Why No Chivalry When Dating?

A dating adviser, Christie Hartman (link below), recently tweeted:

“Guys: chivalry is an easy, cost-free way to impress a woman.”

My tweeted response was:

NO!!!! THIS IS WRONG!!! DON’T DO THIS!!!!

Via Twitter, she asked why not. As for Christie, I’ve retweeted some of her dating advice tweets in the past because she mostly gives reasonable advice and I support her efforts. It’s unfortunate that otherwise excellent dating advisers sometimes come up with disasters like that tweet. Another example of that is Moxie (link below) writing for Role/Reboot, the most politically correct and idiotic website discussing gender issues. No link from me to that dreck.

As for chivalry (link below), it might have had its place for medieval knights and Dating 1.0. With Dating 2.0, chivalry – especially early in the dating phase – is an expression of weakness and supplication in a man. A woman might be outwardly pleased at a chivalrous gesture but inside, her hindbrain is screaming “Run away! This guy’s a pushover!”.

Worse, chivalry can too easily be exploited by selfish and egotistical women. One of the quickest way for a man to assigned to the FriendZone is for him to act chivalrous to a dame. The loathsome and despicable white knights use chivalry with wanton abandon. This pedestalizes women and the clever ones will manipulate the white knights while enjoying the physical affection of men higher up the sexual food chain.

A bold and confident man can certainly use courtesy and manners as required. If a relationship develops during the dating phase, certain chivalrous deeds can be doled out very rarely. At the start of dating, a man simply can’t be chivalrous but he should be polite.

Ironically, chivalry is where feminism and the Manosphere agree. Feminists hate chivalry because it makes women look weak. Denizens of the Manosphere hate chivalry because it makes men look weak.

Christie Hartman

Moxie

 

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  1. #1 by Lemon on May 20, 2013 - 1:21 PM

    chicks like chivalry when it comes from a super attractive, high status guy.

    but when a guy who’s starting at zero performs chivalry, its a net negative.

    the problem with a woman giving advice is she is thinking of a man in her life from whom she is seeking signs of attainability and commitment, then extrapolating that advice across the board. Chivalry might work fine for an alpha who has already imposed his frame and confidence, but when betas take advice that is meant for alpha males, they just spiral further down the beta drain.

    But chivalry will never “impress” a woman. It can ease her mind, or make her feel secure, both of which can be positives at times in a relationship. But “impress” her? Never.

    • #2 by just visiting on May 20, 2013 - 2:23 PM

      chicks like chivalry when it comes from a super attractive, high status guy.

      but when a guy who’s starting at zero performs chivalry, its a net negative.

      Chivalry can only be performed from a place of strength, whether that’s situational chivalry in saving someones life, or social chivalry requiring confidence, charisma and most of all, FRAME.
      Not a popular concept in the sphere as many men are trying to over come supplication issues and have no other context for chivalry. Even alpha men practicing it will come across women too feral to rise to their level.

      • #3 by Retrenched on May 20, 2013 - 3:51 PM

        Thing is, if a guy has confidence, charisma and frame, then does he really need chivalry to get girls? Probably not. If a guy has all those things then chivalry won’t be a net negative for him, but it probably won’t be necessary either, though it might be helpful in some cases.

        To the extent that women like chivalry (and yes, some women do) it’s a comfort trait, not an attraction trigger. They may for whatever reason hold out for an attractive man who is chivalrous, but the chivalry itself won’t make the man attractive to them in the first place. He needs other traits for that.

        To women, it probably sounds like red pillers are splitting hairs here, but for guys trying to figure this stuff out it’s a very important distinction to make.

      • #4 by just visiting on May 20, 2013 - 4:29 PM

        Depends on the woman. For some its a comfort trait. For others it’s an attraction trait. Those who see it as an attraction trait have linked it with courage and view it’s lack with cowardice. In my case, I grew up with chivalric alphas on one side of the family, and cluster b “alphas” on the other. Dominance (wasn’t) wouldn’t be enough to inspire respect. (And respect is necessary for a woman to love.)

        Chivalry would still require dominant traits. But dominance alone, without chivalry wouldn’t be seen as strength.

