What’s He Doing Wrong?
My incoming mail yields greatness. This one arrived just today and I’ve posted unedited and uncorrected. So, what’s he doing wrong? This is a test. Consider his age and the nature of his out-going messages. Your comments are expected. If you don’t comment, my dog will bite you. Ta.
We all know women on dating sites get a ton of messages. However, they almost unanimously say that it’s still very difficult to find someone decent, because those messages aren’t from the “right type of guy.” Well, I’ve come to a realization: They are completely, 100% full of it, and I’ve got proof based upon my own experience.
I’m going to describe myself a little; but first, let me add in a little disclaimer to avoid any misunderstanding. I am in no way trying to imply that I’m an amazing guy every woman should be swooning over. I can’t be the judge of that; and even so, I really don’t see myself that way at all. What I’m going to tell you are just characteristics that can be picked up from my dating site profile, and elements of my conduct on these sites. I will try to keep it as objective as I can. So here we go:
-I’m six feet tall.
-I work out regularly and am in excellent physical shape.
-In my early 20’s, I have a well-paying full-time job in a highly respected field. (Income is listed at $50,000-60,000)
-On OKCupid’s MyBestFace, an app which pits your photos up against others and has people judge which are more attractive, mine are chosen the vast majority of the time. In other words, strangers have rated my photos as significantly more attractive than most.
-I don’t have any cell phone mirror pics or other forms of douchebaggery.
-I don’t have a sketchy or threatening look about me. I’m clean-cut… no facial hair, no tattoos, no piercings, etc.
-I always write with proper grammar in mind.
-When I message someone initially, I always try to start a conversation based on something in her profile. I end every message with some kind of open-ended question. I do the same throughout the convo if she responds and we start going back and forth. I never give physical compliments, make mention of anything sexual, or say anything even remotely impolite.
-I don’t message the hottest girls I can find; I message girls who are realistically cute, and who I think I’d get along with based on their profiles. I don’t believe that my standards for “cute” are all that high, as I tend to find more women attractive than my friends do.
-I only message girls within a few years of my own age.
-My profile doesn’t brag in any way, or contain any hint of negativity/bitterness. It has a playful tone throughout. It’s about medium as far as length (yea yea that’s what she said).Jaded older men probably believe that I’m the kind of guy these women devote all their attention to. Well, want to know what kind of results I’ve gotten after messaging over 100 women? Not one date. Not even a phone number. Nothing. About 70% of women ignored the initial message I sent. Of the 30% who responded, every single one either put in zero effort and basically forced me to drag her through the conversation (in which cases I gave up), or randomly bailed out of the conversation at some point (always within several messages each back and forth, because at that point I suggest exchanging phone #s/adding each other on facebook). I’ve taken a bunch of messages that resulted in seemingly interested girls ceasing to respond, and run them by a female friend, asking her “how I’m managing to scare off every girl I talk to.” She said she could find absolutely no fault with any of my messages; that I sounded fun, interesting, intelligent, and normal.
Let’s go back to the original point of contention… that girls claim to only get interest from the “wrong type of guy.” Now go back and reread the facts I listed about myself, this time with this horrible little tidbit in your mind: That person whom those facts describe… is STILL the “wrong type of guy” according to these women. Wrap your head around that one.
As I alluded to before, I am very far from a perfect person, and I make no claim of being an Adonis that every girl should want. I have no problem acknowledging that. But while I have my share of faults, none of them are really things that come through in a dating site environment. From what little info about me these women possess, I have no apparent flaws. Yet not a single one ultimately deems me worth getting to know.
I write this not to whine about my situation. In fact, I feel very lucky to have some superficial things going for me in the first place. God help the poor bastards who are 5’7”, or unemployed; I’m sure they’re discarded even more readily. I write this to give other struggling guys some perspective on the type of women they’re dealing with on dating sites. These are people who are completely and hopelessly self-deluded. They have convinced themselves that anyone who doesn’t meet their pathetically specific, unrealistic vision of Prince Charming is “the wrong type of guy.” You should not feel inadequate for being unable to gain their approval, because no one can.
The Private Man 
I can relate to this. Although I’m only 5’9″ (heh), I’m generally considered good-looking amongst my social clique and I’m employed, own an apartment, a car and have a wide variety of interests..
I’ve had only little more success than this guy on OkC, but my take on why women don’t respond to us is that they’re looking for a “fixer upper” type guy a lot of the time. They want a project. I’ve heard a few women in their late 20s say this about other guys they’re dating or interested in dating. I know, I know, if that’s their reason for wanting to date someone, that’s a really dumb reason. But it’s true.
The other possibility is that women are intimidated by his success, good-looks and excellent grammar. Maybe he needs to throw in some non-chalant like spelling errors. Roissy-style.
Who knows though! We never really know what is going on in someone’s life at any moment in time. They all could be *really* busy. ;-P
perhaps some of those girls feel he is out of their league as well.. they would never admit that.. and yes, some girls like fixer uppers
He sounds too nice. He expects a girl to engage with him in functional conversation based on similar interests and attributes on a logical level.
Make fun of girls. They love being degraded.
I’m thinking the women are the issue. 40 years ago this guy would have a steady girlfriend no problem. Women these days feel they are entitled to men that far exceed their own value. Short fat girls wanting a tall guy with a great body.
If he is really desperate he can shoot far below his level and pull fat single mothers.
Now if you want to be successful in online dating as a man you must be overly confident (cocky), say slightly offensive things to stir up emotions (gina tingle). Plus a bunch of other things ultimately to attract girls who’s notch count exceeds their own age. Better off going to libraries and picking up girls there.
My theory:
Girls are looking for Tingles, not Prince Charming. If you are Tingles, you look like Prince Charming in her eyes.
If you try to be Prince Charming, you fail. If you try to make her tingle, you win.
Case closed.
Bingo. Dude sounds too boring.
sadly you are probably right for the majority of those girls
It’s hard to say whether he’s doing anything wrong. He’s getting a 30% response rate, which I’d guess is actually pretty good. An awful lot of women on dating sites aren’t really looking for a guy at all. They’re there for the ego boost they get from constant views and messages, or so they can tell themselves they have options if their current guy doesn’t work out, or a dozen other reasons.
So it sounds like if he’s doing anything wrong, it’s in the conversation after their first response, so maybe he needs to provide a sample. His female friend’s opinion is worthless, of course; a woman with no sexual stake in you will approve of “nice” messages that a woman you’re approaching will find deadly boring. It’s the “You’re a great guy and some (other) woman would be lucky to have you” effect.
As a guess, I’d say he’s probably being too wordy and too polite (I have the same problem). “Intelligent” meaning clever is good; meaning bookish is not. He might want to try sending a few messages that seem ridiculously short, and include a neg or something mildly offensive. With a current 0-for-100 record, what’s he got to lose?
He’s getting a 30% response rate, which I’d guess is actually pretty good.
But he’s not getting any actual dates. If you can’t convert to an in person meeting, then the response rate is meaningless. Actually, it’s worse, since it’s a waste of time.
Instead of trying to get phone numbers or a new Facebook friends, he should be pushing for in-person meet-ups. If a woman won’t commit to meeting for drink, move on ‘cuz she’s just using you for attention.
“he’s probably being too wordy and too polite” +1
I’m amazed at the shit you get a response from online. There’s that famous OKC blog post about a good first method – pure bullshit.
OP: “When I message someone initially, I always try to start a conversation based on something in her profile.” – Try ignoring her profile. Try opening with something random. There’s a ton of threads on PUA forums. You can open with the stupidest shit if your profile works. If you’re opening straight up (i.e. making it obvious you’ve read her profile), make your question something random, but as if it’s a deal-breaker: “cake or pie?”, “what’s your favorite color M&M”,
“he should be pushing for in-person meet-ups” – YES! Get the digits after about 3 messages. Get a date ASAP. Run the process, tell her where you want to meet her, tell her what you’re going to do together. Here’s where having a life comes in. Buy theater tickets, or tickets to a show you want to see, or SOMETHING besides goddamn coffee, dinner & movie… ugh. BE interesting and people will find you interesting.
or randomly bailed out of the conversation at some point …because at that point I suggest exchanging phone #s/adding each other on facebook).
Mistake number 1: Don’t ask for their number unless they’ve committed to a definite date and don’t add anyone as a friend on Facebook unless you’ve been banging them for weeks or months.
Mistake number 2: you’re asking your female friend for advice.
Mistake number 3: you’re in your early 20s and fishing for dates on an online dating site. You should be out there in the offline world scoring chicks.
