The Private Man

Attraction and dating information for all men

De-Programming The Programmers

This is for you technologists – programmers, systems guys, database dudes, and any other guy who deals with technology where predictable output results based on consistent input. Human beings are not computers. This goes especially for women. Yes, there are some generally consistent behaviors a man can expect from a women based on consistent input. But you will never get completely consistent output, ever.

I find it almost alarming when technologists start trying Charisma and quickly get frustrated because the results were not as predictable as they wanted. After all, technologists spend their working hours on technology that yields predictable results. Frankly, technologists usually suck at Charisma. Such failure is based on three fundamental reasons:

1. The confidence sub-routine is not functioning properly.

2. Social skills have not been developed.

3. Way too focused on predictable outcomes.

A dynamic social interaction with a woman (verbal conversation) is not a football game. There are no huddles, time-outs, or commercial breaks. Such an interaction is fluid and relatively unpredictable. Consider the basketball game as a better analogy. There are general strategies but the specific tactics at any given moment must change immediately for a team to be successful. After each play in football, everything stops, tactics are considered, plays are selected, and then the game resumes. Charisma doesn’t work like that. Imagine a basketball game where the teams huddle after each basket. It couldn’t work.

Fluid and successful social interactions amongst humans requires good social skills. If a man doesn’t communicate well in a general dynamic social interaction, he’s going to fail even with basic Charisma when dealing with women. This is where social skills become so vital. Technologists too often fail with social skills because of the sometimes unpredictable nature of human social interaction. In human beings, a certain degree of unpredictability is a feature, not a bug. Get used to it.

In order to de-program from the rigid consistency of technology, a technologist should completely re-adjust his thinking regarding dynamic social interactions with women. Don’t work on a specific outcome (she gives me her phone number), don’t work on a generalized outcome (she’s comfortable talking to me), forget outcomes entirely (who is she, again?). This will be extremely difficult for you techies, I know this. I have worked with techies every day for years.

In general, technologists should make a strong effort to get out from behind the computer monitor and actually interact with live human beings, regardless of gender and age. Humans are social creatures because we had to be in order to survive. Be social, be successful.

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29 thoughts on “De-Programming The Programmers

  1. DC Phil on said:

    I’m guilty of this way more than I care to admit, having worked in IT for over ten years and wishing to be a college professor in philosophy, of all subjects, years ago. It set me up to majorly suck with women when I was younger — though I did get a second chance when I went to Korea and found that the women there were, on the whole, much easier to socialize with. It was a ready-made social environment where I could develop those social skills I neglected when I was just a few years younger.

    Also, remember that, though interactions with women don’t follow a logical routine as does a function or if-then in programming, there are some things that techies still struggle with, even those that have better social skills than the uber-nerds. It’s social skills in general, with both genders.

    In DC, for example, “combat dating” is more the norm than the exception, what with the hordes of over-educated and self-important women milling about. They were taught to act like what they think men are (overly aggressive, dominant) and believe that this is what attracts men. This can put off the unsure Alpha, and imagine what it does to the techie. Some techies like to dominate, but their problem is that they dominate in the wrong way: i.e., with knowledge and not with ‘gina-tingle-inducing behaviors. Chicks might dig smart guys, even the nerds, but only for a while before they see that there’s nothing in the nerds that’s of use to them. There’s no “sensitive” or “vulnerable” side.

    “Combat dating” usually translates into “no winners.” Even worse for the techie, who likes to see things operate smoothly. Again, sure, dealing with women means be flexible and outcome-independent, but techies like to see problems fixed and not crop up again. They also like to refer to manuals, which women don’t have. 😉

    • Great comment DC Phil. I’m far from being a techie, but you make some good points.

    • DC Phil on said:

      Something else I forgot to mention . . .

      Techies might be too rigid in comparing social interaction with functions and if-then statements, but all of us, I’ll wager, can’t function very well in social situations unless there are some rules in place, even if only internalized.

