Call It A Date, Dammit

One of the biggest mistakes a man makes after meeting a woman in real life is when he retreats on the nomenclature of dating. I’m often surprised that even the most confident of men refuse to call a date a “date”. Once a man has established and determined mutual attraction with a dame and he wants to see more of this woman, it’s his moral obligation to escalate to a real future date, not some other meeting where the two are simply hanging out together without any romantic expectations.

Here are some common phrases spoken by a man who is attempting to escalate to a date.  He is screwing things up with such phrases. My comments are in italics.

“We should get together sometime.”

Guys, the conditional “should” is weak and spineless and therefore unacceptable. As well, “get together” is meaningless. There is no expectation of romance.

“Let’s have drinks next week.”

This is better because it’s much more declarative. But where’s the romance? Imply romance, get romance. (Yeah, we know I am talking about, wink wink, nudge nudge)

“[Rock band] is playing next week, want to go?”

NO! I wrote about this.

“Are you free sometime?”

Never, ever end with a question. Confident men make statements and assume the date will already happen.

“Can I get your number?”

Again with the question…oy vey. Also, why would she give the phone number? She has no motivation because there is no future context such as a real date.

In my own life, my most recent date was secured by being firm with the nomenclature. I was out in the village walking my dog and I spied a blond sitting at the outside bar at a local restaurant. There was a vacant seat next to her. I sat down next to her and proceeded accordingly.  Laughs were had, drinks were shared, and a fine conversation occurred. Sure enough, there was quite a bit of mutual attraction.

At some point, I told blondie straight out “I’m really liking this, we’re going to have date.” I looked her straight in the eyes.

“We could hang out, that would be fun” she responded.

After all my practice and failing too many times, I knew the proper response here.

“No, we’re going to have a real date, I’ll take care of everything. It will be something simple.”

The blonde smiled. “OK, a date. I haven’t been on a real date in a long time.”

“That’s because most men don’t know how this works.” Yeah, that was my boasting and it sealed the deal.

Phone numbers were exchanged. Some texting happened before that date so as to avoid the flake factor. The actual date went smoothly and we had lots of fun. We’ve seen each other several times since then and we continue to enjoy each other’s company on real dates. Blondie now laughs comfortably when I tell her we’re going to have another date.

I certainly acknowledge that it puts a woman on the spot when a man sticks to his guns regarding the word “date”. I say good for the man who does this. The willingness to make a woman feel slightly uncomfortable is a major statement of masculine confidence. If she won’t go along with the “date” concept and only wants to get together in another context, the man shouldn’t accept that and simply stop trying for a date.

Regarding the post-divorce crowd, I’m surprised that there is so much resistance to using the correct vocabulary about dating. It’s understandable that we try to avoid romantic expectations because there is the risk of romantic rejection. But if either the man or the woman is unwilling to take that risk, that person is not ready for dating.

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  1. #1 by Tarnished on July 5, 2014 - 2:58 PM

    “At some point, I told blondie straight out “I’m really liking this, we’re going to have date.” I looked her straight in the eyes.”

    Truthfully, if someone told me “we are going on a date”, I’d refuse. Call me weird (it’s been done before), but being *told* something instead of *asked* is a huge difference. You can ask if I want to date you…and if we’ve been having a good time I’d say yes. You can tell me you’re going to date me…and regardless of how we were before, alarm bells start going off about whether you are a controlling, manipulative ass like my father and stepfather were/are. Automatic shut down of any date possibility.

    The guy I’ve been FwB with for 7 years asked if I’d like to go to dinner and watch a movie at his place after our D&D game. If he’d told me I was going to dinner with him, I’d have wondered who the hell he thought he was. But since he asked nicely and is/was a nice man, I gladly said yes.

    Just wanted to point out that women with very controlling father figures or past boyfriends might react very differently than Blondie in the example above did. Maybe this will help someone who’s after a quiet type of woman…

    • #2 by theprivateman on July 5, 2014 - 3:07 PM

      All men are not your father/stepfather. Assuming so means you’re not ready for dating or meeting your relationship goals.

      You’ve had a FwB for SEVEN years?!

