A Man Reveals His Anger

12 years is a long time. 12 years without any intimate physical contact from another human being can shred a man’s soul and utterly demolish his emotional well-being. Men desire sexuality and the accompanying physical intimacy. Without it, a man’s mind can warp itself into the foul shapes of depression and rage. Fellow blogger, M3, went through those 12 years and his story will become required reading in the Manosphere.

Before I give the link, read this quote from Badger to help set the tone of M3′s story.

Women never seem to understand that sexual access is the highest, most direct assignment of value they can give a man – they think they are complimenting men when they tell them “you’re a great guy and you’ll make some woman really lucky someday! Those badboys I sleep with are just short-term flings, I’m not serious about them.”

Fuck that noise. It also puts the lie to the conventional wisdom that sex is REALLY REALLY DEEP and IMPORTANT to women, and they won’t give it away except to a guy they think is a really good match.

The link is below. You simply must read every word of his long blog post. It’s one of the most searingly honest accounts of what a very long period of involuntary celibacy can do to a man. I know a lot of women read my blog and many will squirm and wince as they read M3′s story. You should be squirming and wincing. This should be your call to fight the lies and confront other women for their duplicity and selfish malice. And for you mothers and fathers with sons… teach them the fucking truth.

Confessions of a Reformed InCel (“InCel” refers to involuntary celibacy)

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  1. #1 by Cakes and Shakes... on November 19, 2012 - 1:07 PM

    Jaw on floor. Good on him for publishing this!

  2. #2 by AverageMarriedDad on November 19, 2012 - 2:19 PM

    Thanks for sharing this. I read it over the weekend. Powerful stuff. Welcome M3 into the void left by the recently departed bloggers.

  3. #3 by protagonist on November 19, 2012 - 2:30 PM

    M3 is a f**king hero.

  4. #4 by Suz on November 19, 2012 - 2:36 PM

    Squirm and wince? I was nearly in tears.

    • #5 by redpillwifey on November 19, 2012 - 3:07 PM

      Me too.

    • #6 by Phat Guy on November 19, 2012 - 4:40 PM

      Ugh, same here.

  5. #7 by Höllenhund on November 19, 2012 - 2:48 PM

    Meh. Look, the fact is this: men are psychologically and physiologically well-equipped to handle solitude and celibacy, whether it’s voluntary or not.

    You can subject a man to the most horrible treatment from childhood, and he still won’t lose the sense of justice he’s naturally imbued with. He’ll always have a concept of virtue and vice. A man can be reduced to a serial killer or a mass murderer, and he’ll still understand the concept of right and wrong. Even thieves and gang members have an agreed-upon code of conduct and a sense of morality, no matter how warped it is.

    None of that applies to women. You can provide the best and most nurturing upbringing to a girl, but give her just a little dose of feminist brainwashing or just give her ONE semi-bad experience with men that’s her fault anyway, and she’ll turn into a completely amoral, baby-murdering, disease-ridden slut, capable of henious crimes that most men never even contemplate, a complete waste of space who writes love letters to death row inmates.

    Screw the lamentations about beta “depression and rage”. Men will always retain their moral and intellectual superiority.

    • #8 by VooDooMan on November 19, 2012 - 4:13 PM

      I agree with this unreservedly

      Tragic but true

  6. #9 by Spacetraveller on November 19, 2012 - 3:39 PM

    Yes, that was a real look into the abyss of a man’s life. Very sad, but enlightening, in many ways.
    And I sympathise with him, because he mentions that he really wanted to be with a woman he loved, but who rejected him in favour of a bad boy who for his part did not even care for this woman. That must have been very painful for M3 to witness.

    I might never understand fully what M3 went through, but I hope I have enough imagination to empathise nonetheless.

    • #10 by Ahab on November 19, 2012 - 6:38 PM

      you don’t

    • #11 by Vicomte on November 19, 2012 - 8:21 PM

      You don’t.

      One thing I’ve noticed about women is that romantic rejection tends to make them sad. Boo-hoo, weepy sad.