      Consider this:

      1. In a relatively unstructured social environment, if I strike up a conversation with a woman, the burden seems to often be on me to keep the momentum going. This is why I like Roosh’s “elderly game/chat” model. It’s a strategy designed to throw bait out to the woman in order to see if she bites and can volunteer more information about herself, which you can take to elicit more information. The assumption is that the chick, for whatever reason, isn’t going to give you much because she’s been approached and hasn’t done the approaching. If she runs with it and then starts asking personal questions, it means she’s interested and you can progress to getting her number. If she doesn’t run with it, and it feels like your speech is becoming belabored. it’s probably wise to terminate and leave her be, because she’s not interested. The reasons are immaterial. She’s not present in the moment and you have nothing or little to work with.

      You can apply this to social interactions with men and children, too. With men, sports and the weather are two “safe” topics of conversation. I hate both, which is why I don’t do too well with small talk. I’d rather have something in common for the event — like IT. 🙂

      2. Riffing off of (1), in the dating environment, the guy’s task is to get to know the chick better. It might be easy for him since she’s talking about herself and doing most of the work (though it will be a chore if the guy has little or nothing in common with her) and if she shows some clear IOIs. Otherwise, it’s probably going to be neutral, with the guy still doing most of the work in the conversation. The rules of thumb in (1) still apply. If she’s not interested, time to bounce. With my dates, if things aren’t going well and I feel there’s an unbridgeable gap between she and I, time to bounce after one hour. No need to prolong the agony.

      Here’s my point: uber-techies don’t have many social skills. They’re nerds and they aren’t naturals. Lesser techies might have more social skills, but not enough. As far as the confidence subroutine, both already have it — just not in an area that chicks have an interest in. And, let’s face it, most American women are pretty shallow with their interests because neither the educational system nor the culture at large instills in them a strong sense of curiosity about the wider world. It’s entertainment, fashion, and food — laced with a lot of attention-whoring. This isn’t me, and I don’t describe myself as an uber-techie.

      Now, if the uber-techies can find the hot Goth and D & D chicks, who are kind of socially inept themselves, they have it made. Just throw in a little non-techie stuff to spice things up, and there should be no problems. 🙂

  2. OffTheCuff on said:

    Any newfound successes I have in social ability comes from totally unplugging from my work environment. I don’t even see this as a chore anymore, if I simply have a “what the fuck” attitude about everything. Now, even I look forward to the unpredictability – it makes things interesting and even entertaining if you have the right attitude.

    I rarely focus on specific techniques or whatever. My most enjoyable social nights have been, when I think to myself “I am going to have good time tonight doing nothing specific, and I’m open to anything happening” and after that, do nothing other than letting things flow: Step 1, get in the proper frame mentally; Step 2, stay in the present, get out of your head, and let things go where they may.

    Sometimes, the most amazing things happen because my stupid head wasn’t in the way to prevent it.

  3. Jay in DC on said:

    This task is made exponentially more difficult because of the utterly mercurial nature of woman. When you are dealing with extremely emotional largely irrational beings even minor things can totally trigger bizarre outcomes. Pile onto this the poisonous I’m the Center of the Entitlement Universe mentality that small children and, not coincidentally, lots of American women have and it starts to present as a Herculean task. I have pretty good natural game and in a profession where I have to sit in meeting rooms and talk to lots of people at once who are looking to me for guidance. But with all that being the case, I have made some totally innocous comments to women from time to time that just sets them off for reasons that were seemingly inexplicable. I wish I had advice or a solution for this but this blog wouldn’t exist if it weren’t a Fucking Huge Problem(tm). The only thing I would offer is that just like when taking up anything in life that you are not naturally adept at, start on the beginner slope. Talk to unattractive women because by nature they are going to be more receptive and approachable. You needn’t follow through with anything other than just getting your feet wet. Then just start moving up the rungs. I do like your freeflow approach though because, quite frankly, it is the only approach you have. DC Phil pegged it succinctly, each “model” comes with an almost totally different set of instructions than another model so you cannot even count on past frame of reference.

    • DC Phil on said:

      When you are dealing with extremely emotional largely irrational beings even minor things can totally trigger bizarre outcomes.

      This is true. On the other hand, be careful of tarring them all with the same brush. For as much as I don’t like (certain) DC women, I’ve never had any truly bad dates. Many of the women were at least cordial to me, so it shows that they have at least some good manners — even if forced and inauthentic. Also, you can learn a lot about how they interact in public when no one is looking or when no one is paying close attention to them, like on a date.

