whiff of pussy. No one denies that there are plenty of men complicit in the feminist hegemony but, it is WOMEN who demanded these standards. It is WOMEN who demanded that there word should be all the proof that is needed against a man.

  59. Clockwatcher on said:

    Sorry – that should read “who allowed his home and savings to be DRAINED by the former wife and her new “partner”

  60. Your willingness to seek advice and change your life are in your favor.

    I agree with most of the advice that has been given on this page, but I do not agree that it has been given entirely without hate or derision or scorn – and a large dose of schadenfreude. Mostly this has happened because we make assumptions about what a single 30-something female lawyer is like, and actually we don’t know how closely you fit this template.

    Internet dating sucks. You will receive a lot of attention from men, but 90% of them will be totally unsuitable. If you are good at spotting the 10% who are worth the effort, go for it. Otherwise, try to meet men in real life, where the percentage of players and scaries is lower. If in doubt, google “edatereview” to find a site with reviews of online dating sites. Most of the reviews are by men, but if you scroll past some of them you will find there are also lots of reviews by women. Both men and women have terrible experiences with online dating. The site is a real eye-opener.

    Of the advice on this page, the best I have seen is to “get out of your comfort zone”. Your comfort zone is not bringing you into contact with potential husbands, so you need to venture out, even if it is painful to begin with. Begin new activities such as Ceroc dancing, evening classes in car maintenance or computer security, or join a social club for singles. If there is not a suitable club in your area, start one.

    Do not turn to your girlfriends for advice and affirmation. This is hard advice to take, but sadly many women do not want their friends to be happy. They certainly do not want their friends to have a “better” man than they do, and they will be quick to point out the faults of any man you introduce to them, though they may try to conceal their hostility by damning with faint praise, and other subtleties.

    Remember that the man you marry will let you down in a thousand little ways, even if he does not descend to violence, drugs, alcoholism, infidelity, or deadbeatism. If it is any consolation, you will let him down in equal measure. It is all very well being independent and strong, but are you willing to compromise, especially over things that are unimportant?

    Your emphasis on independence is troubling. It seems to me that you are still fighting a battle that was won by your mother’s generation, and maybe even by your grandmother’s. How much independence does a person need? You have more than enough, and you may need to let some of it go so you can develop other aspects of your personality.

  61. All these comments are so telling about the society we are living in right now…
    I’ll also be poolside. Budge up,

  62. Jacob Ian Stalk on said:

    @ anais

    And the reason you started typing was not to tell the sun it is hot, surely?

  63. I’m going to say this as nicely as possible, to 30-something.

    You are a “threat”, not a “catch”.

    All of your superlatives, all of your qualifications, all of the benefits that you will add to a relationship are manly, not feminine (or, given your physical condition, even explicitly female.) Just from your writing style and commentary, you display a flagrant disregard for any form of feminine behaviour. Intentional or not, you read as a breast-displaying Buck Angel. And, to be blunt, men don’t pursue amicable relationships of any sort (friendly, romantically or other) with their equals. When a human male meets a human that mirrors his personality, that person gets spotted into the “threat” category. At best, if the second person doesn’t do anything to appear as a mortal threat, the second person becomes a “rival”.

    Men don’t marry their rivals.
    Men don’t date their rivals.
    Men won’t even sleep with their rivals (barring an extreme lack of choice, such as prison or burning every single bridge in their romantic purview.)
    Men most definitely will not give anything but the most cursory benefit to their rival(s).

    And as it’s been said repeatedly on this thread: the type of men who are amenable to having deeper relationships with (in your case) male-coded female rivals get married before they turn 25. They met their Nora Charleses, Dorothy Parkers and Ayn Rands before secondary education was complete. As you’ve pointed out, the men in your area who are still available for dating and marriage are not attracted to what you have on tap. They aren’t looking for a rival with a vagina, they’re looking for a woman. They can get their “rival” fix from dozens (if not hundreds or thousands) of the men in their environment. Risking their families, children, money and reputations on the off chance that a person who is triggering their “rival recognition brain code” won’t stab them in the back is foolhardy.

  64. Speaking of a 30something single professional woman with no understanding of the dating market place, has anybody seen DateMeDC’s OKCupid profile?

    She’s on the market again. Instead of blogging about all her dates she’s doing stand up comedy:

    • 1} She says how nervous [intimidated] she is.

      2} Admits she wore the dress she has on because “it made [her] boobs look good”.

      3} Asks that if the audience does not like her material they please stare at her chest [objectify her].

      And that’s just the first 13 seconds.

      Having done stand-up, myself, and being a ‘sphere regular, that was enough for me.

      • Reading her OKC profile requires a Klonopin and a whiskey chaser. She sounds neurotic, smug and overbearing. The frequent cursing doesn’t help.

        The video is another hot mess.

