The Pain Of “Be Nice, Be Yourself”

Yesterday’s post, A Man Reveals His Anger (link below), linked to an incredible blog post by M3. The subsequent comments revealed an interesting discussion. Once again, commenter Deti showed his absolute brilliance when responding to a comment from Spacetraveller. (She has her blog and it’s worth checking out – link below).

“So in a post such as M3′s, how *should* a woman react without coming across as patronizing to you?”

Don’t say you know how he feels. You don’t, and you never will. You have absolutely no idea how incredibly painful, frustrated, hopeless and full of rage he felt.

This is more than just about the end of a relationship or a marriage. He knows damn well that the girl he loved didn’t love him back. He knows damn well that another man she finds more attractive is fucking her right now. He knows damn well that she has rejected him for what she believes is a better man than he is.

He also knows damn well this is about the 14th time this has happened to him, and he cannot figure out why. He was nice. He did whatever she asked him to do. He put up with her. He gave her what she wanted. He was polite and kind. And it still wasn’t enough. It would never, ever be enough.

He knows that she assessed him, evaluated him, JUDGED him, and threw him away. He knows that she was secretly making him compete with other men. He knows damn well she put him in the scales and found him wanting. He knows damn well the unforgiving binary zero sum game of this SMP [Sexual Market Place]. In this arena you’re either a rare winner or a common, dime-a-dozen loser, and right now, she has deemed him a loser.

Don’t say she was a bitch. He knows that already.

Don’t say he’ll find someone better. He doesn’t believe that, and if he doesn’t have the skills to stop being “nice” and “being himself” and doing what drove the last one away, he will repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

Just say that you’re sorry he is hurting.

Reading all the comments in that post is worth the time. Also here is my own experience with the whole “be nice, be yourself” experience:

Mom Was Wrong – A Personal Narrative

A Man Reveals His Anger

Spacetravellers Blog

 

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  1. #1 by Phat Guy on November 20, 2012 - 2:09 PM

    “He knows damn well that another man she finds more attractive is fucking her right now.”

    Some comments just get in your gut and marinate or fester till you can’t ignore them anymore. I’ve been to this space in my head, and I hate it there.

  2. #2 by Martini on November 20, 2012 - 3:08 PM

    Would it be correct to say a woman should not date a man she does not plan to have sex with? So if a woman does not believe in premarital sex (ha ha!), or if she doesn’t take sex lightly, i.e., there needs to be love and commitment before sex; or if she just isn’t sure about this guy; would it better to just not get involved with him; not even go on the first date?

    The manosphere doesn’t really believe in male/female friendship (“if I’m not fucking you, I don’t want to hang out with you!”); should a woman not have any male friends even if she’s made it clear it’s going to be platonic friendship only — even if they claim they’re fine with just friendship? It is shabby to string men along just to use them as a source of free entertainment/home & auto repair/armchair counselor. And I do believe in paying your own way on dates/whatever.

    This is poorly written but I think you get the idea. Unless a woman KNOWS she’ll be having sex with the male in question, should she just refuse all social interactions with men on a one-to-one basis? I know many mano’ posters get angry about investing time/money/emotions on dates that don’t go anywhere (sex). This would seem to be the crux of the problem. Men want sex, most women do too, but they have to play the game or get dumped in the slut trash pile.

    Let’s hear some honest opinions, please – thank you!

    • #3 by deti on November 20, 2012 - 3:22 PM

      Thanks for the compliment, PM.

    • #4 by VooDooMan on November 20, 2012 - 3:23 PM

      I think the key is honesty

      Leading a man on is extraordinarily painful to him

      Clarify as soon as possible what you want, then let him decide if he’s OK with that

      Having said this, true friendships between men and women are as rare as honest politicians

    • #5 by deti on November 20, 2012 - 3:28 PM

      Martini:

      I can’t really tell if you’re on the up-and-up here. Assuming you are:

      Male-female friendship is probably OK as long as one of the following conditions exist:
      1. He is not at all interested in her sexually.
      2. He is already dating/sexing someone else.
      3. He is gay, or she is a lesbian.

      Sure, if a woman KNOWS she is never ever ever going to sex a particular man, she should not go on a date with him. But otherwise, I don’t think she can say she knows she will have sex with a particular man. If he’s a possibility she can go on a date with him but as soon as she knows he’s a nonstarter, she needs to cut him loose. She should most definitely be offering to pay her own way. She should take the initiative and start asking out men she is interested in.