      OK, then.

      • #3 by Tarnished on July 5, 2014 - 3:24 PM

        This is very true. All men are different, just like all women are different. What works with one person may not work with another due to past experiences that make one wary. (MGTOWs are a good, if sometimes extreme, example of this from a male perspective.)

        And yes, I’ve had a FwB relationship for 7 years. It started when I was a little under 23. I’m currently 30, and he’s 45. It’s been really great for both of us.

        You sound surprised. Why?

    • #4 by RickyVaughn on July 6, 2014 - 3:25 PM

      You don’t know the context or the chemistry of the moment. If two people were hitting it off then declaring something in a confident but playful manner is not an issue.

      • #5 by Tarnished on July 6, 2014 - 7:57 PM

        This is very true, Ricky. But the way PM relayed it didn’t sound like it was done in a playful/joking manner. It read as a serious tone, especially as he made specific mention to looking directly in her eyes.

        If it was done in a off hand/playful manner with someone you have either known for a while or are obviously hitting it off with…that’s one thing. I still stand by my previous statement though, as different people have different life experiences that mean they may be cautious of certain personality types.

        I have no doubt in my mind that a decent number of women enjoy being led, told they are going on a date, and just generally letting the male take the reins. Good for them, they have the right to look for a traditional man, just as PM has the right to *be* a traditional man. All I was doing was giving an alternative view, that of someone who doesn’t want to be a passenger in the relationship but a fellow driver. I’m confident there are other women like myself who shy away from traditional men due to incompatibility of personality.

        Btw, I’d still like to know what is so strange about “SEVEN years!?” of having a FwB relationship, as PM put it. It was an odd reaction to a long term, happy arrangement, imo.

      • #6 by Richard Cranium on July 6, 2014 - 9:16 PM

        Met a girl at one of my gigs a few months ago and used this approach. She was talking to an acquaintance and I basically inserted myself into the conversation. We were having a pirate themed party and I was wearing a Pirates of the Caribbean costume. Conversed on & off through the night and I pulled the Danny move and handed her my phone and said here give me your #. She obliged and said call me. I texted her a couple of days later and said “It’s the sexy pirate from the other night. You free for dinner?” She said yup. I said “great we’re having Mexican pick me up at 6.”

        Sure enough she showed up to the band house right on time and off we went. Had a great time. She laughed and said now you’re in my phone as “RC the sexy pirate.” Saw her a couple more time when we would be in her town but I’m no longer in that band and most likely wont ever get back there.

        Just proof that PM’s approach works. It’s all about the frame.

      • #7 by Tarnished on July 7, 2014 - 6:19 AM

        @Richard

        Glad you had a good time. :)
        That would work with me if our conversation had allowed you to ascertain that I do, in fact, like Mexican food. If we didn’t talk about food preferences previously at all, I’d wonder why you were planning a meal without asking. Which leads me to the question: What would you have done if she texted back “No thanks. I hate Mexican food.” or something similar?

        For example, in one of our first weeks of being FwB, he said “I’m really in the mood for Indian food. We should eat at (local Indian restaurant) after work tonight.”

        I don’t like the majority of Indian food given the spice palate it uses, so I said “I’m not interested in that. Let’s stop at (local Chinese restaurant) on our way to my place. So we did, and we each got the food we wanted, and awesome sexytimes were had by all. Long term relationships are built on a foundation of caring about what the other person wants and compromise. (Yes, the woman needs to compromise and care about her partner’s needs/wants too. It’s not a one-way street.)

      • #8 by Richard Cranium on July 8, 2014 - 1:12 PM

        I agree with Ricky here. One of the unfortunate downsides of the electronic revolution is that now a large percentage of communication is now done in the two dimensional world of chat, email, texting, etc. and the subtleties of non-verbal communication is pretty much lost lost.I’ve seen so many things be taken out of context because there’s no way to see/hear the tone of voice, a smirk, a raised eyebrow.

      • #9 by Tarnished on July 8, 2014 - 2:40 PM

        You are correct. I experience the same dissonance when I try to talk about table-top RPGs with MMORPG players…it’s just not the same thing.