      They will never understand the complex interaction of nausea, impotent rage, bloodlust and crippling emotional anguish involved with imagining (knowing) that the girl you care about is currently getting jackhammered and filled with some scumbag’s cum, and she loves every second of it.

      Such feelings are a male privilege.

      • #12 by Spacetraveller on November 20, 2012 - 5:31 AM

        Vicomte,

        Alright. I already know that I will never know that feeling personally. I think I already established that in my last comment.

        But I said that I could empathise. There are things in this world that you don’t have to experience personally before you understand how someone who experiences it is feeling.
        Agreed, this may not be one of them, but still…

        To help me empathise (since I am not male and don’t have this ‘male privilege’ you speak of), I try to imagine what it is like for a good woman to love a man and want commitment from him, only to have him reject her in favour of another woman. I believe it goes well beyond ‘boo hoo weepy sad’.
        And yes, I am well aware that even this little scenario will not take me far out enough into M3′s world.
        But that’s as far as my female mind will take me, which helps me to empathise with M3 as best I can.

        Me empathising with M3 does not take away from the gravity of his feelings on the matter at hand. And it doesn’t mean I belittle his experience. Far from it.

        I am not sure how you would like me to react in a way that is helpful.
        I can however only give you the way that I CAN react to M3′s post.
        Which is, with empathy. Or perhaps a better word might be ‘sympathy’.

        If you feel it is not enough, no problem. My comment was directed specifically to M3 anyway. And I am sure there are men here or on M3′s blog (going through a similar thing) who would accept some solidarity from ‘the other side’, even if it is ‘little consolation’.

      • #13 by Vicomte on November 20, 2012 - 7:21 AM

        Space:

        No need to be so defensive. I was simply saying you cannot understand, and cannot empathize. Much like I cannot know an exclusively female experience, nor empathize with it to any real degree. Not in the way that matters.

        The very last thing such men want is female empathy or consolation. It’s patronizing, you see.

        Again, no need to be defensive. I am not intending offense, myself.

      • #14 by Spacetraveller on November 20, 2012 - 8:04 AM

        Vicomte,

        Well, thanks for the explanation!
        And yes, I WAS a bit defensive because I felt called upon to ‘defend’ my earlier comment.
        And no, I did NOT detect any offense on your part, rest assured. Where I detect offense, I simply ignore. Your response to my comment invited a dialogue, so I responded.

        Patronising?
        Really??

        That’s new on me, I must say.
        Mind if I ask the other men here their opinion on this?
        I swear I shall accept it as ‘gospel truth’ if the majority answer is identical to yours :-D

        So in a post such as M3′s, how *should* a woman react without coming across as patronising to you?
        I ask this in all sincerity. I genuinely want to know how YOU specifically would want someone like me to respond.
        (Other than *don’t respond at all* – but I got the impression that TPM wanted the ladies (or dames, as he would say) to participate in all of his posts, and especially this one.
        Am I wrong on this??

        Men and women really do see things differently, don’t they…
        I would never have believed in a million years that my comment earlier could be described as ‘patronising’.
        So whilst I say ‘Vive la différence’ as usual, it must be said that these differences certainly create difficulties sometimes, for sure…
        You and I could have easily embarked on a war of words, when the simple crux of the matter is that I have ‘stepped on your foot’ without realising it…
        Hm…
        Interesting…

        By the way, if you, as a man empathised with a uniquely female issue, I would be pleased, rather than feel patronised. Because I would see that as ‘rare’ and therefore special.

        But I think that could just be another difference between men and women…
        Food for thought…

      • #15 by Vicomte on November 20, 2012 - 8:54 AM

        Space: (I’m always unsure how the comment thread sorts these things, reply should be at the bottom, damn it.)

        In situations such as this you can’t help but respond in a patronizing fashion. Though, in general I will say that most female commiseration feels inherently patronizing. Kind of like that thing where you tell the girl you just met you love her jacket, and she responds that she loves your purse. Could just be me, but I think most men could, well, empathize.

        As an example, if you were (or are) a mother, and a man said he could imagine what that was like, because he also has a child, you might think that carrying and birthing a baby, with all that comes with it as a mother, as a woman, is a bit beyond his ken. You might even feel a bit of a twinge (not the sexy kind); you might feel he was, despite his best intentions, being a bit patronizing.