      As for the emotional thing, I’ve had people tell me time and again during my life that it’s a clear sign of immaturity when one can’t control one’s emotions. Yes, many American women suffer from entitlement mentality because it starts at home with their parents and is reinforced by the culture. It’s deregulated and it’s a free-for-all. In order to rebel in a deregulated culture, one has to exercise restraint, especially with oneself.

      each “model” comes with an almost totally different set of instructions than another model so you cannot even count on past frame of reference

      Sometimes you can, yes. If nothing else, you decide what’s important to you and actively screen for these things in the women you date. We men still have the problem of operating under a scarcity mentality, which has been commented upon a lot in other Manosphere and PUA blogs. This is especially true for younger men, who have the most difficulty because of their age. (Women own the 20s. Men don’t.) They need the notches in order to increase their confidence. The more they get, the more they see that there’s more to a woman than her ‘gina — if they want a LTR. If they want the LTR, then they have to screen for other qualities.

  4. In general, technologists should make a strong effort to get out from behind the computer monitor and actually interact with live human beings, regardless of gender and age. Humans are social creatures because we had to be in order to survive. Be social, be successful.

    One does have to socialize in order to hook up with women. To conclude that social interaction is the essence of humanity is, however, about as wrong as it gets. Even non-mammals have social organizations. Only humans write software.

    • While being social is not the essence of humanity, it is part of our survival mechanism considering the 500,000 or so years we spent as hunter/gatherers. Socializing is part of our DNA.

      Humans do a whole bunch of things that no other species do. Why the focus on software?

      • DC Phil on said:

        Agreed. Men need social interaction with other men, but this is difficult to achieve because men are more activity-oriented and so get their needs met in ways different from women. Trouble is, trying to achieve this is difficult, given how contemporary culture is.

        Many people have told me that I need more male friends, and it’s very true. But, where do you find men my age who have the same interests that I do and, more importantly, who have the TIME to invest in building a friendship? Curiously, it seems that women have more time to do this than men do.

        I’ve always thought that, if men were to organize better around common goals, things would work better. Such was the case years ago with labor unions, etc. And, sure, the Manosphere is one such place. But, how to get it done in real time?

        Refer to the one post “The Private Man Speaks.” It’s a call to arms, but how many men out there are willing to step away from the keyboards and show their faces?

  5. This made me el-oh-el.

    Nice post.

  6. Richard Cranium on said:

    That’s one of my main arguments with the PUA crowd is that if you spit X game and say Y neg that she will react in Z way. But if things go askew that it was a weakness in YOUR game. The factor they don’t see is that it isn’t like a science experiment where a+b=c because a and b are known standards that react in a predictable and proven way to produce result c.

    You might do everything right “by the book” but there is a huge variable in the female and her whims/preferences. Maybe she didn’t like your hair/shirt/cologne/jewelry or some other unknown factor that can’t be explained. Maybe she wasn’t looking to get picked up, maybe she doesn’t like guys that do the hard sell, or any number of variables.

    • This is also my criticism of those “systems” pitched by dating and pick up coaches.

    • That’s why having other women interested in you (or at an even more basic level: PAYING ATTENTION TO YOU) is the best variable to work with when you interact with others.
      Consequently, this is also another reason why male youth leaders in mixed-gender ministries … get PLENTY of attention.
      In social situations, watch who women pay attention to.
      Those are the guys who have no trouble having options to choose from.

      This is also a reason why men should carefully check themselves if they intend to do favours for a girl in the hope she will like him back.
      More likely than not, you’ll just have a smile and a careless thanks thrown your way, while she moves ahead with the information and tools you provided to her for free.

      After all, she got what she wanted … which is to be a winner whose success was underwritten by someone else.
      Have other things to look forward to in the day. That way, you really do have to be elsewhere, and if she likes you … she has to ante up.