Now, it may be that by going for the “cute” women online that they think they’re not in your league and suspect that you’re trolling and therefore either ignore you or bail. It could also be that you’re being too polite. You’re not engaging them enough to want to know more about you. You’re trying too hard to be unthreatening, which equates to “loser.” A little edge gets her motor revving.
Finally, not having read your profile, I can’t say whether it’s the usual trite, boring resume.
Now, turn of the computer, and get out there and wow the young ladies in person…
I am the author of this piece.
Most of you have said that I seem too nice, or something to that effect… that I need to make fun of the girls or be slightly edgy to get them interested. Believe me, that is my persona in real life (or when I get comfortable with the person), but online I feel like that type of stuff is too often misinterpreted. There is no such thing as body language or tone of voice in plain text, and thus sarcasm and playfulness are often taken as just being a dick. That’s why I choose to be the “nice guy” during the initial stages.
“That’s why I choose to be the “nice guy” during the initial stages.”
And how’s that working out for you? Seriously, cocky asshole can work. Just be consistent in your profile and your emails.
“So it sounds like if he’s doing anything wrong, it’s in the conversation after their first response, so maybe he needs to provide a sample.”
In the instances that really concern/baffle me, the messages we were exchanging were REALLY long. Like, each one almost as long as the original post. I don’t think anyone feels like reading through that.
“He might want to try sending a few messages that seem ridiculously short, and include a neg or something mildly offensive.”
See… Correct me if I’m off base here, but I have this feeling that such messages only do a good job attracting hot but stupid/easily manipulated girls. I guess I’m kind of unique in that that’s not the type of girl I’m looking to date. I’d think any girl with a head on her shoulders sees that kind of stuff as pretty lame.
“Finally, not having read your profile, I can’t say whether it’s the usual trite, boring resume.”
I won’t link to my profile for anonymity purposes, but I can tell you that I 100% avoid anything even remotely cliche like the plague. If there’s anything wrong with my profile it’d be that it’s TOO different/weird.
Dude, seriously? This happens entirely too often when guys ask for advice. THEY NEVER LISTEN TO IT. Instead of picking apart everything people have said so far to make it look like you did nothing wrong, take a look at the fact they EVERY response has been telling you the exact same thing. Since your way hasn’t worked “100 times” now, you’ve got nothing to lose. Its online and its free! Give what these people are saying a shot.
Now, I honestly do believe that most women on the free dating sites are not there to hook up at all. They are simply there for the ego boost, as I think someone else already mentioned. That’s been my experience. You really should be out there instead of looking for dates behind a computer screen. If you’re as in shape and good looking and stable as you said, you’d have far better success at a bar/club/lounge/cafe etc. If for some reason, you don’t have the time and online dating is the only way, bite the bullet and pay for access to a decent dating site. No woman pays 120 bucks for six months of access to NOT hook up with someone. Dig?
In the instances that really concern/baffle me, the messages we were exchanging were REALLY long.
That’s likely the problem right there. Stop thinking logically. On the attraction/comfort balance beam, you’re providing way too much comfort far too early and killing any attraction that she might have had to start. You can’t really do the attraction part online, which is why most everyone here advocates short exchanges, maybe a short phone call if she really presses for it, but always a push for meeting in person. And that first date should be planned as short or just open-ended. Drinks or coffee.
I have this feeling that such messages only do a good job attracting hot but stupid/easily manipulated girls. I guess I’m kind of unique in that that’s not the type of girl I’m looking to date. I’d think any girl with a head on her shoulders sees that kind of stuff as pretty lame.
You seem to be taking a male approach to this and applying logical thinking to a situation where it doesn’t work. This is the same thinking of feminists who claim Game only works on damaged women with low-self esteem, when the reality is completely opposite.
Short messages don’t have to be dumb messages. The point is not to get hired in an email, but to get the interview where you can sell yourself. If your in-person skills are good then you want to get to the point where you can use them as soon as possible.
Oh, and don’t take this the wrong way, but, no, you’re not unique. The point is that you’re getting online responses but no in-person dates. If you want to chat with women online, keep doing what you’re doing. If you want dates, why not at least try some of the suggestions of the collective wisdom here?
“I guess I’m kind of unique in that that’s not the type of girl I’m looking to date. I’d think any girl with a head on her shoulders sees that kind of stuff as pretty lame.”
I’m like that too.
The conclusion im reaching is that NONE of those types populate online dating sites which is why neither you nor i can get much traction. I’d wager a high percentage of women do not take online dating seriously.. thus treat it as ego supplementation and validation.
The only thing swimming in these waters is the type of fish you don’t want to catch.
“The only thing swimming in these waters is the type of fish you don’t want to catch.”
Well, there’s that too. Someone above mentioned paying for a dating site. Free sites attract a lot of women with minimal income or 2 kids from an ex who can’t afford a real dating site.
“The conclusion im reaching is that NONE of those types populate online dating sites which is why neither you nor i can get much traction.”
They’re certainly not on OK Cupid. Go for the dating services that actually require a financial commitment (eHarmony comes to mind) – that way you’re more likely to connect with people who are actually interested in finding someone to date. The cheap/free services are not good for much more than attention whoring.
eHarmony is not really an online dating website. It’s a matching-making service that starts from the web.
The point of short(er) messages isn’t to manipulate, it’s just avoiding spending too much time on something that ultimately isn’t that exciting (exchanging emails) and to instead focus on something that is (sex and a relationship).
Although I’d argue against throwing in too many ‘ridiculously short’ messages or negs. Like I wrote in my other comment– tighten up the responses, drop discussion threads that aren’t going anywhere or can be saved for in-person conversation, and move purposefully for a date close. Take a more efficient, decisive approach and that will send the message that you’re a more efficient, decisive, active guy.
I don’t like how this guy lists his supposedly “good qualities”. That’s qualifying himself.
He complains about how the girls put in no effort – but puts in tonnes of effort himself. I don’t think he really needs to invest that much effort (or emotional capital) into online dating.
Him claiming to not give any compliments are not say anything sexual also rubs me the wrong way.
I get a decent response rate, have gotten around 9-11 numbers, of which 5-6 I can use over time.
A typical conversation goes:
‘Hey – do you jet ski?”
“Yes/No I haven’t but I’d love to/All the time”
“Come jet skiing with me sometime”
“Ok/Sure/Sounds fun/Let’s do it/Maybe”
“Can you get to (location)?”
“Yes/Maybe/etc”
“Here’s my number 000-000-0000. Text me whenever you get to (location) and I will take you jet skiing where I usually go.”
“Cool!/Here’s my number”
My profile picture shows me jet skiing, which is what I ask girls if they like to do.
The only con, is that my activity requires warm weather so I will have to find another activity sometme. Aside from that – my profile has three pictures of me in three different cities, and my about me section only says that I like traveling and learning new languages.
I put very little effort in my online dating. I am getting a reward – but it’s slow to develop because I have not yet refined my skills online.
Skype is awesome.
I’d love to see this guy’s profile.
You’re doing well to get a 30% response rate – it’s probably because you’re considered “hot”.
Yes, I used to get freaked out by the short, indifferent replies. A lot of women use a phone, not a PC, to access dating sites, so typing long messages is hard. Understandable if she is not that into you, but when she “meets” someone she likes, why doesn’t she get to a PC within 24 hours and communicate properly? Or if she is so phone-centric, give/take a phone number? If you are lucky enough to get a 30% response rate, I would expect some of the responders to follow up.
The first paragraph of this comment on “Awful Profiles By Women” sums it up:
https://theprivateman.wordpress.com/awful-profiles-by-women/#comment-12206
“What a cesspool. It’s more than apparent that the whole online dating forum is really just a video game for women. They seem to want you to “contact” them. And that’s it. Anything to keep twanging that dopamine receptor in their tiny brain to create the overall general feeling of “good mood” and false intimacy these drug and alcohol addled morons require just to get thru the day.”
That comment is a re-post from edatereview.com. It is well worth reading some of the reviews on that site, to understand how awful the online dating experience is for most people. Note the low ratings of most reviewers: 1 or 2 out of 5. One of the most promising sites, Yahoo! dating, has been absorbed into the familiar and lower-rated match.com.
Most of the reviews are written by men; make an effort to skip several reviews to find some written by women, because it is interesting that their experiences with online dating are also terrible.