    • #6 by Leap of a Beta on November 20, 2012 - 3:53 PM

      My main response to your question is that its on both people to be honest with each other. If the woman has no interest in ever having sex with him, don’t string him along. If. A man wants sex with her he needs to let her know or he can’t be pissed when she friendzones him. It sucks thay men are raised to ignore that they have a pair and dont know how to use them, but thats not her fault.

      But dear lord, the most helpful thing would for people to understand and be ok with people ending contact with each other if one was interested sexually but the other wasnt. One of the most toxic things to a mans masculinity is staying friends with someone that friendzoned him. Screw that. Ditch the broad and find either a real friend or a real sexual interest.

      Friends with her benefits (commitment) is never healthy for a man

    • #7 by taterearl on November 21, 2012 - 8:17 AM

      It’s better that she forces her hand. The only way she forces her hand is if you man up and escalate physically. You save money, time, and your sanity. If it’s not there, go sail down another river to a woman who deserves your commitment.

      You could spend days, weeks, months doing dutiful things hoping chemistry happens only to see her in the arms of badboy of the week…or you go spark that fire yourself. If it was never there, she’ll let you know quick.

      • #8 by NMH on November 21, 2012 - 8:26 AM

        I think one thing that pisses me off about modern western dating culture is that a man MUST escalate to sexuality quickly pretty much to lessen a chance that a woman will find one thing wrong with him and friendzone him. You have to stimulate her dopamine all the way through to get affection.

        Im red pill guy, but this really makes me mad. Western culture deserves to go down to the dopamine animal gutter . Call it the Rhiannazone if you will.

      • #9 by taterearl on November 21, 2012 - 10:07 AM

        I still hang on to my Christian virtue of no fornication before marriage. This is my belief and I’m sticking to it…and truthfully you’ll save yourself a huge headache too. The sloots will disappear and the women that deserve to be there will stick around. Banging sluts may be good for your ego and confidence but it won’t solve the need to be desired and loved.

        However…I don’t wait to escalate touch or make out. I also don’t use alcohol as a cushion to make a move…that way she doesn’t have buyer’s remorse. You don’t need sex to show a woman you aren’t there to be a friend. Friends don’t make out.

    • #10 by hisoj on November 22, 2012 - 12:08 AM

      the issue isn’t that she won’t have sex with a guy who expresses interest, the issue is when she (and all of society) claims that she really wishes she could find a nice guy who treats her right. if women were honest, they could admit to all the nice guys out there: “what I want is a guy who will raw dog me without permission, box my kidneys, and be gone when I regain consciousness.”

  3. #11 by M3 on November 20, 2012 - 4:17 PM

    @Leap
    “But dear lord, the most helpful thing would for people to understand and be ok with people ending contact with each other if one was interested sexually but the other wasnt.”

    This is heretical to the feminist mindset and female imperative. Being a ‘good friend’ requires that you be her support mechanism and console her after a pump and dump. Without beta-orbiters to take the emotional/platonic vomit like a good load bearing structure.. where else could women get this support from?

    Their herd & hamster *Girlfriends*? The alpha men they’re fucking?

    Ha ha. You must be kray with a capitol Z.

    • #12 by Georgia Boy on November 20, 2012 - 5:33 PM

      Load bearing structure? Something tells me we might be in similar lines of work.

    • #13 by taterearl on November 21, 2012 - 8:32 AM

      Also…what does that say about you as a man that you need women as friends? I don’t have time to be an emotional tampon and I could really care less about their escapades. I have my own escapades to create.

      Sit back and listen to women’s conversations…I mean really listen to them. You’ll be bored out of your skull after a while. I’d argue the reason why women like talking to guys is because the real men are straight shooters. We don’t hide what we feel or construct an ulterior motive or communicate by means of covertness….unlike betas or your girlfriend who secretly despises you.

      • #14 by ar10308 on November 21, 2012 - 2:42 PM

        A year or two ago, I was watching a football game with my buddy from college and his wife was around the apartment casually listening to our conversation.

        After a while, she sat down with us and said “I think it is really good for my husband to hang out with you. You don’t talk to him like I do. You talk to each other like men. I can’t do that, and he needs that once in a while.” She definitely recognized that there was a very different dynamic at play between myself and him, and him and her. One that she doesn’t get to experience except from the outside looking in.

        This girl is a great wife pretty, pleasant, feminine and fun. I hope I can find a girl like her to eventually marry.