      • #5 by P Ray on May 29, 2013 - 6:10 PM

        And respect is necessary for a woman to love.
        Your(the global your, not you specifically) respect doesn’t mean much, if the kind of woman that you are, only respects a man as a pack mule, walking wallet or instant father.

  2. #6 by Milf-in-Training on May 20, 2013 - 1:43 PM

    This depends both on your definition of chivalry and the frame of the man.

    A man with a strong alpha frame can do just about anything and not look weak. If nothing else, he turns an act into a farce.

    But if I’m meeting a man for a coffee date, and he doesn’t stand when I approach, that’s a minus. If we’re walking somewhere, I do expect him to open the door for me. I even expect him to open his car door if I’m getting in (though not when I’m getting out, unless I have 9″ heels on and need help exiting his SUV). These could be called common courtesy though.

    I don’t need my chair held, or help geting into my coat, though it would be fun to agree to these old fashioned manners as an act.

    Private Man, how do you define the difference between courtesy and chivalry?

    • #7 by theprivateman on May 20, 2013 - 1:49 PM

      Courtesy is simply being appropriately polite to all those around you.

      Chivalry are acts (usually traditional) that are performed specifically because the other person is a woman.

      • #8 by ianironwood on May 21, 2013 - 3:45 PM

        I disagree. That’s mere socially-conditioned, class-appropriate manners. Chivalry was, is now, and always will be a warrior’s code, first and foremost.

    • #9 by socal83 on May 20, 2013 - 4:28 PM

      real fucking simple.

      if you would do it for a man, it’s courtesy.

      if you wouldn’t do it for another man, it’s chivalry.

      sorry babe but your car door litmus test is busted.

    • #10 by Hamster Tamer on May 27, 2013 - 2:34 AM

      The Hamster is *strong* in this one. Methinks Mixed-Up-Mixed-Signals-MILF would be a more apropos handle. Her random, a la carte, selection of male-catering actions speaks volumes for the ambivalence of today’s fembots… and explains the succe$$ of Martha Stewart–i.e. faux down-home domestic tingles for career girls.

      I’m guessing ‘MILF’ goes on a lot of first (i.e. LAST) dates… or none at all.

  3. #11 by UCB on May 20, 2013 - 2:59 PM

    I agree with your argument entirely. I’ve definitely noticed a strong correlation between my being genuinely nice and chivalrous and sudden, otherwise unexplainable increases in shit-testing behavoir. But I still perform chivalrous acts all the time. Why? I prefer a drama-free lifestyle. If I’m chivalrous towards a girl and she reacts negatively, then I know that she is not the kind of woman I want in my life. It’s a great filtering tool.

    Still, I agree that most men should avoid chivalry altogether, for all the reasons you mentioned above. I only do it because I usually have enough plates spinning to where I don’t mind occasionally dropping one or two, and even then not until after I’ve slept with a girl enough times to where an occasional misstep shouldn’t cause the relationship to come crashing down. YMMV.

    Also, really appreciate your writing. You’ve put together a great resource for men here.

  4. #12 by Dr. Illusion on May 20, 2013 - 3:34 PM

    I disagree with you, Private Man. I use chivalry with devastating effect. There has only been one female who reacted adversely to my chivalry. She was a high testosterone, ultra feminist cunt who informed me she could open her own damned door. Aside from her, women have always found it sexy as hell, bragged to their friends about my pulling their chair out and how amazing and old-school I am. I am an attractive and high status guy, but I think chivalry can work for any man who maintains frame and has plenty of confidence. If he’s a pussy worshipping beta, it will fail. I’m chivalrous because that’s who I bloody am, not because I want women to like me. My gf is still, after two years, swept off her feet when I take her out to a very upscale restaurant, pull out her chair and order for her. Chivalry must come from a position of strength. But it’s not something to avoid. If you, as a man, abandon chivalry because some bitches don’t like it…it seems to me that you are allowing feminists cunts to control your frame. I would be embarrassed.

    • #13 by Stingray on May 20, 2013 - 4:35 PM

      Chivalry must come from a position of strength.

      I completely agree.

      And for those who wish to to be chivalrous, it is usually something they do for themselves.

