The Whining
Red Pill men face an enormous dilemma. There are many things that have a negative impact on guys, personally, socially, and politically. However, men are expected to shut up about such things and take it “like a man”. Opponents to Red Pill thinking and general men’s activism will frequently rebutt with “stop whining”. Given the expectation of being stoic – and the very real biological phenomenon that men are less emotional – this can be a very effective rebuttal indeed.
It takes a thick skin and a passionate purpose to shrug of the accusations of whining. It’s difficult because when a man feels so intensely about an injustice or issue that affects him personally and he’s will to talk about it, it must be something that he is truly passionate about. With such passion, it’s not easy to read news articles and blogs that dismiss him, and all other men passionate about an issue, as a whiner.
The best approach to accusations of whining is to take action and not address it with words. Ignoring something is an action. Deleting blog comments is an action. Banning commenters is an action. Simply do not engage such accusations with words. It’s a pointless exercise and only raises frustration and anger levels. Here’s some additional advice, don’t argue with feminists or people who are passionate blue pillers.
It all comes down to this double standard:
When women express themselves about social injustices that affect women, it’s an empowering experience and they must be encouraged with support.
When men express themselves about social injustices that affect men, it’s whining and they must be shouted down with insults.
The Private Man 
I agree with this, but there is a line that gets crossed leading to the territory of actual pointless immature female-style bitching. Examples abound in the comment sections of Roissy’s posts.
Unfortunately, much of what is perceived as “whining” is a necessary part of swallowing the Red Pill; it’s actually introspection, discovery and digestion. Merely becoming aware of the issues won’t lead to a passion for the issues unless a man can relate to them personally – through past personal experience, fear for his children, or empathy for other men.
The problem lies with men who can’t or won’t take action, and instead become mired in their own pain and/or anger. Sadly, even encouragement from strong leaders won’t motivate some of the “whiners” to graduate from introspection to action.
Part of the problem is that women strong-arm their way into male spaces, leaving guys with less room to vent freely. The guys who are venting are therefore the ones who really can’t hold it in, and their complaints reek of pathos because that’s what drives the outburst.
Ran into a guy at a bar who told a bunch of lipstick feminists that “women have all the power” in society. No accusations of whining were leveled. Frame matters a lot, especially with women, because of their relatively more pronounced proclivity for consensus-building.
The blue pill men and the feminists know in their gut, in the dark recesses of what remains of their souls, that the Red Pill manosphere is a threat. They will therefore lash out with accusations and insults to try to shame, deflect, and discredit Red Pill wisdom. Attempts at humiliation and ridicule are the first choice in their arsenal.
I agree with driversuz that venting and working out the issues in forums like these are part of digesting the Red Pill, but there comes a time when you have to put that behind you.
TPM is correct that, however amusing feminist-baiting can be at times, the proper response to these attacks is to not engage with words, but with actions. Dismissing and then ignoring a feminist–or any woman who is desperately trying to get your attention, for that matter–i probably the most effective thing you can do. (cf. Game principle of the back-turn.)
Feminists, especially the radical variety, often talk about the need for “female-only” spaces where they can discuss issues in a “safe environment.” Of course at the same time they scream and rant that “men-only” spaces are discriminatory, sexist, and misogynistic. Such intense cognitive dissonance is a cancer that eats away at the ability to reason…
Yes an no.
Yes,whine and bitch in the forums. Some of these men have had some terrible things happen to them. But the reality of making change happen requires a public personna that is attractive. And an ability to work with others to make in roads. To understand opportunities when presented. Even feminism realized this. The hairy legged bra burners were in the trenches. Glamorous Ms. Gloria and the like were the public relations.
I can’t help but recall when Susan was riding high after the Atlantic article. I think the next post that she had up was an open forum for mens rights. Pretty quickly it descended into trash talking Susan, sluts and feminists instead of recognizing an opportunity and running with it. The heavy hitters should have shown up in P.R. mode not forum mode.
I don’t know if this is what you’re referring to, but, I think an argument can be made that male sexual/romantic frustration has historically been viewed as dangerous to social stability.
If society can’t, or won’t, do anything about the root causes of this frustration, then the general tendency is to suppress any expression of it, And one of the usual methods of suppressing any talk about men’s frustrations is to castigate such talk as “whining”, or other shaming terminology.
Correct. Paul Elam has written about this specific issue (the-spearhead.com/2010/09/25/shrugging-misandry/)
According to the “common consensus” in society:
A bunch of women whining = a heroic group of women are on a quest for justice
A bunch of men on a quest for justice = a bunch of losers whining
The way I respond to this is that I recognize it for what it is: insanity. Pure insanity designed to keep all men forever in gynocentric bondage. Have nothing to do with those who perpetuate insanity. Let them rot and starve should bad lack befall them.
What the hell happened with my previous comment?
It got caught in the spamminator. I’ve since adjusted its flux capacitor and your comment was displayed thusly. Management apologizes for the delay. A new spamminator is on back-order.
Whining means “feeble and undignified complaining.”