  4. #15 by Martini on November 20, 2012 - 6:00 PM

    Deti:

    I am on the up and up; obviously this is a serious problem in today’s dating world and it’s not going to improve unless men and women start communicating honestly and knock off the hate & shouting. (unless you like that; I swear some people enjoy the gender wars too much to ever stop)

    How many men would assume a woman wanted to get in their pants ASAP if she was bold enough to initiate a date or whatever passes for a date these days? I never asked a guy out myself for this very reason. (slut!! – not all women consider this a badge of honor)

    Anybody see the movie “Bad Teacher?” It’s not all that great, but M3′s story of receiving years of worthless “be yourself” platitudes reminded me of this movie. I think this is a better way to give advice to young men – brutal honesty.

    • #16 by deti on November 21, 2012 - 3:25 PM

      Martini:

      Most men are not going to assume the woman who asks him out wants to fuck him right away. They will assume she’s interested, for sure. And if women would take the initiative more, it would certainly help get men and women together.

      Women cannot have it both ways. Women cannot insist that men and women are to be equal in every single way, and then demand in the SMP that men take on all the risks of rejection and financial burdens. Women cannot insist on “I am woman, hear me roar” in the workplace and then assume the role of offended, brutalized, dainty, delicate wallflower who gets the vapors when a “creepy” guy asks for the privilege of dropping $100 on dinner and a movie for her.

      If women expect to be “equal”, then women need to step up, woman up and assume some of the costs of dating, and not just financial either.

      I agree there needs to be brutal honesty. If a man is beta orbiting some hottie, carrying her books because he thinks she will see what a great guy he is, then a man needs to sit him down and feed him a red pill. That’s on him. But a woman can’t string along a beta when she has no interest in him. that’s on her.

  5. #17 by Spacetraveller on November 20, 2012 - 6:09 PM

    TPM,

    Thank you for the link!
    Sorry for the long comments in the last thread.

    • #18 by theprivateman on November 21, 2012 - 10:07 AM

      No worries. I like reading thoughtful and reasonable discussion in my blog’s comments.

  6. #19 by CandyDan on November 21, 2012 - 10:23 AM

    This is why granting women “rights” and social power were wrong. When is it going to be time for a reversal?

  7. #20 by LifeUniverse42 on November 21, 2012 - 1:11 PM

    The thing is it should really be :
    Be yourself, the best one you can be and don’t be a doormat.
    The “be yourself and a girl will see how great you are” isn’t a lie to the woman who tell it to guy. Intellectually that’s what a woman want and look for in a great provider, the beta side of guy. What they forget is that the Alpha must be present to incite the tingle of attraction. It is a cognitive dissonance for them when you confront them on it.
    They need some excitement and security that come from the masculine part that can decide something and go for the kill. In time immemorial the guy that did go killing stuff brought back food, thus enabling her to have kid and raise them.
    Taking care of her and being able to kill stuff was the same thing. The Alpha and the Beta were one. It was being a living man or being a failure and dead.

    • #21 by taterearl on November 21, 2012 - 2:15 PM

      Most men stop being really themselves when they get into a relationship…unless the Fematrix tells them to stop being really themselves first.

      Remember what gets them is also what keeps them.

      • #22 by LifeUniverse42 on November 21, 2012 - 3:44 PM

        When entering a relationship the goal is to remain yourself. But life is change and the woman and the man will both need to change in some way to be able to maintain that relationship. Some change is good.

        Both partner enter the relationship because it bring them something, not for the well being of the other person. If they enter in a relationship for the well being of someone else and not themselves the relation is doomed.

        The problem is that most guy are so validated by having a relationship they forget that they entered the relation because it bring them something.

        The guy not too lose the relationship they become the caring partner. Believing that what the other partner want, because that’s what they wish to have.

        The girl become dominating because the guy isn’t acting as the captain of the relation. She need someone to take care of thing and have a goal. Hating herself and her partner because he’s not doing it.

        Man and woman both project what they want in the relationship toward their partner because it’s not fulfilled. When both partner act as the other really need them to act the masculine and feminine start it’s dance and can go forward.

      • #23 by taterearl on November 21, 2012 - 4:19 PM

        I know people change…but I’m talking about a radical personality change many men go through once a woman finally likes them.

        They stop doing what they want to do, they stop hanging out with their friends, they give into her unreasonable demands.

        I kid you not one of my coworkers tells me that he is not allowed to grow facial hair and only goes to the gym when his wife allows him. If I told him those demands he’d probably throw a middle finger in my face.