      • #14 by Dr. Illusion on May 20, 2013 - 4:44 PM

        Love from Mistress and I, Stingray.

    • #15 by Stingray on May 21, 2013 - 1:25 PM

      And to you and Mistress, Dr. Illusion. Thank you.

  5. #16 by BuenaVista on May 20, 2013 - 4:32 PM

    Totally disagree, though I may have a totally different definition of ‘chivalry’. Perhaps you could elaborate.

    I walk on the curb side, I drive her car, I stand up when she enters the restaurant (and look damn good doing it, which is half the point) and I deal with the wait staff. I make her coffee after I’ve fucked her blind, and I start her shower and give her fresh towels. Cary Grant did these things, and it’s good enough for me.

    Yesterday the woman I was out with for lunch just said, “You just order for me.” I was asking her what she wanted, so that I could order for her. That date went well, to say the least. She could have just said, “I want you to take care of me, because it looks like you know what the fuck you are doing in the masculinity department.” That’s where I want to be with an attractive, interesting woman.

    I think women of value are sick of being treated like men (which they will never admit), by pussies, and while they require, and deserve respect, they’re also thinking, “Gregory Peck never asked permission to order drinks.”

    If some woman gave me a lecture for opening a door for her, I would say (and I have said), “This isn’t going to work. We should stop right now.” If somebody shit-tests me at the table, I ask for two checks on the spot. These women are not anti-chivalry — they’re anti-life. Get away.

    But the most accomplished, interesting women I have dated love to be taken care of for an hour or two. They want competence, control, and confidence. And it makes them wet.

    YMMV. I date in the 35-50 cohort. I have no idea what works in hookup culture.

  6. #17 by earl on May 20, 2013 - 5:08 PM

    She is partly right…chivalry is a way to impress women. But not the way she thinks.

    Practice chivalry with guys in front of her…help them out, lift their spirits, honor “the code”. When they give you praise (and most guys will…we aren’t usually aholes to one another when we lift each other up) she’ll see you as a leader.

  7. #18 by The Private Man on May 20, 2013 - 5:23 PM

    “..when betas take advice that is meant for alpha males, they just spiral further down the beta drain.”

    This. In spades.

    The guy who are supporting chivalry already have the necessary confidence, competence, Charisma, and leadership. They pretty much admit this.

    When a Charismatic man with a very strong frame bestows some chivalry on a dame, she’s apt to swoon. When some chump tries the same thing on a dame, she’s apt to run.

    Shit, gotta tweet that.

  8. #19 by Cknep on May 20, 2013 - 9:14 PM

    Chivalry was originally an agreement between knights, (strong dangerous men with swords) that special consideration would be given to women, (among others) partially because there was no honor to be found in doing them harm and because if they generally all agreed not to harm the women, then their own wives and homes would be the safer for it. Although women benefit from chivalry, it isn’t actually about them. A woman should earn a man’s chivalry by proving that she is worthy of his consideration and inspiring him to value his honor and masculine responsibilities. Chivalry isn’t something that a woman deserves by reason of gender, it’s a response from a man that you may earn. If you use it at all you should use it with discernment. That in and of itself is attractive and masculine in my personal opinion.

    • #20 by ianironwood on May 21, 2013 - 3:48 PM

      Chivalry can’t be “earned”, it must be granted by the practitioner as a pure act of Grace . . . or it isn’t chivalry. A man can decide that a woman has behaved nobly, and is therefore entitled to that Grace . . . but it can’t be earned, obligated, or extorted, or it ain’t Chivalry.

  9. #21 by finndistan on May 21, 2013 - 2:10 AM

    Your audience is older, but for younger guys, dealing with women who think a guy taking it slow because he wants to get to know the woman before any intimacy, is taking it slow because he is too much of a pussy to take it fast, chivalry is like shooting yourself in the foot, elbow and face.

  10. #22 by Days of Broken Arrows on May 21, 2013 - 3:32 AM

    Chivalry was not something men just did, but was an exchange between a man and a woman. A man would be chivalrous because a woman, in return, would be respectful and honorable. Women today want the first part but not the second. That why today’s chivalry translates into “Beta chump.”