        It’s entirely possible I misread PM’s post, and he actually “told” the woman he was talking to about their potential date in a playful tone. Perhaps he wiggled his eyebrows to make her laugh, or said it in such a way that she knew he wasn’t truly being demanding. Whatever he did, it worked for the two of them, and I’m happy for them. Bravo on getting the date, PM.

        Regardless, *I* would still have found it in poor taste, as would some other people. If it helps, I am bisexual, and I’d be put off by such a phrase coming from a woman as well. I’d have to have known the other person for a while, or they’d have to say it in an obviously joking manner for me, and people like me, to not be rubbed the wrong way.

  2. #10 by Phero on July 6, 2014 - 8:41 PM

    “You sound surprised. Why?”
    Nothing to be surprised by, many women prefer just fucking to dating. You’re one of them.
    Plenty guys like slutty women

    • #11 by Tarnished on July 6, 2014 - 9:44 PM

      Is it still “slutty” if he’s the only man you’ve ever been with? Seems an odd term for it, but whatever. People are free to use the terminology they want.

      “Just fucking” makes it sound like we only meet up to have sex…we also do the “friend” part of FwB. We go to movies and gaming conventions, play videogames, have a weekly boardgame/RPG night with other friends, and I treat him to dinner 1-3 times a week. He’s hardly just a booty call, he’s an awesome geeky guy to hang with too. Again, it seems terminology is different for some people.

  3. #12 by Will S. on July 7, 2014 - 12:20 AM

    Reblogged this on Patriactionary and commented:
    Hear, hear!
    No ‘hanging out’…

  4. #13 by RazorWire on July 7, 2014 - 12:50 AM

    Yeah always interesting how these ‘independent’ girls can’t see how their FWB choices are a massive red flag for a man with any serious intentions. Yet they expect men to adhere to any variety of the scripts that best serves their current, immediate needs and expectations. Any woman who spends her peak years in a FWB (or series of similar situations) will eventually find that flipping the switch, changing lanes, etc. just might not yield the kind of relationship equity she might think it will. But indeed, Phero is correct, there are plenty of guys who enjoy the fuck toys; many more who will even go as far as to wife them up post-wall, only to find that being the settle-down beta-bux draft horse for the progressive psuedo-strong-independent-woman is just a slow burning dark star approaching implosion. Whats a FWB troll doing here anyhow?

    • #14 by Tarnished on July 7, 2014 - 7:28 AM

      “Yeah always interesting how these ‘independent’ girls can’t see how their FWB choices are a massive red flag for a man with any serious intentions.”
      -Not everyone wants serious intentions. That’s kinda the point of being in a long-term FwB arrangement. Women who are after actual marriage/commitment should focus on that instead.

      “Yet they expect men to adhere to any variety of the scripts that best serves their current, immediate needs and expectations.”
      -These women are brainwashed into accepting double standards…or they just don’t care because said double standards benefit them. Why would you date people like this anyway?

      “Any woman who spends her peak years in a FWB (or series of similar situations) will eventually find that flipping the switch, changing lanes, etc. just might not yield the kind of relationship equity she might think it will.”
      -Truth. Women more so than men need to decide early on if they want sexual freedom ad a career, or if they want a husband and family. That’s just the way the world works, unless you are one of the wealthy few.

      ” But indeed, Phero is correct, there are plenty of guys who enjoy the fuck toys…”
      -Well, duh. A woman who loves to have sex and shares your hobbies but doesn’t want to snare you into marriage, pregnancy, or combined living/bill paying arrangements is what a decent number of men want nowadays.

      ” …many more who will even go as far as to wife them up post-wall, only to find that being the settle-down beta-bux draft horse for the progressive psuedo-strong-independent-woman is just a slow burning dark star approaching implosion.”
      -Which is why I’m glad that there are manosphere blogs and forums that help to inform the modern man of these dangers and inequities. PM’s site here is an awesome source of knowledge for the dating crowd, which if my FwB gets this new job 5 states away I’ll be part of for the first time in since high school. I may not agree with or understand the motivations behind some of his advice, but it’s interesting to read and gives me an idea of what some men look for. Honestly, I’d rather just have another long term FwB arrangement, but I imagine I’ll have to date a bit before finding such a catch.