      • #24 by LostSailor on November 21, 2012 - 6:28 PM

        taterearl, I knew a guy, can’t say he was a friend, who somehow managed to get married after which his wife dictated nearly everything he did. One time she locked him out of his apartment (she’d moved in) when he came home later than his allotted hour of 9pm. Haven’t seen him around in about a year, so I presume he’s forbidden to go out anymore. Every woman I knew who knew him expressed only disgust over the pussy-whipped omega he became. I tried to talk to him about it once, to maybe impart a tiny bit of Red-Pill wisdom, but unfortunately, he didn’t have the ears to hear. A very sad thing, really…

  8. #25 by Emma the Emo on November 21, 2012 - 2:11 PM

    I think when women tell you to be yourself, they maybe mean “be laidback and self-assured”. Doesn’t it make sense? If a guy is acting insecure, he’s “not being himself”, cuz he doesn’t like himself that much. If he is faking confidence suddessfully, he is “just being his awesome self” and nobody can tell a difference.

    • #26 by koevoet on November 21, 2012 - 3:45 PM

      No. If a guy is insecure he hasn’t had sufficient levels of success to buoy the expected level of security. He still has more to learn. The very fact that he is putting himself out there, chancing rejection, should be a sign that he is building courage, but hasn’t yet reached mastery. Women are looking for the top dog. A guy who fakes confidence is at an advantage compared to a man who is still building it up and acts naturally.

      Fake it til you make it. Women will always reward fakers before they do the honest man who doesn’t live up to their rigid standards.

    • #27 by LifeUniverse42 on November 21, 2012 - 3:55 PM

      You are in part right. Most people who tell that to a man is because the guy seem relaxed with them and can show how good he is. But the problem is most people don’t know what make them attracted to each other.

      How many time woman say : the chemistry wasn’t right, not my taste(physically), it’s personality isn’t right. Guy saying : She pretty, she’s a bitch, the upkeep cost must be something, she’s dumb, can’t handle the incessant rambling, etc…

      If you look at all these kind of statement it reveal what people really are looking for as attraction cue. People of each gender know what attract them but neither heard what the other gender is saying. Even inside their own gender people don’t know themselves enough to understand what they are looking for in reality, not what they are told to look for.

  9. #28 by wingman on November 21, 2012 - 4:54 PM

    How I cringe at my own experience coming of age. The era of Helen Reddy and Carly Simon. Billie Jean King. The equal rights amendment. Girls playing boy’s sports. Women becoming VP’s in the corporation. Friends with tough-cookie wives (no names mentioned). The dawn of the ‘strong’ woman and men afraid to ‘commit’. In truth, I am no fan of women being held down by men, Taliban style. Women should have every right to achieve and to conquer, if they so wish. But for freak’s sake don’t teach boys that women will be sexually attracted to anyone other than a true man’s man. They won’t ever be. I thank my lucky stars that despite my environment, I had a few decent role models to teach me the truth, if only by observation.

    • #29 by koevoet on November 21, 2012 - 5:01 PM

      I am about a third of the way through Jack Donovan’s book – The Way of Men. It is seeming more and more to me that a man needs to first seek the approval of his peers, i.e. other men. Then, once he has gained that he can try to attract a woman, but if he cannot even gain acceptance from his fellow men, he’s pretty well doomed.

      One necessary caveat is that the men he is seeking approval from must also be true men, not the piss-soaked rags that often pass for men these days who are worthy of nothing more than ridicule and scorn – both from men and from women.

  10. #30 by Candide on November 21, 2012 - 5:30 PM

    Women, here’s what you do when you encounter a guy like M3 talking about such pain:

    1. Beyond a basic “I’m sorry you’re hurting” – like what you say at a funeral or to someone with cancer that you don’t know how to cheer up – shut the hell up.
    2. If you want to do something for him, stick to very simple gestures like getting him something to drink or eat, a firm sympathetic hand on the shoulder (or similar basic human touch), etc. and once more, don’t say anything.
    3. Don’t try to give him advices or help him. You can’t and you will mess it up worse. He needs a male mentor. Point him to the right one if you know.
    4. Shut up. Because as soon as you start talking, you are going to make it about yourself and how you feel. You can’t help it, so don’t tempt yourself.

    Alternatively, you can fuck him, cos women always talk a good game about loving a man who talks about his feelings.

    • #31 by koevoet on November 21, 2012 - 10:46 PM

      If “#5″ was actually done then I doubt we’d be having this discussion in the first place.

    • #32 by taterearl on November 22, 2012 - 10:43 AM

      Ladies…uttering these phrases

      “Any girl would be lucky to have you.”
      “You are such a nice guy.”
      “Things will work out for you.”
      “It’ll come when you least expect it.”
      “You are such a great catch.”

      Are the worst things you can say to a guy. Kicking him in the nuts would be preferable to castrating the guy with your words.

  1. The Pain Of “Be Nice, Be Yourself” « PUA Central

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