    • #23 by Ton on May 21, 2013 - 10:17 AM

      I gave up trying to explain the original concept. The word means something else now, like gay no longer meaning light hearted and happy

    • #24 by ianironwood on May 21, 2013 - 3:43 PM

      Wrong. This is not an obscure science, Gentlemen. Chivalry means something very specific, and it has nothing to do with women.

      • #25 by Ton on May 21, 2013 - 8:08 PM

        I read the book of chivalry written by a French knight in the late 1200’s. I ‘re read it every year or so. It’s a system of ranking honorable action among fighting men and hardly mentions women. Says nothing about opening doors or standing up when they enter a room

      • #26 by BuenaVista on May 22, 2013 - 4:30 PM

        I’m curious. How many times are you going to say the same thing?

      • #27 by P Ray on May 29, 2013 - 6:36 PM

        Chivalry means something very specific, and it has nothing to do with women.
        It means consideration granted towards high-born women by knights.
        Under chivalry, rape was okay if the woman was a peasant.
        How can it exist now, when we no longer have knights?
        And aren’t single mothers asking future boyfriends/spouses to be raped of their earnings by a child that isn’t theirs?

  11. #28 by Ton on May 21, 2013 - 6:25 AM

    Situation dictates. When a girl in her 20’s dates a man in his 40’s she is expecting certain things/ looking for a certain kind of experience. Surprisingly, a large out lay of cash isn’t what they are seeking. Chivalry and pet names are. Often these girls never experienced masculine leadership and caring before.

    The closer my date gets to 40, the more likely her attitude sucks, the more likely she is to negatively interpret classical gentleman behavior, the less likely I will do it

    • #29 by BuenaVista on May 21, 2013 - 7:21 AM

      It’s interesting to me how many women in the 35+ cohort are actively self-sabotaging, and the more graciously they are treated, the more hysterical, or irrational, or immediate (or all three at once) is their sabotage. I attribute it to a desire for control: they fear, and are so accustomed to, rejection, they blow up their own opportunities for companionship. This trait seems to grow linearly with age.

      Chivalry, or even minimal manners, has the opposite effect on them — though they will turn around and insist that they want a traditional, caring man who takes the lead. Yes, I made a woman pay for her own drinks last night. She was guard-rail to guard-rail, sentence to sentence. Shit-test here, compliment there, repeat cycle. After 45 minutes I’d had enough and let her have her way. “Check please, waiter. Missy, you need to give me $20 and we can both go home now.” “Well, I never …” I know 12 year-olds who are more self-aware than that alpha lawyer manufacturing her own spinster-hood. Next.

      • #30 by BuenaVista on May 21, 2013 - 7:24 AM

        Interestingly, it started before she left the house. She arrived at a place she knows that is reasonably fancy — wearing a t-shirt. Women of a certain age who are execs and lawyers (she is both) do not wear t-shirts to a date in a place like that — if they are organizing their behavior to succeed.

      • #31 by Ton on May 21, 2013 - 8:58 AM

        I have no idea why women my age shoot themselves in the foot so often….

        I will say successful women are normally much better dates. I have dated a couple of lady doctors and business chicks with actual accomplishments. Much better experience with them then typical 40 somethings, and they do reapond well to the me man, you woman approach

      • #32 by P Ray on May 29, 2013 - 6:38 PM

        It’s interesting to me how many women in the 35+ cohort are actively self-sabotaging, and the more graciously they are treated, the more hysterical, or irrational, or immediate (or all three at once) is their sabotage.
        No, they’re afraid you can attract younger women with that behaviour.
        Hence they’re pre-emptively rejecting you so that they aren’t reminded of their own obsolescence.
        They got into that situation of being 35 and single, by thinking no man previously was good enough for them.
        The woman who thinks no man is right for them … is simply left.

  12. #33 by ianironwood on May 21, 2013 - 3:42 PM

    Chivalry must come from a place of strength, be distributed by grace, and be an intrinsic part of the man in question before he can safely rely on it. True chivalry is a serious, hardcore ALPHA skill, but what feminists and love-struck women want isn’t Chivalry, it’s attention-whoring supplication disguised with enough flattery to keep her from vomiting.

    You want to see real Chivalry, ladies? I don’t think it means what you think it means.