      • I’ve just been into her dating profile and under the tab ‘the two of us’ she has a number of pages with questions for men to answer for her to evaluate whether any are suitable. 25 actually. Not 25 questions but 25 pages of questions. 🙂

      • Click on the other vids in her YT channel. Her Ex was practicing stand up comedy and admitted he met her on Twitter. Sympathy gone. Anybody who follows her on Twitter and still dates her deserves what he gets.

        She’s the single woman who wrongly thinks she’s entitled to an Alpha but can only gets Betas.

  65. Old Glory on said:

    @Tanzi Holy crap. I have no words. I think if I saw her around DC, I would run the other way.

  66. Guy dumps her so she gets revenge by trashing him at an open mic night and posting it on You Tube. And she wonders why the best she can do is an ex drug addict living in his aunt’s basement. Karma is a bitch ain’t it, cupcake?

  67. Snowflake on said:

    30-something woman whines why she cannot find a man/bf/life partner. What NORMAL human being (man/woman) would want to risk living with a partner (like her DMDC/CapitalKatie) that is such an attention seeking, needy, volatile, no-holds barred on this thing called privacy?! She gives us normal females a thoroughly bad name, no wonder men cannot figure us out when this is flaunted all over the web in every major city… Ugh!

  68. This woman has way too much going against her. Her life circumstance, her paradigm/programming, and her cognitive dissonance is EXACTLY the type of brainwashing that the feminist movement was aiming for. I think that, sadly for her, she is on a one way ticket to lesbianism. No man wants a lesbian, but her persona is that. She is a bullet euro train out of control, hurtling towards the wall. She will resort to lesbian experimentation before her 30’s are up, because once she hits 35, it’s all over. I’ve seen it amongst so many of the women whom I grew up with. They are 40-41 and well…’s just over for them. This ‘woman’ has a very, very narrow window here, but I honestly can’t see her changing her entitled c*nt of an attitude.

    Also, any man who would date a female lawyer is well and truly asking for it. F*ck that sh*t.

  69. As for DistrictKatie. I am 12 years older than her and look about about 5 years younger. She is a 4 at the most.

  70. Pingback: Oh, Another Hater Comment! « The Private Man

  71. Let’s say that it really is as simple as “the clock is ticking” (and you guys just may be right on the numbers). That seems like even less of a reason to worry myself overly. Why would I even bother… wouldn’t my “catch” either leave me, or only stick around because he feels obligated? Both sad outcomes, really. If it’s such a “buyer’s market” what would be the point of killing myself trying to get my hands on a guy, as if he were the last item at one of those crazy Black Friday sales people get trampled at? I do notice that a lot of women let themselves go (fat, not put together, etc…). Not attractive. And neither is “I am woman hear me roar” diatribe. That said, being educated actually improves your chances at marriage. No need to be bitchy about it though. But yeah – the top tier guys often expect, and can get the whole package, and you can’t blame them. In other words, smart, educated, with a high income. As for some guys having unrealistic expectations, there are a lot of paunches out there… Call me shallow, but I’m in great shape, so no way! Bad hygiene? Happens more than it should. And the 40 year old who is the “exception to the rule” hitting on girls in their 20s? Just stop it. We do like guys a bit older, so be thankful, but don’t push it – those 20-something hotties aren’t all hot and bothered unless they think you’re a meal ticket, so go abroad to places where the women are poor if that’s your thing. Anyway, the few happy, truly long-term (and I mean *really* long term) couples I know… it’s not all luck, but there’s definitely an element of luck in initially meeting someone you could go the distance with, for both men and women. I know my problem – I’m quiet and weird (as opposed to charming and quirky), it would be a miracle for me to meet the right match. It’s not what most guys are into and I actually get that – but it does bother me that people seem to be trying to work women into a panic. Being single isn’t even close to as awesome as being with the right person, but it beats chasing after the wrong ones… The girls I feel the worst for are the “carousel” girls mentioned in previous posts. I actually really like the imagery one poster used “it leaves a stain on the soul”. I absolutely think that’s true for women. Very few women can just sleep with men and not have something happen emotionally.

  72. On the theme of having lots of partners and what it says about someone, and what it actually does to them – I wouldn’t want a complete man-whore myself… Men are different than us when it comes to sex, not as “mpressionable, but if I had the inkling that he was a player who’d been with scores of women, I’d wonder if he had a strong need to prove himself. Not good.

  73. Re DistrictKatie – I watched her standup and read her profile.
    She’s unwifeable, but I feel sorry for her and her ilk. She’s one or two generations too late to be a good, cookie-baking Iowa mom like her mother and grandmother, but her nature is the same as theirs. She’s just spent a decade on the carousel, following the script handed to her, and is waking up to realise that all of that rehearsing for real life was in fact the main event.

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