      ” Whats a FWB troll doing here anyhow?”
      -I’m hardly a troll, as I’ve been following PM for months, have positively linked to his site from my own blog, and he retweeted one of my posts in the past. Like I said above, I’m here to learn and discuss. Getting different views on dating and social interactions is fascinating in it’s own right, and if I must join the dating scene it’s good to know what to expect from various men. Sorry if this seems “trollish” to you, but unless PM asks me to leave I’m not inclined to stop having conversations or asking questions.

  5. #15 by Tarnished on July 7, 2014 - 6:24 AM

    This is an excellent discussion. It’s so great to get other points of view! Thanks for having such a nice blog with an open comments section, PM. I’m learning a lot about the way traditionalists date.

  6. #16 by smoothreentry on July 7, 2014 - 8:23 AM

    I make certain to use the word ‘date’ so there are no misunderstandings of intent. Also: http://wp.me/p2Pdiy-Br

    Sorry I have been MIA….

  7. #17 by Phero on July 7, 2014 - 9:06 PM

    What Razorwire means is that no man (infereing a male who has value) will almost always not take any woman who does FWB seriously when it comes to a long term relationship, investing much time and resources in her.
    A major issue in the manosphere is that it’s actually men who want the traditional LTR/Family/InvestMyLife’sWork more than women. Thus FWBs (or weekend fucks) are not considered for that purpose.
    Of course there is a growing number of men who don’t want to be married, but only because they cannot find what they believe is a worthwhile wife.
    And yes sport fucking is often referred to as slutty in any context from a male perspective.
    Unless of course you’re their fuck buddy. In which case you’re a “good sport”

    • #18 by Tarnished on July 8, 2014 - 3:05 AM

      Thanks for clearing some of that up, Phero. I honestly had no idea that some people think being in a FwB relationship is “slutty”. I don’t think of either myself or my lover that way, but others can use the definitions they are most comfortable with. I always defined slutty via the old joke: “A slut is a woman who sleeps with everyone. A bitch is a woman who sleeps with everyone except you.” Actually, this joke is true in some contexts…

      I’m fine with a man not wanting to invest resources in me. I have my own, and wouldn’t want to take his from him. That sounds pretty unfair. Time? Well, if I’m in a relationship or friendship with a man of course we should spend time together. Not every minute of the day, or even every day…but certainly some each week.

      If I wanted a family/traditional LTR then I also wouldn’t be all that interested in a woman who has only had FwB levels of commitment. Luckily, my lover had a vasectomy before I met him…so no threat of pregnancy for either of us…and neither of us wants marriage, so no worries there. It’s an excellent thing when one agrees with their partner on the big topics.

      “Sport fucking”, lol. Now if only *that* was in the Olympics!

      Okay, now one more question: what is the commonly held definition of a “fuck buddy”? It sounds even more casual that my arrangement…

      • #19 by Phero on July 8, 2014 - 8:32 PM

        “Fuck buddy” is generally someone you get together with the main purpose being to have sex. Every few days, once a week/mth etc.
        While the manosphere is mainly dedicated to the study of “hard wired” instincts of women, men have them as well.
        One of the strongest is loyalty.
        If you think he would see you the same way (specifically like you as much) if you were fucking others and he knew it, I would say you are very wrong.
        The chances are very slim he would favorably see you as a girl also having sex with others.
        That’s how men mostly think: Loyalty is #1
        Of course many of us would be cool enough to say “you can do whatever you want” or “it’ none of my biz” but 99% of times our actions will be the opposite and you will be ruled and others will be seeked.

        The other side is the beta boy or man with no options who will start pleading and begging “don’t you love me anymore” style.

      • #20 by Tarnished on July 8, 2014 - 9:38 PM

        Thanks Phero. Appreciate the definition, that sounds similar to us at times but doesn’t include the friendship aspect…like the times we get together for just dinner or a night playing games.