  13. #34 by Benton on May 21, 2013 - 6:31 PM

    The best advice I learned from the manosphere was “women describe the qualities they want in a man that they are already attracted too.” The characteristics they describe- chivalry, being supportive or “nice,” will do nothing to create attraction and can only lead to you being exploited.

    • #35 by just visiting on May 23, 2013 - 2:17 PM

      It’s not about being nice. That’s where men get into trouble with the supplication thing. It’s not about her. It’s about the man and his code. It’s happening whether she wants it or not because it isn’t her call. She doesn’t control it and it isn’t about her And she isn’t the only one that it’s directed at, which can be easily demonstrated. It’s outcome independant because it was never about her. It’s about him.

      • #36 by just visiting on May 23, 2013 - 3:13 PM

        And, unless you’ve got the alpha basics down, don’t attempt it. It has to come from a place of strength . It’s about the standards he has for himself. It’s never about supplication or appeasement.

      • #37 by P Ray on May 29, 2013 - 6:40 PM

        It has to come from a place of strength . It’s about the standards he has for himself. It’s never about supplication or appeasement.
        If other women want you, you can do as you please with the one you’re with.
        Basically – women excuse the faults of men … as long as other women want that man.
        There is no reason for men to behave towards women any differently then.
        ‘Cause any man that was previously ignored and is now getting attention … there is a reason why it comes from a certain class of women.

  14. #38 by LostSailor on May 22, 2013 - 4:35 PM

    if you would do it for a man, it’s courtesy. if you wouldn’t do it for another man, it’s chivalry.

    While, yes, there is a specific definition of Chivalry as a medieval warriors code, the formal idea of Chivalry changed greatly over the centuries and by the late middle ages had taken on the form as most people think of it today, an aristocratic model of conduct, customs, and manners, that persisted in ever weakening form up until it was finally reduced to near-meaninglessness after World War I. I guess impersonal mass slaughter finally taught men that being “chivalrous” and “gallant” is a good way to get yourself killed for little gain.

    And it mostly was an aristocratic/upper-class thing. The behavior of men on the Titanic is a good example. Most (though by no means all) of the First Class men went along with the whole “women and children” first thing for this reason. Studies of the survival rates of men and women in shipwrecks historically has shown that in most cases, men had much higher survival rates; when it’s life and death, most of the guys will run you down to get to that lifeboat, ladies.

    What most women mean by chivalry today is really nothing more than common courtesy that’s unfortunately become anything but common. So I agree with socal83’s definition. As a rule, I generally don’t extend any courtesies toward women that I wouldn’t extend for a man, with the possible exception of giving my seat on the subway up for a pregnant woman. The really fat guy that looks like he’s about to keep over is on his own…

  15. #39 by BuenaVista on May 23, 2013 - 5:07 AM

    I guess I’m disinterested in historical definitions of chivalry, in part because I read medieval literature in the original Middle English, and prefer not to be schooled on such a pedantic note on a men’s blog. Whatever. Perhaps what I am just interested in a set of behaviors, and a commitment to manners, that appear to be very attractive to women who select for strong and confident men. Example below. I believe many would call this particular action “chivalric”. I call it being a gentleman.

    Last night I had a first date (just drinks) and after drinks prepared to leave the bar. There was a nasty thunderstorm in full bore, raining buckets. Five women were by the front door, quite well-dressed, and my date started to remove her shoes saying she would run to her car. I was looking at all these women in their finery and thinking, This is going to be a very attractive scene once they are soaked to the skin. But, I refocused. The women are yapping with my date. Without a word, I handed my date my jacket and then said simply I’ll go get my car, be right back, and then I booked. I believe this is the sort of thing the PUAs are always sneering at as supplicating misplaced chivalry blah blah. I regarded it as solving the problem at hand.

    The five women *applauded* as I ran out the door. I returned, my date got in my car, still barefoot. We drove to her car. Her hand was inside my jeans in five minutes. And she removed her jeans without prompting in less than ten minutes. True. She was wearing magic clothes: the kind that fall off all by themselves.