        As far as how I (personally) would like you to respond, I’d much prefer if you saved your empathy for when it is required. Don’t try to feel what I feel; simply acknowledge that I feel it.

        Finally, in all honesty, madam, any man that claims to genuinely empathize with an exclusively female condition is a liar and a scoundrel, and should be treated as such (Though I can appreciate your feminine sense of goodwill and optimism. I do not, however, understand it in practice. It’s an academic understanding, not an applied one.).

        I think it was Sofia who wrote a post a while back on bloodlust, and how she realized she had no experience of it. Something about how anger, rage, always made her cry. Same kind of thing. Apples to oranges.

      • #16 by Spacetraveller on November 20, 2012 - 9:26 AM

        Vicomte,

        Kudos to you for explaining all this in a non-judgmental manner. It is really nice to understand these things better.

        “Don’t try to feel what I feel; simply acknowledge that I feel it.”

        Well, this one is hard for me. I am personally all about ‘feeling’, and it usually shows in my comments. If I can’t feel it, I can’t even get into it at all. So I am perhaps in trouble if I need to do what you suggest on a daily basis :-)

        But that’s my problem. I am sure I can find a way to get around it.

        I agree with Sofia, whoever she is. I don’t even know what ‘bloodlust’ means, but M3′s post, whilst being mostly about sexual rejection (which everyone feels from time to time, but I agree is infinitely more a male than a female issue), comes under the overall umbrella of ‘rejection’ which is something that is felt by EVERYone in all sorts of relationships, be it intimate or otherwise.
        That is a human experience.
        That, I can definitely relate to, as you do.

        But of course I understand also that in the context of a Manosphere blog, the sexual aspect is the main focus.
        And that (specifically), I won’t be able to relate to, as I don’t have your biology, yes.

        “Finally, in all honesty, madam, any man that claims to genuinely empathize with an exclusively female condition is a liar and a scoundrel…”

        It really does depend on the context! If I smell sincerity, I take this with pleasure (and to comment on the example you give, I really do believe that men can be as loving a father as a woman can be a mother, by the way, although I acknowledge the physical reasons why the parenting experience cannot be *identical* in both sexes).
        If it is manipulative ‘white knighting’, I smell this easily too.

        There is an upside to my ‘feeling’ vibes :-)

        Thanks for the enlightening exchange/education about men.

      • #17 by koevoet on November 20, 2012 - 10:22 AM

        I have always viewed sympathy as being able to feel the same thing as another even though at this exact point you may not be feeling it, and empathy as feeling sad for someone even though you cannot properly understand what they feel. (The actual definitions are somewhat convoluted so I just use these.) For example, if someone’s parent died I would not be able to feel sympathy for them because I have never experienced this level of loss, though I could certainly empathize with them. The vast majority of women will not be able to understand the complete rejection that a man feels in an involuntarily celibate state. Almost any woman, except the most grotesque or misformed, has the option of getting sex. It may not be good sex or loving sex but the option for dregs exists. Some choice is exerted by the woman in going without. There are many men who cannot even get the dregs and there are no legal means through which they can avail themselves, thus their only option is to do without or to do something illegal or morally reprehensible. When coercion is exerted choice is negated.

        All the same, sympathy should be a natural reaction for someone who has suffered the same sorrows. Even the most base can sympathize. Empathy comes from someone who cannot feel the same pain yet does feel someone else’s pain to some degree regardless. I do find it somewhat comforting to commiserate with the other side. It is at least a step in the right direction.

      • #18 by LostSailor on November 20, 2012 - 11:13 AM

        Spacetraveller, you and other women focus on only the rejection and try to compare it to what women experience and think it’s the same thing. It’s yet another example of trying to turn a discussion about men into something about women.

        Women of course experience rejection, but usually safe in the knowledge that they can fairly reliably attract male attention and, if it’s what they’re looking for, sex.