  7. In reading this post I was struck by the fact that it reminded me of the dichotomy I found in gold> Now, I do not golf. I actually was not bad for a beginner (I played though and met Charles Kuralt the first round I ever played, Idaho near Montana border) but then took lessons and quit-forever. In my brief sojourn I met 2 general categories of golfer: I’ll call them “organics” and “techies”. The organics say “fuck it keep your head down and hit the fucker; when it’s time to putt, put $50 on it-you’ll learn.” The others learned through lessons which reconstructed their swing, formalized every approach, lots of thought in motion. This blog made me think of the latter. I didn’t hook up in bars; I’d show up up high, drink, dance, split. I learned if I showed up looking for it gals could read it a mile away and put me off. The only time I got bar pussy was when I was a bartender, and I needed no game. Girls could scope you out unobtrusively,knew at least one job you had, if you did hit on them and things got slow you could go do something, girls knew your name, could hit the ladies to find out a little more, and if you saw them over tine they sorted got to know ya’. Anyway, I don’t see how you could approach a blind warthog with all this technical shit runnin’ ’round your brain.

  8. DC Phil on said:

    I learned if I showed up looking for it gals could read it a mile away and put me off.

    Moxie’s blog had a post about this some time ago. The upshot was that, if a guy is involved in an activity just to pick up women, the women will smell this and he’ll come across as inauthentic and trying too hard. Women dig naturals and hate fakes. This is why players sometimes crash and burn if they have too many scripted lines and use them as crutches. The “naturals” (if there are truly any) are more fluid.

    Many women love to dance. I don’t. It was never my thing, and I’m not about to invest time, energy, in money in an activity that I don’t have an interest in and where I’ll run the risk of coming across as trying too hard.

    As I mentioned above, I’ve found this difficult because my interests are rather atypical. There aren’t too many things I like that today’s women like, which puts me in a somewhat “werid” camp. For example, how many under-30s out there like Rush and have been to a Rush concert? How many of them know what “Koyannisqatsi” is and have seen it? Very few.

    So, as I said before, the more socially adept techies out there do have their interests and are naturals at them. They show the un-selfed absorption in an activity that they do well. Trouble is, you get the women who don’t like the same thing and then think the guy is being a pompous asshole in trying to teach her something about it. No-win situation.

    • Strauss on said:

      That sounds like a great idea, but what if you are a techie whose only talent/hobbie is precisely technology?

      I admit that i don’t have much talent other than programming and things that involve abstract thinking, i have tried to learn a musical instrument and now i am beginning some dance lessons, and i am somewhat bad at them, I also do them with the hope of meeting more women, more than because i am really interested on the activity.

      Should i just quit them because they are too try hard? I haven’t had much success with the part of “meeting women”, but at least they have put me out of my comfort zone, because otherwise how am i going to meet women? The world of tech is a sausage fest.

      • Hey, great question!

        Here’s your new tactic: Revel in your technological know-how. It will give you confidence. Know that you’re really good at what you do. Don’t talk about it with women because women loathe nerds. Your technological abilities are your confidence sub-routine. The source of your confidence needn’t be revealed, only manifested in your actions and your frame.

        You’re welcome.

      • Jay in DC on said:

        @TPM– Women generally do loathe nerds, agreement. However technical know-how and nerd are not synonymous. Not to flog and kill the dead horse that we are all aware of but I can tell you only from my own experience the following. American Pudgy Fraus particularly of the DC flavor will not be impressed with technical excellence. They would be far more impressed with a Law Degree, MBA, or other bullshit non STEM degree. This is a reflection of our society at large though not just these DC Wildebeasts. If you have the means to interact with in the States, or better yet, be outside of them- try your techie game and you would be QUITE surprised. Again, this is not conjecture or theory, this has been my reality. A Brazilian, Chinese, Hungarian, and Ukranian were almost most impressed with my technical knowledge. This is not a coincedence of course. In cultures that respect the mind and the intellect this is natural game. If you ACT like a nerd in the process, your game will still be disrupted but if you use the “confidence sub-routine” above even in a subject you are masterful at like technology with foreigners it generally pays dividends.

        Hilarious aside from tonight– Ukranian fairly fresh off the boat & me. Arlington, VA. 2 dumb ass 20 something girls right in front of the band grinding each other to attention whore in a bar. Her: “Wait, are they lesbians?” Me: “No, they just do that for clueless 20 something guys.” Her: “Oh… that is really stupid.” Poetry. It -is- really stupid beautiful woman but then, we are fastly approaching Idiocracy.