    I don’t think this is an age thing. There are 22 year-old platoon sergeants in Afghanistan; they’re not going to turn into betas because they jog through rain so their girlfriend doesn’t have to. My take is just do what you think is right, and if that’s opening the door, don’t look like you’re asking permission first and expecting a cookie afterward. Don’t talk about it, don’t be contrived, don’t peacock. Open the fucking door and put your hand on her shoulder and direct her through. These days I am somewhat arrogant about my manners; they’re getting them whether or not they want them. She is out with *me*, and *I* am taking care of *her.* Inevitably, someone new brings up something like, “You’re awfully bossy (or some other femme word for alpha)”. Educated women are so used to feminized men they are nearly disoriented by manners and male direction. I reply, “You prefer submissive?”. And half of the time, right there, we know where things are going to end up. Only the pyscho self-sabotagers seem to mind, and I suspect they mind because it just makes a man *more* attractive to them (and their agenda is to prove to themselves no one is good enough, they can’t be happy, attractive men are dogs, or something).

    • #40 by Ton on May 23, 2013 - 8:02 PM

      There are no 22 year old platoon sergeants. Not even in SpecOps…. Nit picking for sure on an otherwise good post. It’s funny but after 24 years on the line, I’m immune to rain and what not. Chicks dig it. Sauntering through a down poor to pull the truck around gets em all lubed up.

      What I’ll do for the woman I hope to see naked/ am seeing naked is not extended to women at large. #1, they’ve earned no such privileges # 2 it makes the girl your out with feel extra special.

      And that applies to all manner of things. I am not going to let random chick on my motorcycle, or move something heavy for her etc

  16. #41 by Jarod on May 29, 2013 - 2:30 PM

    It’s all your mind frame. If you’re a chump and you’re always opening doors and pulling out her chair yeah it’ll come across weak minded. But if you’re a confident guy who has his shit together it’s just icing on the cake to your game with the girl.

    Fun read for sure.

  17. #42 by Jane on June 20, 2013 - 4:52 PM

    To all the men out there who are chivalrous – i.e. take care of women. THANK YOU, from a female who is looking for one of you:)
    My father is a very confident, well rounded, wise and good man – and he’s an alpha male who is chivalrous towards all women. And a gentleman to men. He is no pushover. He doesn’t brook bad behaviour or bad manners. He is a class act. He is 80+ years old and last week, he and my mother took a female friend and me out to a play and dinner. (My friend and I are currently both single and dating). At the end of the evening, my friend said, “oh it’s ok, my car is just a few blocks away – you guys go on to your car.” I said to her – you watch, my Dad will have none of that. We will all be walking you to your car and then we’ll go to ours.
    And that’s exactly what happened. My friend was really touched and LOVED it! She said she felt so special and cared for. :) So you can imagine how I felt with this online 1st date: i) He didn’t help me find him in the shop very easily – I came in and looked around. Waited – no male standing up and beckoning me over… I waited a bit more- confused as to who he was as there were a lot of single men there. He knew who I was, as he’d asked what I’d be wearing so he would recognise me. I realised he’d been watching me and finally stood up and waved me over.. and then…
    2) …Said to me as I was just sitting down for the date – “why did you walk right by the counter, aren’t you going to go back and buy yourself your coffee?” I felt sick to my stomach. He’d asked me out. He clearly wasn’t interested in taking care of me. Yes, I can take care of myself – and while I am a strong and independent woman (travelled by myself to Australia and NZ for a year). I am a feminine woman. The spice of life for me is the dance/spark/life in the yin and the yang
    So….as Buena Vista stated in a post – that “if some woman gave [him] a lecture for opening a door for her [he] would say/ [has] said: “This isn’t going to work, we should stop right now.” That is what I will say to any man who says to me: “Go buy your own coffee.”
    And I love his other words…I will try them: “I want you to take care of me, because it looks like you know what you’re doing in the masculinity dept.” Thank you!! And ianironwood – I love your def’n of chivalry and why you are that way. Because you are. It’s your core. To you and Buena Vista and the rest of the men who give women of your chivalrous selves …. THANK YOU! You are so deeply appreciated. You are rare. I will wait for a man like you. :) The women who don’t appreciate you, don’t deserve you. Simple.

  1. Why No Chivalry When Dating? « PUA Central

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