I know a lot of people in real life, and it is always interesting to see someone I know on internet dating, and compare their profile with reality. Of 8 women I recognised in profiles and had been acquainted with, four were highly promiscuous, two were borderline alcoholics, and only two were people that I would have been glad to meet again. That’s a 75% psycho rate. At this point I stopped counting. However, I do still make a mental note if I see someone who I know is in a relationship. On an admittedly small sample – two – of women I know whose partners are computer-illiterate, 100% have at some point in the relationship posted a dating profile looking for another man. In case you think I am being misogynistic, I occasionally look at the men’s profiles, and I can confirm that they are just as bad as the women, though I do not check them often enough to have built up statistics based on people that I know.
On Plenty of Fish, most women have discovered the “Email Settings”, which translate into the “Must” and “Must Not” lines at the bottom of the profile. Most women check the “Must not be looking for Other Relationship” and “Must not be looking for Intimate Encounter” boxes. Almost none check the “Must not be Married” box. Some of the ones I recognised who checked this box are in the “highly promiscuous” category.
However, the most damning indictment of online dating is the response to fake profiles. Here are the results of two such experiments.
http://www.edatereview.com/0009604permalink.aspx
http://www.edatereview.com/0009595permalink.aspx
Read these and weep. And learn from the women you are attempting to communicate with, because in this case they are one step ahead of you. Most users of dating sites, male or female, will never meet anyone worthwhile that way. It’s not real. It’s not even about dating. It’s a game.
He’s early twenties. He’s running post-wall single mother game.
You’re twenty years ahead of yourself, kid. Sluts are still sluttin’. They want to make mistakes that they can eventually rectify through a relationship with you.
Give them time.
Until then:
Until then.
The system is working as intended. 30% response rate tells me there’s nothing wrong with his profile. His problem is in the messages. Profile is largely irrelevant once a girl is talking to you except to provide conversation hooks (‘I watch breaking bad’, ‘I have an awesome motorcycle’ etc).
Its common for girls to drop off randomly halfway through a conversation due to various reasons that are largely irrelevant (They got their attention fix, found a hotter guy or three, had to be committed for bi-polar therapy, butterfly flapping its wings in Brazil etc etc). Again the system is working as intended.
Ok so now is a rough system for getting dates. Research Blackdragon’s Online Dating system for a more refined version:
1) Send 3 emails backwards and forwards talking about random stuff. The point is not necessarily to run game. Save that for when she’s sitting across from you. The point is to get a date. Talk about her interests and be funny (but not tryhard).
2) On your 3rd or 4th email, at the end of your response say something like ‘Hey you seem pretty cool. We should meet up for drinks/coffee/crazy golf next week’ (In your age group I’d go with drinks or some fun activity).
3) If she goes ‘Drinks sounds fun.’ Arrange the date. If she doesn’t, she might either be an attention seeker or have too many guys in her pipeline (heh) and want to delay things until the backlog clears (This often shows up as her not getting back to you for a week after you propose the meetup). Once the time/place is locked down, send something like ‘Great, I’ll see you there. If you run into any dramas, my number is ###’.
4) 90% of the time the girl will offer you her number in return. If she does, you might want to consider ringing her up for some BS reason a couple of days before the date (‘Oh hey, I can’t make it for 6. Can we make it 7 instead? Great. So… blah blah (insert phone game here)’). I never bothered with phone game to build comfort, but I’ve heard it reduces the flaking rate.
5) Rock up to the date and run game as normal, with extra emphasis on comfort as you are currently ‘Mr Internet’ and she will irrationally assign higher potential creepiness to you than if she’d met you by drunkenly grinding up against you on a beer stained dance floor at 3am.
A common scenario is for her to sit across the table from you. If this happens, chat to her like a normal person (low key game) and suggest bouncing to a nearby bar with booths after a drink or two. Then she will likely sit next to you, providing you with the mandatory kino (touching) opportunity. If you don’t know what to do from here, online game isn’t your problem.
Ok, thats it for now. Back to work. Zug Zug.
A common scenario is for her to sit across the table from you. … Then she will likely sit next to you, providing you with the mandatory kino (touching) opportunity.
This. This is gold. I’ve learned from hard experience that dates where a table is between you and a woman usually fail. Now, if I find myself in this situation on a first or second date, I push to change venue to a place where we can sit side-by-side. Kino is the hardest part of Game for me, but when I do get it right, it’s like magic pixie dust most of the time.
Infantry, your advice is sound. The aim of making a connection online is to move it offline as quickly as possible.
Thanks. I’ve got a lot of experience online dating and the above hasn’t failed me. I hated ‘The Table’ before I figured this out. Don’t women know that they’re sabotaging the date by sitting all the way over there? Gah.
Logistics and venue selection is important. After a while you’ll make sure that there’s a bar with booths or couches nearby your meetup point. I used to pick a huge multistory pub by the river during Summer. Started at one of the downstairs bars before asking her to come upstairs to the couches out on the sunny balcony ‘for the view’. Heh. Good times.
Actually, I don’t usderstand the table thing, either – but it can work either way. Don’t sit ACROSS from her, it’s confrontational. sit NEXT to (around the corner, or at a 90 degree angle to her) instead. So, a booth where you’re across from each other is a no-no, but sitting next to her in a booth, whether just the same side of that same table, or at a round table so you’re not facing her, you’re fine.
Confrontation isn’t something most women like… (In theory, i’ve met some weirdos who shit-test and posture so much you want to beat them to a bloody pulp. My sister, for example, and girlfriend, and a few girls I went to college with… ALL ABOUT confrontation.)
He’s an early 20s guy who looks really good on paper but is looking for a serious relationship (or appears to) with a similar-aged woman *online*.
Yep there’s definitely something wrong with him. Or that’s what the chicks would think, because they’re looking to make mistakes, not meet Mr Right. He’s still the wrong type of guy.
Young fella: you’re in a fucked up SMP, you gotta act a little fucked up else the babes get suspicious.
David DeAngelo made numerous video series and became rich off one mantra. “Attraction isn’t a choice”. This guy isn’t succeeding because he’s logically trying to make girls like him, rather than speaking in their language. You need to stir emotions. He sounds like a great catch, but he also needs to learn the science of what attracts women and makes them feel desire.
Start here:
http://3rdmilleniummen.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/you-need-to-stir-girls-emotions/
I agree with most comments here. It’s not that tough to get a coffee date from OKCupid. Dealing with ridiculous expectations and the harsh nature of Dating 2.0 in real life is the pain.
Personally, I’ve found that upping the jackass factor, putting up the shirtless photo, and teasing girls is more effective than being genuine.
I get dates and sufficient sex from OKC that way. Still, my best dates are the girls I meet in real life- at bookstores and on the street.
Sure, you can be genuine underneath your aloof alpha personna, but keep it to a minimum. Women want fiction– Gina tingling fiction. james bond shit… Drop your dong in her face by Date 3, or you’re making yourself miserable.
“Where are the quality girls who are girlfriend material?” you say? quality is so rare, so don’t hold your breath waiting.
Be happy about your own life, and don’t worry about women. there’s no shortage of them.
Maybe he should wear an eye patch?
I appreciate everyone’s input. The issue I have with the consensus here is this: In all of my exchanges with women on dating sites, one thing has always held constant–I am joking around more than she is. I know I don’t sound like it in the original thing I wrote nor in these comments, because I’m trying to convey ideas of substance… but in my profile and messages, a lot of what I say is whacky and/or tongue-in-cheek. Examples: I exchanged a bunch of messages with a girl about setting up our own colony on the moon. My profile says that I’d like to become a nudist some day.
To the contrary, I’m sure you’ve all noticed that women’s profiles are usually very dry and serious “I’m a laid back, family oriented girl, looking for a great guy I can share a connection with, blah blah blah.” And most message in pretty much that same tone. I feel like if I go even further toward making everything a joke, I become essentially a stand-up comedian. Thoughts?
You might not know this, due to the nature of your questions here, but the vast majority of women are boring as fuck.
As in, unbelievably more boring than men, as a group.
You have two basic options: aloof, mysterious, serious guy; entertaining, interesting, colorful guy. Pick one, otherwise they get confused and will assume you’re gay/creepy/psychopathic/something else they call what they can’t easily understand.
As a general rule, putting in more effort than she is discouraged.
Dial back the humour. One of the best game lines I ever heard about your problem was this: “The clown doesn’t get laid.”
Odds are decent that if she’s responding, the humor has done its job. Tone it down a bit and make a move to arrange a date assuming you are still interested. (You may want to ask her some qualifying questions to that end.)