      • DC Phil on said:

        Adding to both PM’s and Jay’s comments:

        1. I agree, your technical know-how is your confidence subroutine, so start with that and use it to build on something else. It’s good that you’ve taken up dancing and you can use that to increase your physical fitness, which is only good for you in the long run. DO NOT, however, just use it as a pretext for meeting women. They can smell this inauthenticity a mile away and it won’t serve you well.

        Also, to take the edge off of nerdiness, develop other hobbies. Try listening to other kinds of music (e.g., classical) and take an interest in history — maybe the history of your local area. It pays to be well-read in a variety of topics. If nothing else, it enables you to take other flavors of the Red Pill. Red Pill philosophy isn’t just limited to how to be more successful with women.

        2. I second Jay’s emotion. This is really why I seem to do much, much better with internationals than I do with American women anymore. For example, last year I traveled in Romania for three weeks. Met lots of beautiful girls over there — many of them kind, sweet, friendly, and feminine. Nearly all of them asked me what I was doing in Romania and I told them that I wanted to visit the country and that I had some Romanian heritage in my family. That perked up their ears and got me some DMV. I can even speak some Romanian and that really blew them away.

        Also, it never ceases to amaze me how many international girls I run into who know (and, in many cases, love) the Beatles, Frank Sinatra, and the oldies. And, these are 19-22 year olds, mind you, who also know how to cook and make mixed drinks. I know because I’ve hosted a few of them in the past year.

      • In addition to using your tech-knowledge for your confidence sub-routine, some sort of physical improvement also works like weight lifting or martial arts of any kind (not just cardio like running or aerobics). Most techies don’t get much more excercise than getting up to go answer the door for pizza delivery. Being fit makes you feel more confident without even having to think about it but it’s work and takes time. But even the scrawniest or fattest dude can make himself more confident and appealing (both by charisma and by straight body image) by applying himself consistently for 3-4 months (and continuing on from there).

  9. Random Angeleno on said:

    I’ve taken up dancing recently as I happen to enjoy it and had always wished I was competent at it. Seemed like the guys who were good at it got more IOI’s than the rest so that was a motivator too. Like TPM, I am a techie, on top of that, though I am a leader in the workplace, I’m also one of the least sociable people I know. Maybe just too aloof most of the time. Yet I have found this a good way to practice breaking the ice and making the small talk that could be either flirt or just make talk.

    Of course one has to enjoy it. In DC Phil’s case, he does not but at least he knows it and tries to get at the girls some other way. This does point up something: it’s one thing to have a lifestyle that a man enjoys very much. But if that lifestyle is mostly about things that don’t draw much interest from women, he’s going to have to work harder to get into social interactions with them that would mean something to him.

    • DC Phil on said:

      it’s one thing to have a lifestyle that a man enjoys very much. But if that lifestyle is mostly about things that don’t draw much interest from women, he’s going to have to work harder to get into social interactions with them that would mean something to him.

      Very true. On the other hand, one has to consider one’s market and play to that. I live in DC which, so many guys have said, is probably one of the most difficult places for guys because of a whole host of reasons. It’s a difficult market. Badger uses the metaphor “competing in the Walmart,” which means that the chicks here know what they’re looking for and they want it cheaply. They’re also used to douchebaggy types of guys and don’t know what to do with intellectuals like Badger and myself. We’re the outliers, and this isn’t our market.

      As for me and social situations, I’m involved in improv acting and the arts, which attracts a lot of women — and those more my speed. Maybe I’ll take some art and photography classes this summer, too. 🙂

      • P Ray on said:

        ” But if that lifestyle is mostly about things that don’t draw much interest from women, he’s going to have to work harder to get into social interactions with them that would mean something to him.”
        Heh heh.
        If women cannot get it in their heads that the most popular places to meet men are also where they meet the men most likely to be popular with women, and hence more likely to disappoint Princess Snowflake …
        they deserve what they get.

        A woman either smart enough not to stay burned or observant enough to see her friends/relatives do things which make them both marriage- and love-unworthy …
        will seek to meet men who do things the popular men don’t.

        NEVER compete for a woman. Because that may simply be her way of playing “let’s you and him fight, the WINNER gets to pay for me for life”.
        SUCH A DEAL!