        See, this is one of the areas of my personal experiences that diverge greatly from the manosphere. My FwB actually *wants* me to have more partners, and has told me this point blank. No joke.

        At first I was hurt and confused, because while I enjoy looking at other men, I only wanted him as a sexual partner. I’d thought that perhaps I had done something to make him loose attraction…but I am still a size 7 like I was when we first met, my personality hasn’t changed, and I grew my hair out to my waist since he likes it’s silkiness. So when he told me to start seeing other people…well, it was weird.

        But he explained that since I never had another partner, he feels guilty (as he’s had about 12). He believes I need to gain more experience, especially as I’m not nearly as touch-phobic as I was before and I’m much better with doing things like cuddling or hugging. Also, for this last month he thought he was going to move away and wanted to make sure I was capable of finding a replacement sex partner. I am happy to report that he is staying in the area, but he is still very insistent that I not let our oft-conflicting schedules slow down my libido, which can be hotter than his own. Thus, I have found another nice guy (he’s actually a 29 year old virgin who lives about 1 hour from me) who could be another potential FwB. This guy also knows that I am still with FwB #1, and is fine with it. I believe in being honest and stating everything up front. All relationships should be based on trust and truth.

        So, it’s odd: I am a loyal person by nature, but have to be disloyal to please my lover. This probably sounds incredibly fake, but I swear on my life it is all true.

  8. #21 by RazorWire on July 8, 2014 - 2:13 PM

    Tarnished,
    You have a boyfriend. You just want greater control in the relationship so you keep it (emotion or whatever) at arms length with the FwB title. He’s likely doing the same thing. He gets younger ass that he doesn’t have to invest much into and you get the dad you never had. So it works for now. What is “interesting” is watching women approach and pass the point in which they unilaterally decide they want more – from him, or from the next guy.

    It is then when the ‘next guy’, ‘settle-down’ guy, or ‘beta-bux’ guy gets the pleasure of exchanging resources, emotional investment, and commitment for what other men (or man) got for essentially nothing. And of course now you don’t want or need anything from a man. That will likely change. Not in voice, or your ‘beliefs’, but it will play out in how you wish to engage in an actual relationship, i.e. your expectations, your checklist of attributes, and how you will “date” when looking to secure long-term mating attached to lifestyle and status desires.

    Some of those potential men will not be so keen to give you the kind of credit vis a vis your FwB relationship as you are giving yourself. Some will see the FwB as an indication of poor relationship skills, emotional risk/damage, and changing stripes (inconsistency, opportunism, etc.) to exact *something* else from the new relationship goal.

    The current sexual marketplace is full of these kind of relationship abstractions, derivatives, and approximations. The takeaway is that men down the road will likely read a variety of things into your “experience”, the majority of which will not be positive.

    • #22 by Tarnished on July 8, 2014 - 7:23 PM

      ” You have a boyfriend. You just want greater control in the relationship so you keep it (emotion or whatever) at arms length with the FwB title.”
      -Nope. We don’t keep emotion at arms length, we both freely talk about how we think and feel about one another. We are literally friends who enjoy having sex together. That’s it. I don’t understand why you think you know my relationship status better than he or I.

      ” He gets younger ass that he doesn’t have to invest much into and you get the dad you never had. So it works for now.”
      -It works for now, it’s worked for nearly 8 years, I hope it’ll work for many more. I see no reason why it wouldn’t, especially as he has declined the job offer that would’ve taken him 5 states away. Dear, I wasn’t fatherless growing up. I had a lot of visitation with my biological father, and a stepfather. Trying to use pop psychology on me and say my lover is some “father substitute” is not valid. I actually find it nauseating.

      ” It is then when the ‘next guy’, ‘settle-down’ guy, or ‘beta-bux’ guy gets the pleasure of exchanging resources, emotional investment, and commitment for what other men (or man) got for essentially nothing. And of course now you don’t want or need anything from a man.”
      -I’m going to assume you are talking about sex. Sorry, but I am not a prostitute, though I have nothing against them and believe their livelihood should be legalized. I do not exchange sex for any resources…I “exchange” sex for sex. Orgasms for orgasms. Pleasure for pleasure. In fact, I’d have more money if I *did* exchange sex for material goods, since I pay for 99% of the entertainment and food my FwB and I share. But I make more than he does, ergo I should pay for more of our times out. It’s logical and fair, given our incomes, that I pay the dinner bill, he pays the tip. Should something drastic and unexpected occur, and I find someone I want to wed, I will not expect anything more from them that I am willing to give myself. It would be an equal marriage…we share our thoughts, our struggles, our intimacy, and our finances. It couldn’t be otherwise.