All girls deep down believe they are entitled to Arnie in his prime. So unleas you’re Arnie gou can’t be mr nice guy. I know i was mr nice guy, and i’m talled than you and would routinely get compliments about my looks in real life. And still for a while grinding celibacy. My former roomate would have girls aproach him based on his model looks, and the nice guy routine would suck the life out of the interaction. Looks matter but being a nice guy is pure poison these days, nothing can overcome it. Look at Robert Patterson, Mr. Situational Alpha with the Beta heart.
No more mr nice guy, the world left him behind. Our choice is evolve or die.
Dude face it you just aren’t a badass motherfucker like I am. Your profile is likely boring. Your age actually isn’t helping either. No chick wants to date a young 20something guy. Even 20something girls don’t.
Here’s what chicks want, you ready? Wit and humor. Of which I’m assuming you have none because of what you said about your luck on that site.
I get messages from girls DAILY and I can’t even keep track of how many messages I get. I think my mailbox is full. I never write them back because I got so much crap going on in my life.
But don’t pat yourself on the back and try to gauge this as some kind of “proof” that women don’t like a “great guy”. I don’t want to be a dick but quite simply you just simply aren’t what they want.
See here’s what you aren’t understanding about girls: They want the badboy and the responsible man. If you are too much of the two (you seem more of the latter), then you become more unattractive by the majority of women. It’s meeting that happy medium.
Here’s my profile in case you think I’m pulling your leg:
http://www.okcupid.com/profile/idontlikehiking/
When I was in my very early 20s I really struggled in clubs. Now I can’t remember a time I went out in the last few years without picking up at least one quality girl. Alphaness and game have helped immeasurably.
Swallowing the red pill found in these posts will really help accelerate the process: http://3rdmilleniummen.wordpress.com/2012/07/05/five-of-the-best-manosphere-posts/
I feel like I am in a similar situation, with a twist:
Late 20 something guy in good shape (could be more muscular but I am an ectomorph), MA and tier 1 MBA with a demanding (70h per week) but very well paid job. I would also claim I do have at least some LTR game (at the very least, I managed to stay in 7 year, mostly cohabitated, relationship with a 7.5-8 until last year) and I am definitely not beta in the sense that pedestalize women or anything like that (except in the very rare cases when I develop a crush).
Unfortunately, I have crippling approach anxiety (primarily with woman, but it’s really a case of broader avoidant personality elements which I have been trying to treat with medication on and off) that is so bad that I cannot even push myself to use online dating (which apparently does not work too badly around here, my two year younger brother seems to have gotten a pretty solid LTR out of it). Anything I can do (besides the “just get over it” we can read in any book)?
I know where you’re coming from nupnupnup.
Instead of “just get over it” (which might be the stupidest advice ever, as you’re obviously aware) — how about deliberately NOT getting over it? That is, feel the fear but do the deed anyway. The anxiety can come along if it wants, but you’re going to do it anyway. That’s just one possible approach.
Your avoidant personality traits have helped you to not be beta. If only there were some surefire way to translate it into alphaness.
I’ve been on various meds myself, and tried therapy both professional and do it yourself. The only thing that even began to budge me out of my avoidance was DBT (which was originally developed for borderline chicks – how’s that for irony). But a guy named Marra wrote a book on using DBT for anxiety and depression and it has been useful. It’s really just cognitive therapy matched with mindfulness.
Don’t wait too long to make your life what you want it to be.
Doesn’t just doing it anyway equal to getting over it? I am also not sure whether its anxiety that is stopping me.. I remember taking Valium at one point and while that sure as hell nuked the anxiety, it did not make me any less avoidant.
As for the CBT/Mindfulness combo, that seems like the best option all around (there’s a couple of books about it now) but I for my life can’t get into the mindfulness state.
Anyway, as the current med only sort of works (it makes me calmer alright, but it also causes a bunch of annoying side effects), I’ll go see a psychiatrist next week. I am also wondering whether I am not suffering of a bizarre case of ADHD-PI – THAT at least would be reasonably easy to address (and lack of dopamine might explain a whole bunch of other things, too, unfortunately, my GP does not simply let me try a decent stimulant to see without going through the somewhat silly motions of getting ADHD tested)
Try this: pick a few and throw back a bomb. 10-word response max, totally a slap, but definitely connected to her profile. If she responds, you have now set a frame that can carry you for a while. Other than that, like others have said, get off the internet and meet women for real. Develop your social skills with purpose, you’ve got plenty of years ahead of you. By the time you’re 35, you will have made VP and gotten tons of women to boot.
I haven’t bothered with online dating. I’ve had better luck just meeting women publicly or being set up by the wives of friends I have. But it seems like there are two forces coming into play here.
First, as commented on by many people here, many of these women have an inflated sense of how special or hot they are. They look in the mirror and see perfection. Our society tells them this so it must be true! And I’m not just speaking of ladies in their twenties. This applies, it seems, to all ages of women online as the women in my demographic (forties) exhibit the same behavior.
But what gets lost in this is the herd mentality of these ladies. They go out with their friends and the general theme is that there are no good men left. They all sit around and describe their perfect man and when someone brings up a new interesting requirement for a prospective man it is discussed, agreed to by consensus, and added to their respective lists.
So you have two negative forces at play. First, these ladies then go online and ignore most men because of their inflated sense of self.
But the second issue of herd mentality is even worse. If a few of them have managed to maintain some sense of normalcy in their expectations, they now run the risk of incurring the wrath of their circle of friends if they show up with a guy who doesn’t measure up to the herd’s expectations.
Think of that for a moment. She wants the right man in her life, but he then has to be approved by the herd. And if one lady manages to find that guy who passes both tests she then has to deal with the jealousy of her and/or attraction to her mate from the very same herd.
If Anonymous is looking for a LTR then my advice to work his public game. Join coed groups or coed sports leagues and work your game face to face. This will pay off much better in the long run as you get to sort out some of these ladies by seeing them in action.
Is agree with you except for the fact that I get random msgs from girls all the time. How do you explain this? You’re judging the entire female species with a complete generalization that just isn’t true. It may be true for some but not all, by a long shot.
You probably have a decent profile and good photos.
As for the generalization, I have a standard reply: enough women are like
@cashdollar
Your comment is timely. I don’t do online dating but I do belong to a couple of meet up groups for divorced folks in my area. Just today one of the lady members randomly messaged me to meet. All based on one photo and a one sentence greeting.
I probably didn’t articulate my point well enough, but I was trying to say that this herd thinking is even worse than the over reaching self image. Because you, as the guy, are then put in a situation where you have to DHV to her first and then to ALL of her friends. And if you don’t knock it out of the park there will be pressure on your new gal to dump your ass. The subtle pressure from her girlfriends of “You deserve better”. Guys really don’t do this to each other.
I’ve dated enough and heard enough from my dating friends to easily say , as Private Man says, that enough women think like this to make it worth noting.
The problem with all dating sites is simple – women have no control of what they find “attractive” and use their laundry list of things they think they want on dating sites, and find they have zero chemistry with the men they meet.
This is why I stopped using them long ago – I can go out and take a woman home pretty much when I want. Sure I gauge a woman’s response and will punt or go for it based upon her reaction – since a woman has no control over what she finds attractive. And it isn’t what she thinks it is… I am almost the complete opposite of what they will list – okay, not really since I have my own business, makes lots, enjoy life, etc… But they have no idea of any of that since if they ask, I redirect since it isn’t any of her business since I’m not looking for long term. I want her for tonight – end of story. I don’t play her games – she plays mine, or she doesn’t play…
Women DO NOT WANT THE POWER – yes, that’s right. Dating sites give them too much power – reality doesn’t. In reality she has to compete for your attention, and there are other women. When you write to her on a dating site, she knows you’re interested, and therefore she finds you boring. In reality you may be more interested in her friend – or the waitress, or all of the other women. Women compete for your attention – dating sites don’t let them, so it’s pointless…
Give up on those things – get out and meet women. Let them compete for your attention – but don’t try to “qualify” let them be the ones who are trying to prove they are the best value… Women want a man to be in charge and take control – do it if you want to have your pick. It really is that simple…
1. Don’t rationalize which targets are appropriate. Message ALL girls who meet the attractiveness threshold. You may be surprised who is willing to respond, especially if you have a good playful opener that will stand out from all the crude and clumsy come-ons the hot girls get flooded with. Do feel free to ruthlessly cull bad attitudes or other glaring red flags or incompatibilities. But for the most part, common interests on paper mean jack shit for relationships.