  10. Richard Cranium on said:

    Here’s your new tactic: Revel in your technological know-how. It will give you confidence. Know that you’re really good at what you do. Don’t talk about it with women because women loathe nerds. Your technological abilities are your confidence sub-routine. The source of your confidence needn’t be revealed, only manifested in your actions and your frame.

    This is the issue I am dealing with about this whole “confidence” deal. To me that’s always been one of those chick buzz words that’s an incomplete saying They love confident men. But confident in what?

    I’m a musician and an audio engineer and also a “tech nerd.” I love gadgets and electronic devices with tons of knobs it’s just who I am.

    I’m very confident of my abilities with that stuff but that doesn’t translate into getting pussy. If I was talking to a chick and discussed how I nailed an edit on some vocal track or explained how a compressor works they would run away screaming.

    “But you’re a musician those guys gets tons of pussy.” Yes some do. Not all. I’m a bass player which is the equivalent of being the left tackle on a football team no one really notices you until you make a big mistake. Also I’m 5’5″ 120 pounds so I missed the boat on the whole “tall dark and handsome” deal. I do meet women on rare occasions but it’s the exception to the rule.

    • P Ray on said:

      You are around the women who do not value you.
      I am guessing, the 30’s set of “Sex and the City” adherents?

      “I’m very confident of my abilities with that stuff but that doesn’t translate into getting pussy.”

      “I’m very confident of my abilities with that stuff but that doesn’t translate into getting YOUNG pussy.” fixed that for you, no charge.

      “If I was talking to a chick and discussed how I nailed an edit on some vocal track or explained how a compressor works they would run away screaming.”
      You need to hang around the music chicks then. Find where your specialised training costs money… there are plenty of girls who are only willing to accept men who are of use to them.
      Then you can trade up if you feel it is necessary.

      “I’m a bass player which is the equivalent of being the left tackle on a football team no one really notices you until you make a big mistake.”
      Are you aware of how much access a person in your position gets if necessary? “I’m with the band” is a huge status booster to many girls.

      My conclusions? Be around the women who would normally have to pay dearly for your services. They’re much more amenable to reason (read: they know what they have to lose).
      Hey … if women want so-called “status, protection, height, intelligence, wealth, fidelity” from men … you have the right to look for “looks, attractiveness, youth, personality, fidelity” in a woman.

    • “If I was talking to a chick and discussed how I nailed an edit on some vocal track or explained how a compressor works they would run away screaming.”

      Don’t be so sure of that. If you’re talking about it with obvious passion and enthusiasm, a lot of women will feel it.

      • Angeline on said:

        I second this. Working in a job that required me to walk into a roomful of often hostile men and train them on a tech version of what they usually did with hammers and screwdrivers, I learned to get them talking about what they loved about their jobs. It is always amazing to me how eloquent and precise someone, anyone, can be when you dig down into why they do what they do. I could then answer their worries that learning what I was there to teach made them “desk guys”, their anathema. if I valued what they did, they were much more willing to listen to me, knowing I wasn’t there to subvert it, but enhance it.

        I would also like to recommend the dance lessons, for the yanking of the comfort zone alone. Anything that stretches and works one’s ability to deal with discomfort will help in social situations. I was painfully shy and inept as a teen/early 20’s girl. Working in restaurants and bars *made* me step out of that, or I’d have starved for lack of income.

        Most shy/socially awkward people simply need to get out of their own way. It sounds perverse, but they’re actually too self-concerned. The entire room *is not* judging, critiquing, looking down on them. That’s why the poster above is successful with looking outside himself and not expecting any particular outcome when he goes out. He’s open, relaxed, and not stressing over a set of expectations, giving him that aura of confidence, ease, and take-it-or-leave-it that a lot of the pickup advice seems to aim at.

  11. Hamster Tamer on said:

    I resemble that Left Brain Programmatic guy… kinda sorta… WORKIN’ on it!

    OTOH, I can “re-flash” the iPhone of your “monogamous” wife/GF, and turn it into a 24/7 stealth surveillance device, capturing every text, MMS, phone call, and even room audio exchange she has with her “alpha playa”… always good to get the goods on the not-so-good, lol. Everyone has to contribute to the manosphere, in their own way. ;’)

  12. Thing is, I’m not so sure we have to be all that social in order to survive anymore, as in the past.
    Not that that’s a good thing.

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