Complaining means talking about something in terms of how it hurts your feelings.
Ranting means expressing something in a very angry manner.
Whining is for children and complaining is for bitches and comedians. Ranting is for anyone but too much and you’ll give your audience fatigue.
Many people, especially strong independent women who complain a lot but not just them, sometimes don’t even have any idea that there can be any other way to debate. They are completely incapable of separating observations, causes, effects, and solutions from how it makes them feel. The idea that you simply don’t have any emotional baggage to unload is completely foreign them.
Wow. I’m so guilty of accusing people (and by people, I mean men) of this. And just today I went on a long rant about stuff that bothered me. Thanks for bringing this to light.
Wait, I always attributed this to a fundamental difference between men and women.
When I complain/vent/rant it actually changes something in me. With all the emotional crap on the table, I have room in my head to think clearly. For me, at least, complaining is a legitimate step in addressing a problem because it allows me mental space to confront it sensibly.
I always though men just worked differently, processing all the emotional crap internally and then vocalizing when they know they can directly address the problem logically.
Am I way off base?
I’ve been listening to roundabout complaints that I “whine too much” over the last year that I’ve been fighting my ex-wife in court. Having just won everything I wanted, including full custody and child support, I have to throw a hearty, bellowing, belly-laughing “fuck you!” to anyone who accused me of complaining too much about my situation.
It took a solid year of my life, several thouand dollars, and several trips to court. Including some rather jovial visits to Child Protective Services and my local law enforcement offices, denying outrageous claims and clearing my name.
I won. Because I was right the entire time. I was incredibly lucky in that the Family Court system saw things my way. Less that 5% of the men in my state win custody of their children, and I’m proud to belong to that number. If everyone who complained about the “wrong” sat silently back and shut their mouths because of some “man-up” style shaming, then nothing would ever get fixed.
It’s one thing to point out injustices and unfairness.
It’s quite another to spam comment threads with “wimmen suck!!!1!” and “hypergamous bitches!!11!!1!”. Unfortunately there is a certain subset of dudes out there who whine all the time.
Hey PM, here’s an interesting link about a girl that went along to a PUA seminar and rationalised it as ‘creepy’: http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2012/09/25/why_are_women_so_negative_about_the_pickup_artist_community_.html
A few gems:
These are the sort of repeated interactions I had with guys in the PUA community, and why I got turned against it. Once upon a time, this guy might have been a perfectly normal but nerdy guy, who could have dated online, met someone nice, got married, and been perfectly happy.
Hahaha, yeah ‘these nerdy invisible guys could have found love… but not with me, of course. Maybe to one of those online dating girls.’
If the guy from a couple of posts ago can’t get a date, how they hell are nerdy awkward guys meant to find marriage material girls online. What planet is she living on?
PUA instruction turns awkward, nerdy guys who just want a girlfriend into creepy guys who harass and insult women. And that’s not OK!
Hooboy! 🙂 Anyway you get the point. The whole article is basically another example of ‘If men aren’t born naturally charismatic, learning how is creepy’
So that’s why I’m against it. Because, beyond just giving men the courage to approach women, the instruction is harmful to the guys.
Some of my friends who were involved in the community got out of it OK, but they were probably more normally adjusted to start with.
Hahaha.. oh man. I’ve got to leave it here. I don’t want to spoil the whole thing for you.
Another Silicon Valley girl that’s full of herself. It’s easy for girls to do that in Silicon Valley: they’re like 20 nerdy guys for every girl worth dating.
I spent my twenties in Silicon Valley busting my ass at internet startups. I made my first million before I was thirty.
Do you know how many girls it got me? Zero, zip, zilch, nada, xnay.
Being a “nice guy” on dating sites like Ms. McDowell recommends? Zero, zip, zilch, nada, xnay. Without being an overconfident dickhead, it was hard even to get fat chicks out on dates.
Do you know what started to get me girls? One word text messages. Dumb routines like “the cube” and Roissy’s rose routine. Negging girls. Giving them silly nicknames like “feisty kitten”. Bouncing them to different venues on dates. NEVER taking them to dinner. Changing the conversation every time the conversation drifted to work or education. (And that’s DOUBLY true for over-educated shrews like Ms. McDowell.) Starting to touch them within the first fifteen or twenty minutes of the date. Going for the kiss before the end of the date. Leading. Swatting them on the ass.
The hamster is strong in this one. Very strong.
They have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Worse, their shaming stops blue pill guys from even looking at learning game, because they don’t want to risk creepy (heh shoutout to 60yearsofchallenge).
I wouldn’t care what these girls thought if they weren’t stopping men starved for affection from bettering themselves.
They don’t want beta men bettering themselves lest they find themselves attracted to such a man. It’s hard to police the hierarchy when the hierarchy is under the control of men.
Meggrz – “I always though men just worked differently, processing all the emotional crap internally and then vocalizing when they know they can directly address the problem logically.
Am I way off base?”