2. Be careful about being too polite in messages. While I’ve never found a need to be rude, you definitely do not want to let yourself get bogged down politely answering her every question or addressing/fleshing out every topic that comes out. Feel free to ignore and drop conversation threads that aren’t going anywhere.
3. Tend towards assertions and declarations in the conversation more than question/answer. Q&A gets tiring even if she seems to insist on it. Don’t be afraid to ask a question here or there, but if a girl only responds to direct questions and doesn’t volunteer anything of her own, either she’s not that interested or is incredibly shy and passive.
4. You can probably close a lot sooner than you think. The sweet spot for me seems to be 8-12 messages or so, including the initial opener and all her responses. In those 8-12 messages you want to, ideally, get an idea of what sort of venue would be appropriate (classy/dive/etc.) and whether you’ll be able to tolerate her conversation for a whole date.
Also– I second everything mentioned by infantry in comment 13196. Fits my experience closely.
I have been figuring out this whole online thing lately. I am pretty sure that men put what they want to see in a profile into theirs, and women put what they want to see in a profile into theirs. I modeled mine off the better thought out women’s profiles, and have had way more messages from women starting the conversation. I have had a near 100% hit on messages I send out to women I am actually interested in. The effort has also made me pickier about the women I will engage online. One of the big things is one message, and one message only. Don’t go back to her ever. Some women I have found will want to start a conversation a couple weeks after you send a message. I know one friend told me she used that as a desperation meter. She never responded before the message was two weeks stale. If she had multiples from the guy, then he never got a response.
“If she had multiples from the guy, then he never got a response.”
Ah, so “male multiples” do exist then ?
I’ve heard it go the other way, too. Some women won’t bother responding unless the man sends at least two messages (“because then I know he’s really interested”).
IOW it’s bullshit. For me, I just do whatever the hell I feel like. Sometimes I send a follow-up, sometimes I don’t. So long as you never bitch at a girl for not responding then you should be ok most of the time.
Online dating sites don’t work for most guys. You won’t see any actual success rate statistics from all the online dating sites because they don’t want you to see them because they are bad. They especially would never let any independent researcher do any research studying their sites and then publish it. I think Doc is right. In real life women can see they are competing for you with other women. In real life they see guys passing them over for other women and it keeps their egos in check and makes them want to compete with the other women to get you. On internet dating sites they get emails from a hundred guys and can’t see that those guys are emailing bunches of other women at the same time too. They think there are a hundred guys interested in just them. There’s a one to one ratio between men and women in the world. Women just aren’t that rare and valuable but the nature of internet dating sites make them think of themselves as being so.
Younger guys are lucky to have access to great advice such as can be found on this site.
Some commenters have pointed out that online dating is not the place to look for an LTR. I would go further : there is no place to look for an LTR. LTRs are like sex with a total stranger for women : they “just happen”. Look for one, and you will never find it. Women sense that you are looking for “the one”, even online, and it unnerves them.
You need to work on the most difficult – IMO – of game concepts : outcome independence. Just have fun. Lighten up. No more page-long messages. That stinks of neediness.
Your profile says you would like to be a nudist one day. Booooring. Try saying you are a nudist.
My solution…. And it works. In the past month, I have had probably about 15 online dates in real life from OKC or Match. With 6 converting into SNL and 2 on second dates.
Step 1. Get some professional photos done. I did this easy, go to modelmayhem.com and create a profile as a model, put your best pictures on this. Because new profiles on this site have a high value, you should be contacted by a photographer if you have the right look, looking for a trade for prints (TFP) if you don’t get contacted, find a local photographer on the site and ask them to shoot TFP or for a small fee. Get some pro head shorts, but also ask for him or her to shoot you as something out of GQ or the like. If you want to see my results my id is 2689899
2. Post the best looking shot to your main profile, this is to get you clicks even if it makes you seem like a douche. This is the peacocking in the online world, have a few more non-pro pics telling a story in it as well.
3. Create your profile in a way that is short fun and exciting about the adventures and fanstaies you may take her on. I use a line like, I love giving new experiences such as going camping in big sur, tasting scotch for the first time or throwing a dart at a map and going there.
4. Wait for them to message you and only message girls that view you. I have gotten a real life physical date with 90% of every attractive girl that has messaged me or responded to a message after she views me. Starting off with I caught you checking me out is a good way.
5. 1 back and forth in the 3rd email ask for a date with a time and place close to her, not asking when she is free, no asking for her number, just hey, there is this great place close to you, let’s go for a drink there on Tuesday at 7:30. I hate 500 emails, lets just meet and get it over with. This is the alpha move of online dating, direct and public place with easy logistics to a park or some place more private.
6. Go on the date and do the things that you have learned from the rest of the posts on this site and others.
7. Have fun.
Good advice except that I strongly recommend not waiting for profile views unless you really don’t have the time. Most of the best-looking girls I’ve had dates with would not have even viewed my profile were it not for my initial message. If you’ve somehow managed to get on a site’s hot list and they actively market you to women who aren’t old and fat, good for you, but in my experience the vast majority of unsolicited profile hits I get are not interesting (and it’s gotten steadily worse since crossing the age-30 threshold).
I get on average, 2-3 messages a week from interested girls, almost all convert to at least a date. Having a picture that gets attention is key. I have done some A-B testing with different photos and I rotate between 2 as changing pictures and slight modifications to profiles will place you higher in the search results. SEO works for profiles too.
If it’s okcupid, changing photos and modifying the profile causes you to show up in the “recent activity” section, which is the main reason you’ll get increased profile hits.
I’ll have to try adding the professional picture… but apart from that my okc profile just does not get that much traffic from attractive women without my sending messages first. Yes, I get messages from interested girls (not quite 2-3 per week but regularly nonetheless). I’m only inspired to respond to those, though, about 10-20% of the time. Most of them come from women who are just not attractive to me.
I go for a meet within 2-3 messages. That weeds out the non-serious right there and saves time you otherwise would spend writing silly messages. Also, it seems to me that the SMV grade is skewed in online sites. Porkers think they actually have a shot at me after viewing my profile. I’d spew beer out my nose if they approached me at a bar but they think they have a shot at me online? Also mediocre types think themselves my superior. I suggest either lowering your standards more, or pack it in. Remember it is a numbers game and you only need to find one (at a time)…
I have modeled for various brands, including some abercrombie proofs. With this, I would consider myself in the upper scale of looks for my age (21). The solopsism displayed by even the fatties on these websites is enough to make me sick. As a college student I make 40k a year working contract jobs and modeling, yet, I am suppose to coo and caw over these seacow lookin’ women or better yet: entice the decent looking ones with potential pamperings if they were to join me on an outting.
If a female is on a dating website, she is sick. She has expendedher resources and hit the wall. The younger girls are so socially inept, that if and/or when you finally meet up with them, you will be both let down by their appearance ( couple points lower than the photos on her profile) and their personalities.
If a woman is a decent person, meaning a good heart, social, loyal, and pleasant, she will have no problem attracting and keeping a man in the real world. It is those that must plug into a wall and hide behind the curtain of cyberspace to attract a suitor that should be shunned.
For those of you who are actively dating online and are discouraged. It is indeed an appealing short term solution. Why wouldn’t you? Just drag and drop a couple pics, write up a small autobiography on the shit you deem to be cool laden with shebboliths that demonstrate your value to planet earth. The perhaps say you’re into axe body spray and kittens as your interests. Then wait, slowly for the fish to bite the ever so carefully baited hook. Wait…and Wait….They don’t bite.
But do you really want them to? Are your resources renewable? Can you retrieve the time you lost in your efforts to impress this self titled princess who would play the part of a troll in any other fairytale? The answer to each of these is no…
As you fail to meet the requirements set forth by these photoshopped goblins you will slowly realize that it is not you with the deficiency; but rather the complex lies within the diluted ego put forth by the women online. With seemingly nothing to offer, these women will require an honeydo list of talents and abilities you must possess to woo them.
Don’t give into this. Spend your time bettering yourself. Become more social. Find the women you crave and pursue them with gusto. These are the women in whom you will find happiness.
The latter strategy will require an ample amount of gumption and willpower, but the dividends receieved will be tenfold of that from POF,OKCupid, and the likes. If the OP, a millionaire (guy I know), and an abercrombie model cannot pull a quality chick online… Things are skewed. Get out on the battlefield where the stakes are even. I’ll see you boys there.
I wish you guys the best.