      ” That will likely change.”
      -Thanks for being like the vast majority of people who think they can tell my future in this one particular area. It’s really cool how so many men and women walk around with crystal balls nowadays. Sorry for the sarcasm, but it’s a pain in the ass to hear this all the frickin time. I’ve known since I was very young that I’d not want what other women do. Now that I’m 30, it hasn’t changed one bit. Just how old do I have to be for people to take me seriously? Guess I’ll have to be in my grave…

      “Not in voice, or your ‘beliefs’, but it will play out in how you wish to engage in an actual relationship, i.e. your expectations, your checklist of attributes, and how you will “date” when looking to secure long-term mating attached to lifestyle and status desires.”
      -This makes no sense. My beliefs won’t change, but the way I conduct myself based on said beliefs will? It seems like you think I have no standards of decency…loyalty…honor…that despite the fact I need to be an equal partner in my relationship, I’ll suddenly wake up one day and my morals will have flown out the window. I will tell you now: If this happens, it will be due to a medical emergency like an aneurysm or Alzheimer’s. A piece of my brain will literally have to die for me to live in a way contrary to my beliefs. Status? Who the frick cares about status? You don’t marry/date for a chance at a new lifestyle. You marry/date because you find someone who brightens your life by simply being a part of it.

      ” Some of those potential men will not be so keen to give you the kind of credit vis a vis your FwB relationship as you are giving yourself. Some will see the FwB as an indication of poor relationship skills, emotional risk/damage, and changing stripes (inconsistency, opportunism, etc.) to exact *something* else from the new relationship goal.

      The current sexual marketplace is full of these kind of relationship abstractions, derivatives, and approximations. The takeaway is that men down the road will likely read a variety of things into your “experience”, the majority of which will not be positive.”
      -Which is absolutely, 100% fine. If I suffer said aneurysm and I suddenly want a family/husband but not a single man on this planet likes my sexual/relationship history…oh well? Too bad for me? That hypothetical development is on *my* shoulders, no one else’s. I am making my bed with the full expectation that I will have to lie in it. If someone doesn’t think making a relationship-friendship work for over 7 years is a good indicator of loyalty or emotional stability, that is their opinion. I have no way to change that, nor would I wish to. People, men and women alike, are entitled to believe what they want whether it’s true or false. I am living my life as I desire, and have wonderful friends and a fantastic friend-lover, as well as a career that I enjoy and will soon have a bigger part in. I am not going to give all this up just so traditional men have a higher opinion of me. If I somehow end up alone, so be it. At least I’ll have been true to myself like MGTOWs are to themselves.

  9. #23 by RazorWire on July 8, 2014 - 10:37 PM

    You’ve got a lot to learn. You’ve been reading here for months, yet it doesn’t seem to be sinking in. You are making the case why men need these places. Too many women just have no clue. Keep on keepin on. If you are pretty, you’ll likely keep landing on your feet.

    • #24 by Tarnished on July 9, 2014 - 9:59 AM

      It’s not “sinking in” because not all men and women follow the same course, have the same personality types, or want the same things from life. PM has some articles that are helpful to me in my life, but many more that are the opposite of useful. It’s just the way it is, no way around it.

      I will keep reading because I like hearing different viewpoints and think PM is an excellent writer, not because I believe I’ll necessarily get a lot out of his topics. It’s just a way to help figure out why some men and women do the things I observe but don’t care to experience. I recommend PM to others, because what they want is what he speaks on.
      Have a good day, Razorwire. I hope you find a satisfying relationship like me, if you don’t already.

  1. Call It A Date, Dammit | Manosphere.com

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