I can’t speak for all men, but I spent a lot of time ‘whining’ after finding MMSL and the ‘sphere, partly because it was a bit overwhelming and I simply couldn’t deal with the emotional trauma in my usual way. That is, I do normally process the “emotional crap” internally and then vocalize the solution with great style and panache.
When it came to the Red Pill, there was simply no way I could keep it all bottled up. I had to spew a lot out to make enough room so I could start sorting through it all. It has been well over a year, and I’m still in that process, although thankfully I’m back to containing most of my emotional baggage correctly. Understand that the Red Pill wasn’t simply a lesson in how to deal with women for me. It was and continues to be a life changing process, and as much as I believed at the start it would only help my marriage, I’m finding that it is deeply embedded in my entire life. It isn’t just a script to score with women; it is very much a way of life. Or more to the point, an attitude for living your life.
Pugsfugly – Congrats! I was fortunate that although my first marriage failed, my ex wasn’t hateful and didn’t use our children as a weapon against me. We came to a mutual decision that they would stay in my primary custody, because she was the one that wanted to move away, and our children had only ever known home to be where they were.
Stories like yours are what piss me off more than anything. Not that you won of course, but that you had to spend a year of your life and thousands of dollars to prove you were a fit parent, when it was never in question prior to your ex-wife’s suggestion otherwise. And you should be proud, I’m proud and I don’t even know you. More men should do exactly the same thing when faced with such a situation. They are YOUR CHILDREN, fight for them!
Thanks, and I know exactly what you mean. I stumbled across the Manosphere roughly three months before I left my ex-wife, and I didn’t take the Red Pill so much as I swallowed the entire bottle. It was like having my eyes pried open and clamped, like the ‘treatment’ scene in A Clockwork Orange. A complete and total worldview-paradigm shift.
It is overwhelming, and it is a great deal to process, especially since immediately after leaving, life began immitating art in some pretty disturbing ways. I went from reading about women making false allegations to being mired in them.
TedD, pretty much the same thing happened with me, my wife of 24 years became “Unhappppyy” ( Translation, ‘I’m screwing somebody ‘) and was quite happy to dump the kids on me and run. Mid life hypergamy is a strong hamster, and being force fed the red pill because of it can be brutal, better to rant/whine and get it out than blow ones brains out like a lot of guys do.
Re: that Slate article: Women are obsessed with things “just happening” and “being natural” with zero appreciation for man’s ability to change himself and the world. They see outcomes, but not the underlying processes needed to reach those outcomes, instead imagining a constant, unchangeable state of nature and taking for granted the manly acts of change, growth, creation, invention, and inspiration.
If she saw Roosh now, she would never imagine the early approaches he mentions in Bang, full of awkwardness, failure, and – most importantly – learning and growth.
Likewise, when she sees these guys, she cannot shake her current impression to see what these guys can be if they continue the process of really taking the red pill and really learning game – she sees the first weak-kneed steps of babies, and from that decides that they’re cripples who should just settle into their wheelchairs.
She doesn’t understand that when deployed with wisdom gained by practice and experience, the same things she decries as “creepy unwanted touching” and “insults” when they’re spelled out on a whiteboard end up being the spontaneous, arousing and intriguing things that “just happen” when she’s out at a bar or on a date.
And as always, she substitutes the female imperative for male desire when she limits the attendees’ reason for being there to “getting a girlfriend” – that is, forming a relationship with any female, regardless of her traits – instead of what those men are truly after: to have full access to high-quality (attractive, feminine, sweet) females.
Badger has talked about this as never ‘letting girls inside the sausage factory’. They like the end product, but are disgusted with the process to create it.
…she sees the first weak-kneed steps of babies, and from that decides that they’re cripples who should just settle into their wheelchairs.
Yes, exactly. How counter-productive is it for those guys learning how to walk hearing that it is wrong for them to try and they should just accept life in the wheelchair. Disgusting.
“she sees the first weak-kneed steps of babies, and from that decides that they’re cripples who should just settle into their wheelchairs.”
I think that’s part of it. I think another part of it is that women see relationships and sex as easy, coming naturally, simple, and uncomplicated. They don’t understand how much work and rejection men endure. And they don’t understand why men find relationships and getting sex as difficult.
Women believe that men should just “get it” and should just understand all this sex, and relationship and attraction stuff. Women don’t want to think that men need to learn the skills; they want men who know the skills already.
It’s a form of solipsism. Especially when women are younger, they have no problem getting sex and relationships, therefore, they don’t think men, for the most part have problems with this either. In fact, because men actively pursue sex, the default thinking is that men are getting more than they are. Even non alpha types.
Women think romance/love/sex is ‘easy because many(most?) of them are in the position of being relatively passive, and when one is in the position of taking the passive role, it dies seem like such things ‘just happen’, ‘naturally’. Most men do not have the luxury of being passive in the dating/courtship process, and most eventually(if not sooner) realize that they will have to actively develop some skills and be generally pro-active.
Many women seem to want to believe that men can(and should) be just as passive in the process as they themselves, are.
Pingback: Linkage Is Good For You: Septemberish | Society of Amateur Gentlemen