“God help the poor bastards who are 5’7”, or unemployed; I’m sure they’re discarded even more readily.” hey, that’s me.. (well i’m 5’9”). but, my humble opinion is to try with girls in real life, it’s faaaar easier if you have confidence, and btw girls don’t want a good guy for their random experiences, when you hear somthing about “the wrong kind of guy” it either means your too “good” or your too “creepy”, find a balance in between, don’t try to be too perfect, those gals need to feel like they have to change you in some way, give them that chance (but don’t be fooled in compliance…). anyway what about some clubbing with friends? it’s easier because a direct interaction gives your target less chances to stop your rapport or flake or whatever. don’t be scared of rejection, it’s not personal at all, it’s about your method, try and try and try again; eventually i’ll get what you want…
‘What is he doing wrong?’
Looking for love online.
Changing pics and adjusting interests will throw you back up in the searches. So does logging on. If your profile sucks all the messages in the world won’t work, because 9 times out of 10, she will look at your profile before reading a message. If she liked the profile, she will respond to the message. Don’t send 100s of messages. Message girls that are actually attractive to you. Why waste your time just seeking responses.
Okay, first off there seem to be a few misconceptions, so let me clear those up first.
-Some have suggested that I’m being too boring/serious, others that I’m being too much of a clown, so… yea.
-I do not initiate the super-long messages. They result when I send a message of maybe a couple sentences, and she responds with a novel.
-I don’t target women because of common interests. I basically go after anyone who’s kinda cute, not fat, has the tiniest bit of originality in her profile (this is the hardest to come by), seems intelligent, and has no red flags. It really doesn’t matter to me if we have nothing in common; I think that’s my biggest disagreement with conventional dating wisdom.
-I don’t wait very long to close… maybe 3-4 messages each, as people here have recommended. The only difference is that I don’t ask for the date on okc itself; I ask for a number.
-I have actually received plenty of first messages. Only problem is, they’re generally from obese chicks whose profiles appear to be the work of a mentally handicapped person. There were a few from seemingly decent girls but they never materialized.
At any rate, I’ll try what many have suggested, and send out first messages that are just a super brief witty quip about something in her profile. I shall report back my results.
I do not initiate the super-long messages. They result when I send a message of maybe a couple sentences, and she responds with a novel.
It’s a trap! You don’t have to match her response, just pick out a couple of interesting things and respond to that, or take charge of the conversation and push it in a different direction. The key is to still keep it short.
It really doesn’t matter to me if we have nothing in common; I think that’s my biggest disagreement with conventional dating wisdom.
I don’t think we’re about conventional dating wisdom around here. Who you contact–within reason–is less important than how you contact them and deal with the interaction.
I don’t wait very long to close… maybe 3-4 messages each, as people here have recommended. The only difference is that I don’t ask for the date on okc itself; I ask for a number.
That’s probably a mistake. If you’re asking for a number, you’re just pushing the conversation to be taken to a different level of not-in-person interaction. Don’t call it a date, just ask to meet for a drink to see if you two click or whatever.
I have actually received plenty of first messages. Only problem is, they’re generally from obese chicks whose profiles appear to be the work of a mentally handicapped person.
Yeah, we all get that sometimes. I get about 10 “visitors” to my profile each week and about a quarter are from people from the suburbs of NYC, another state, or another country. Fully half are from older, overweight women. All in all, maybe 10% of profile visitors or women who message me are women I’d be remotely interested in. Messaging them, I get about half to agree to meeting up and half of them I’ve gone on to see further.
I’ll try what many have suggested
It can’t hurt. Whenever I see a drop off of good responses and dates–aside from the times when I’ve got a lot of other shit going on and just can’t be bothered–I change up my game until it picks up again.
That said, I’m also a lot older than you, Anon. But the basics are the basics. And I’ve observed, and have others confirm, that there are patterns to online dating. Right now, early fall is usually a good time: Summer and summer flings are over and women are looking for that “Fall” guy. It’ll fall off again and then pick up in late October/early November (gotta have a guy for those holiday parties). December is a fallow period, but after the New Year is the happy hunting ground for a few months.
Good luck, and please do report back. We’re all about the collective wisdom of men around here…
Also remember that there’s nothing wrong with you OP. We’re just critiquing your approach. I found things very harsh when I first hit the PUA sites years ago because the criticism was absolutely cutting (ok) and loaded with ad hominems (not ok and useless).
Online dating is one of the most brutal environments for meeting women in younger age groups and I largely only recommend it as a supplement to real life because of several criticisms that chancebradley touches on above. Quality women don’t normally need to go online to meet men except in a few exceptions (shift work, female dominated industry, rarely meets new people etc). You’re fishing in a vast, but polluted ocean compared to the small fresh water rivers.
The key is to balance humor and seriousness, it’s best to have both but not be self-conscious about it. Perhaps better terms than funny/serious would be predictable/comfortable vs unpredictable/edgy. Ideally you want a mix of both, but frankly don’t worry too much about this. Humor is hard to judge in the first place, plus we don’t see your actual messages. Just extract whatever knowledge you can from the advice.
Agreed with LostSailor about the long messages. The reason I mentioned it is because I’ve fallen into the exact same trap numerous times. You can probably tell by my responses here…
It’s fine if you have a lengthy message here or there especially if you’re a good writer, you’re enjoying yourself, and she’s writing at least as much as you are. But you have to be wary of over-investing and sending the signal that you expect that similar investment from her. If she writes a 5-paragraph message and you write a 6-paragraph message and she feels like she needs to answer with at least another 5 paragraphs, she may start procrastinating. (though if you’re writing 5 paragraphs to every 1 of hers, she probably thinks you’re over-eager). “Write less than she does” isn’t an ironclad rule but it’s an exceptionally good one.
Incidentally, YMMV but in my experience, almost invariably the more attractive women write less. Back when I was just starting out and overly optimistic about photos I wound up meeting a few secret fatties[1]; and ALL of them eagerly wrote long, detailed responses to my questions.
[1] http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sif
Women do not want a man who wants them. The dilemma is, how to contact them without appearing to want them? Answer: Be a jerk.
Anytime you are nice, reasonable, understanding, attentive, co-operative, responsive or appreciative you will be seen as needy and weak.
Also, Don’t confuse long messages (or talks) for sexual interest, its LJBF.
Very true. Messages mean nothing if you cannot meet in person. I’d usually set up a meeting time after the 3rd round of messages. It’s not right away and it’s not too late. Figure out a place that you want to go to, figure out a time, and tell her about it. If she wants to see you, she’ll either agree straightaway or she’ll counteroffer with a different time. If she doesn’t want to meet, then move on to the next person. “Maybe” means “no” as well.
My neighbor says she spent the better part of 2-3 years looking for a man that met her criteria for a good man. Same religious beliefs, significant income, good natured, good man, attractive (to her). Now, her husband is attractive, but she said that she went out on dates with him because of his qualities and not because she was necessarily immediately physically attracted to him, but she became so the more she got to know him. She said she went out on HUNDREDS of dates in order to find the great man she married. She’s pretty, albeit a little on the heavier side. She said she had to go through horrible date experiences, work hard weeding guys out on multiple sites (many christian-based), but she knew she had to put in the effort to find what she wanted.
Her and her husband are great people and are raising quality kids. I wish more women who were approaching or over 30 years old were as in tune with the reality of their value to a high quality man as she was. It’s not surprising that she agrees with me on most of my views of feminism and the red-pill philosophy (within her religious-based scope). She doesn’t even fault me for dating multiple women at the same time, although she obviously has her favorite among the girls I’m dating.
Imagine if every woman was like your neighbor and required hundreds of dates to find an acceptable guy. Then most guys would have to go through hundreds of dates with women to find a woman who would find them acceptable. I don’t think a lot of guys would go through an ordeal like that. They would just drop out of dating altogether. Your neighbor was only able to do what she did because most of the men who met her were going on an assumption based on their past experience with other women that they had at least a fairly good chance with her and that she wasn’t just wasting their time. Your neighbor was only able to do what she did because most women aren’t like her so the system she used to find a guy could never be used universally by all women. Do you think she would understand that?
You missed my point. She was looking for something pretty specific and found it through tons of research and lots and lots of getting to know guys. She put the effort and work in to get what she wanted, which very few women are willing to do in general. She is a quality woman and thus landed a quality guy. The guys that went out with her did have a fairly good chance with her because she was open and honest about what she wanted and didn’t waste anyone’s time.
One of the biggest reasons it took her so long to find her husband is because the number of guys she found that outright lied to her or conveniently forgot to mention something like an obvious dealbreaker was astounding. Yet she has no victim mentality, she just forged ahead and got what she wanted. She used dating sites for the convenience and because she didn’t have large sections of time in her schedule so she tried to fit in dates where it made sense.
Aneroidocean, how can you seriously say a woman is going out on hundreds of dates that don’t lead into a relationship for the guy but she’s not wasting anyone’s time? And, no, I don’t think every one of those guys deserved to have their time wasted by her because they were all “dishonest”. I think that’s a rationalization. When guys go on dating sites, they think there is an implicit understanding on the part of the women on there that this isn’t going to be like a job interview where two hundred guys have to show up to be interviewed by the female for position of future husband before she picks one. If women don’t have that understanding and apparently a lot of them don’t, then men are going to just stop going on internet dating sites because if all the women on those sites are like your neighbor then men are not going to go through that with every single one of them. Guys are going to do a cost/benefit analysis and decide to spend their time in more enjoyable ways. Then women will be whining about “Where are all the men?”.
If you’d actually rebut what I said, that would be great. I never stated that all the men were dishonest as an example.
Aneroidocean, you’re saying this woman had to go through hundreds of dates primarily because of the large numbers of dishonest guys on these sites. I just don’t believe that. This whole comment thread started with the guy at the top saying after going through a hundred women he still hasn’t found someone. Do you think it’s just because this guy is dishonest? The other commenters on here that say they’ve given up on internet dating; do you think they had no success because they are all dishonest? My own experiences where I put in the effort to be friendly with dozens of women on those sites with very little to show for it; is that because I’m just a dishonest guy? I don’t think I am. I don’t see you responding to anything I’m saying. Your neighbor and other women like your neighbor are only able to go on internet dating sites and meet with hundreds of men because men have a false expectation that they’ll be successful on these sites and therefore are willing to spend time on them. You just don’t see that men aren’t going to continue to play the internet dating game on the terms set by women and go through dozens of one and done twenty minute coffee dates where the women critically look them over and then reject them. All the women who do that are just driving men away from internet dating. I wonder how many of those hundreds of men your neighbor passed over eventually gave up internet dating completely because of her and others like her?
“Aneroidocean, you’re saying this woman had to go through hundreds of dates primarily because of the large numbers of dishonest guys on these sites. I just don’t believe that.”
Nope. Let’s look at what I said:
“One of the biggest reasons it took her so long to find her husband is because the number of guys she found that outright lied to her or conveniently forgot to mention something like an obvious dealbreaker was astounding”
“One of the biggest reasons it took her so long” != primarily. There are LOTS and lots of people being dishonest either outright or with their intentions on dating sites, even on dating sites where the intention is more directly to find someone for marriage versus a fling. That was my point. Rebut me all you want, but work harder on your reading comprehension.
You ask questions as if I stated those things, but sure, I’ll humor you:
“This whole comment thread started with the guy at the top saying after going through a hundred women he still hasn’t found someone. Do you think it’s just because this guy is dishonest?”
I don’t know the exact reason, but there have been some very good suggestions on here as to things he can change in both his profile, approach, etc…
That said, dating sites have significant downsides, especially free ones. There will be dishonest people, people on there just for attention, etc…
However, just like a bar, a concert, or a church social gathering, there will always be all kinds of people. The only situation you can control for is yourself, your personality, your outlook, your approach. To give up on internet dating just because you haven’t had success with what YOU think should work doesn’t mean that you’re right. Otherwise, why would he solicit advice?
“The other commenters on here that say they’ve given up on internet dating; do you think they had no success because they are all dishonest? My own experiences where I put in the effort to be friendly with dozens of women on those sites with very little to show for it; is that because I’m just a dishonest guy? I don’t think I am.”
Your strawman argument is huge here. There are tons of people that have very little or non-existent success through any dating venue. Does that mean that those other dating venues are flawed?
“Your neighbor and other women like your neighbor are only able to go on internet dating sites and meet with hundreds of men because men have a false expectation that they’ll be successful on these sites and therefore are willing to spend time on them.”
If men are expecting to be successful with women because they’ve signed up for a dating site and have spent time on it, then they are deluding themselves. Sure, women are part of the problem, but not all women are. You seem to think this example of mine is, but your arguments are likely as flawed as your approach to finding women online.
If you haven’t had success and your solution is to blame everyone else, you’ll have a hard time finding success.
One thing I forgot to mention. I’m glad that you’re “friendly” with women on those dating sites and it’s not been going well for you. Women have plenty of friends. They’re not looking for a guy on a dating site to be their friend, despite what they tell you with their words. You have to look at their actions and all of the non-verbal communication to being to understand what they want.
Women want a confident man that excites and intrigues her.
What is he doing wrong? He on a fucking online dating site! If he really is all that his description says, he should be doing LIVE APPROACHES and GAME.
Results after altering my messaging approach: 10 messages sent to very attractive women, 4 responses within less than a day. Hard statistical proof obviously isn’t feasible with that small of a sample, but looks great so far. Thanks for the advice, to all those who contributed.
To those saying that if I’m all I crack myself up to me, I should be doing real-life approaches… go find me the part where I said I was confident, charismatic, or “alpha.” You won’t. Don’t get me wrong, I’m completely fine in relaxed, 1 on 1 date type settings. But in environments where men must compete for women’s attention and/or break the default assumption that we’re creepy as f*ck, I fail miserably.
Very glad to see this. I thought much of the stuff I do now related to women didn’t stand half a chance of working, but now I know better. To those guys that think this means you have to change your entire being and be someone who you’re not, that’s not really the case. By modifying how I was approaching women much of what I had already been doing actually had a chance to help my chances instead of hurt them. I have so much more fun with women now. I mean, really a lot more fun. I’m talking women of all ages and in most situations. I understand them more and it’s incredible to be so much more comfortable around them instead of trying not to make the wrong move for fear of rejection.
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one thing i’ve noticed, or rather noticed the lack of, is no mention here of the 90-10 rule. yes, they are boring as fuck. totally aggravating. but i would imagine the rule holds true in the online world as well. you talk 90% of the time, while making it about them. try it. i get lame/no responses on okc as well.
slightly off topic, recently i decided to be real cheeky with ones that had nothing in their profile aside from pictures. i’ve gotten no reponses yet, as it was only last night, but for the ones with blank profiles, i said, “you haven’t given much to work with, so here’s a joke” then i told the joke from the boondock saints. if you’ve seen the movie, you know what i mean. if you haven’t, see it.
for those that are saying, are you seriously telling that joke? i live in israel and the sense of humor here is about as far away from PC as you could ever get.
the rest of you guys are leaving awesome comments.
Dude use your head brother! You reply with a witty boondock saints quote to a profile with nothing in it? You can promptly expect to get “nothing” back. I would think that would be common sense. Dumb is as dumb will be. If nothing is in the profile then no body is home.
I haven’t had to message a girl on these sites one time. Never once have I bothered to look around because they come flocking to my profile. Believe me they ain’t flocking to me in real life fact is I’m a Fulltime single dad I’m not even available for any dating at the moment. Plus I’m unemployed so I’m really not in a position to date anyhow. Yes I enrolled in grad school but that doesn’t equal money in the pocket at the moment.
To have women flock to you on these dating sites you just have to have an amazing profile. Common sense again. I’m an artist so my pictures beat anybodys pictures on that website first of all first off the bat. But I don’t even talk about the pictures, my entire profile is a mixture of laughs, sexual innuendoes, a sprinkle of wit, and the promise of my cock at the end. Mix that in with the whole raising a daughter on my own bit and it’s the recipie for success.
Mind you I haven’t dated anyone off there in over a year I don’t even reply to the messages I get these days. But my point is there are MANY women out there who aren’t victim mentality come and rescue me narcissistic I get a million replys so “fuck you” mentality. And they are hot too. You just have to attract them.
“If you haven’t had any success and your solution is to blame everyone else, you’ll have a hard time finding success.”
No, you’re telling me I should be blaming myself and I’m not going to fall for that. When I first went on dating sites, I was like the guy in this post who didn’t have much success and started wondering if something was wrong with him. After I’d been out on the site for a couple years, though, I noticed that a lot of the women who who rejected me were stiill sitting around out there. So it wasn’t a case that they were passing me over and then finding other guys. They either were like your neighbor and and wasting the time of the dozens of guys who were contacting them or they fell into the category of women who are attention junkies and just like getting lots of emails. Once I realized that the problem was them and not me, I felt better about myself. I also stopped wasting time on these sites. I just wish I could warn all the guys emailing these women I see who have been out there for years that they are just wasting their time. This isn’t just my conclusion. A lot of game bloggers who are knowledgeable like Roosh and Roissy and have said internet dating is a waste of time for the average guy. If you don’t believe me, I’ll start quoting them. You seem to have a pretty thick skull that is hard to penetrate so I’ll repeat: if every woman required two
hundred dates to find a guy and every guy knew he had only a one in two hundred chance with e
y
To finish, if every guy knew he had a one in two hundred chance with a lot of women on these sites then he wouldn’t even bother with it.
One problem I see is this. I am 38, and having pretty good results with this. Just like getting a number out and about, I don’t expect every meet to move past the first one on one intentional encounter. I get contacted about 3 times a week by women I hadn’t contacted first, and I get replies from half or more of the women I send messages to. From there its time to have fun. One of my best friends has what he calls the “90% rule” If the relationship isn’t easy or enjoyable 90% of the time, then its time to get out. I operate on the idea that if dating/relationship feels like work more than fun, then its time to be finished.
The problem is this guy is young. Unless he is fishing for a woman 30+ with kids, he isn’t likely to find anything but women who can’t find dates in the real world, or are complete attention whores. The reality of my situation is I expect that most of the women I go out with will be divorced moms, and the occasional young widow with kids. I have four kids and won’t have anymore, so that knocks off the loony ones that think they are going to start a family at 38.
I don’t think online dating is all bad. If you aren’t catching anyone, then change something about your presentation and your approach. Its just like real life game, but with a different tool set. I have met no more crazy and strange women online proportionately than I have in the real world. I have been messaged by them, but I ignore or put them off just like I would at a bar.
cash,
i totally hear where you’re coming from. never once did i ever expect to get a response from the empty girls. it was an experiment to see if i could get a reaction. trial and error. is that what we’re all about here?
as for profiles, i’d be curious to read what you’ve written. my friend, who essentially got me to the community, read my profile and liked it, but more heads are better than one. i’m gonna paste mine below, and i’d love feedback.
my OKC profile:
My self-summary
I don’t like commercials.
What I’m doing with my life
living in a great apartment in the heart of tel aviv, enjoying my surroundings, practicing my creative writing this very moment.
I’m really good at
moussaka. wandering around tel aviv with my dog.
The first things people usually notice about me
my long curly red hair. (i’m going bald with brown hair)
Favorite books, movies, shows, music, and food
people still read books? don’t you mean favorite kindles?
early adam sandler movies, anything with original cast members of SNL, biodome, mafia movies that involve joe pesci/pacino/deniro/liotta so basically all of them, carrie
jungle, old psychedelic rock, good hip hop (anything pre-2000 for the most part and for christ’s sake, no autotune), dead kennedys
anything you can’t get here ie. chinese, mexican, american bbq
The six things I could never do without
my dog
sunglasses
delta blues
cardinal baseball
I spend a lot of time thinking about
thinking about yesterday makes you depressed, thinking about tomorrow gives you anxiety, so just think about today. or something like that.
On a typical Friday night I am
thinking about what i’m doing on a typical saturday night.
The most private thing I’m willing to admit
people that don’t like dogs are not to be trusted.
You should message me if
you think the big lebowski is a masterpiece. or if you know what a roux is, how to make it, and what it goes in. or if you want to write to me. one of those three choices. extra points for the first two options.
ok fellas, let er rip!!!
Man I don’t want to be a dick but that profile kind of sucks. It is too generic and just comes off as lonely aging Guy. You lost me at the red curly balding part. I’ve been told my profile is the best on the entire Internet by half the women that continually email me day in and day out. Thats a bit much but they still say it. The most generic reply i get is “okay i want my prize, i got to the end.”. seriosuly they are asking for my cock right in the first measage they are sending that THEY inititate. to figure out why Here go look for yourself, my profile:
http://www.okcupid.com/idontlikehiking
I had a fair amount of success in online dating. Six dates is about as many weeks before I stopped.
I read this:
My profile doesn’t brag in any way, or contain any hint of negativity/bitterness. It has a playful tone throughout. It’s about medium as far as length (yea yea that’s what she said).
My first thought, I know what he did wrong.
Your profile should have nothing about you. Describe the woman you want. Be playful, arrogant, whatever, but don’t talk about yourself. Get her to match to you.
It works.
I think I listed my hobbies as, “Egging my friends on to fight, Giving unsolicited advice, and Underground Rabbit Fight League”
My messages were short and had a “neg” quality. “Is your hair normally that color?” That type of thing.
I closed for the phone within three messages from her. She has tons of messages. Close quickly and move on to the next woman.
And always be ready to walk out on a date if she gave a false impression. You are completely wasting your time and encouragine her to lie in the future.
I guess I didn’t follow the directions clearly. Here is why I think the approaches aren’t working.
The first message, for me, is a quick, open-ended (no yes-no), attention grabber. It is less designed to get her to answer the actual question than it is to direct traffic to my page. If she does respond to whatever I asked, I build.
I had terrible results for about a month, until I changed my approach and ditched the biography. Giving the biography allows women to find something, anything, to disqualify you. So, I gave them next to nothing.
The never really objected that I didn’t go into detail about myself. Maybe a comment or a question, but never, “Wow, only a creep doesn’t post a bio.”
This technique worked for me, has some solid game elements involved, and shortened my time invested per encounter. I only stopped for personal reasons and not because things dried up. When I re-enter the pool, I may go back, but I think I’m more comfortable just setting a line on okc and pof and hitting other spots for live interaction.
I agree on the approach to the profile. Mine is pretty ambiguous about the bio and is designed to highlight my personality rather than my achievements, likes and dislikes. Plus it leaves something to discover on a date. I like to flatter myself that I write pretty well, so the humor is a bit odd-ball with a fair amount of word-play. Any woman who responds to it is more likely to respond to me.
Since people here have commented that my 30% response rate actually indicates a good profile (depressing as that is), I’ll throw in my two cents on profiles. I think the right kind of profile completely depends on the person you’re looking for.
The style people are suggesting here seems to be geared toward the hot, fun but kinda crazy girl. But I’d say different types require different approaches. If you want the bimbo/mindless drone, say that you’re a chill, laid back guy who likes to have fun and make sure your abs look good in your pics. If you’re after the intellectual, write something really damn long and philosophical. As someone who prefers very intelligent girls who aren’t stuffy intellectual types, I write my profile with a balance of playful.off-the-wall humor and things of actual substance. I think it works pretty well for my purposes. My issue is just getting the digits.
On another note, I swear ~90% of the silly humor you throw at these women probably goes right over their heads. Example: I’m talking to an IVY LEAGUE GRAD, and (playing off something in her profile) I suggest having a sword fight to the death. We exchange a couple messages about this, and then she tells me she’s confused about whether or not I’m being serious. I sh*t you not.
30% is actually a great response rate. Consider that most direct-to-consumer marketing campaigns call a 3-5% response rate successful.
But I have to disagree that you can craft a profile to attract a specific type of woman. At best, you can craft a profile that will pre-filter for certain broad types, but you risk limiting the potential response pool.
The wordy, philosophical profile will tend to limit the pool since most women will likely see it as pretentious or wordy. It doesn’t guarantee a more intellectual response pool. There are plenty of “philosophical” nut-jobs out there. By the same token, the chill/laid-back profile isn’t automatically a magnet for mindless bimbos, but will probably broaden the response pool.
And an Ivy League diploma is not necessarily a sign of intelligence. I know quite a few Ivy League grad women who are as “intelligent” as a box of hammers. I at least hope you told her you were completely serious and challenged her to Katanas at dawn in the park…
Haha well I don’t really think it makes sense to compare online dating messages with marketing campaigns. If you’re a woman, what’s more interesting… a dude who wants to bang you, or “an $80 value all for just $19.99 plus shipping and handling?” We’re pretty much wired to ignore the latter, we see so much of it. I don’t doubt that 30% is way more than most guys get, I’m just sayin…
And I’m confused about your commentary on the “chill/laid back” profile… are you indicating that you think that’s actually a good strategy?
Online dating is a marketing campaign; those things are designed to appeal to women and marketers wouldn’t do them if it didn’t work. What did you think it was?
The chill/laid-back is probably better than the serious wordy, philosophical profile. The profile is to attract interest and responses. Filter for your desired intelligence afterward. So, since online is a numbers game, yes, the former is a good strategy
Uhhh I think there may be a little misunderstanding actually. By chill/laid back profile, I didn’t mean a profile where the guy eloquently demonstrates that he’s chill and laid back. I meant one that literally says “im a pretty chill laid back dude who likes having fun,” or some equally hollow/overused cliche. lol