        What you miss or gloss over is that this is not just about rejection. It’s about rejection coupled with the confusion about the rejection that stems from not recognizing and understanding the lies that come with that rejection. It’s about men having been taught from puberty that being respectful and deferential toward women is what they find attractive. “Just be yourself” is the mantra of the Nice Guy that men are told women want. But that’s not what many men actually experience. It’s a lie and a recipe for failure. Men that don’t understand this constantly experience rejection by women who in turn bestow their favors on men who are not respectful or deferential, the stereotypical “bad boy.”

        That is what engenders the rage, and women most definitely do not experience this. Nor, unless they are brutally honest with themselves, do I think they are capable of understanding. Feminists answer this with the false, but self-serving, claim that it’s because men feel “entitled” to sex with any and every woman they choose. That’s a lie that conveniently avoids having to confront female behavior.

        And I am sure there are men here or on M3′s blog (going through a similar thing) who would accept some solidarity from ‘the other side’, even if it is ‘little consolation’.

        No, there are not. Solidarity from women would entail a change in behavior. Sympathetic words of little consolation are indeed patronizing. Primarily because this is a particular discussion among men, not women. Since we recognize that women don’t and probably can’t fully understand, sympathetic words not only ring hollow, but, for men who are still stuck in the blue-pill world, serve to actually increase the pain.

      • #19 by deti on November 20, 2012 - 12:49 PM

        Space:

        “So in a post such as M3′s, how *should* a woman react without coming across as patronising to you?”

        Don’t say you know how he feels. You don’t, and you never will. You have absolutely no idea how incredibly painful, frustrated, hopeless and full of rage he felt.

        This is more than just about the end of a relationship or a marriage. He knows damn well that the girl he loved didn’t love him back. He knows damn well that another man she finds more attractive is fucking her right now. He knows damn well that she has rejected him for what she believes is a better man than he is.

        He also knows damn well this is about the 14th time this has happened to him, and he cannot figure out why. He was nice. He did whatever she asked him to do. He put up with her. He gave her what she wanted. He was polite and kind. And it still wasn’t enough. It would never, ever be enough.

        He knows that she assessed him, evaluated him, JUDGED him, and threw him away. He knows that she was secretly making him compete with other men. He knows damn well she put him in the scales and found him wanting. He knows damn well the unforgiving binary zero sum game of this SMP. In this arena you’re either a rare winner or a common, dime-a-dozen loser, and right now, she has deemed him a loser.

        Don’t say she was a bitch. He knows that already.

        Don’t say he’ll find someone better. He doesn’t believe that, and if he doesn’t have the skills to stop being “nice” and “being himself” and doing what drove the last one away, he will repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

        Just say that you’re sorry he is hurting.

      • #20 by Ahab on November 20, 2012 - 1:58 PM

        Space, try this on:

        You trying to empathize with this guy about being celibate is like a guy trying to empathize with a woman giving birth by saying: ” yeah, i know how you feel. I once had a 4 pounds turd that almost broke my butt…it was brutal. yup, giving birth must be hard…”

      • #21 by Spacetraveller on November 20, 2012 - 5:30 PM

        Ahab,

        Unfortunately, that was the wrong analogy to use to make your point: Stingray and JV both mentioned (in their recent comments to me) the fact that I am not a mother (At least not yet).

        This means I have never gone through childbirth personally.

        Your point is nonetheless taken.
        Got it.

        But…can you see something else that I can?

        Agreeing with you that your analogy is correct (that you cannot compare childbirth to defaecation in the same way that I cannot compare M3′s situation with a woman’s) requires on some level that I agree that childbirth is totally different from defaecation.
        Yes?

        OK, good.

        Here’s the problem.
        I just told you that I never gave birth before.
        So how on Earth do I know that childbirth is different from defaecation?

        See?
        This is where taking the logical conclusion of your argument would take me if I let it.

        But for the sake of common sense, I shan’t go there (again).

        If it seems to you that I am labouring the point, it is only because you keep taking me back to where I had left it to die.

        I think I learned a lot today, for sure.
        And now I really must let it go. Truce?

      • #22 by anonympus on November 22, 2012 - 9:35 PM

        “They will never understand the complex interaction of nausea, impotent rage, bloodlust and crippling emotional anguish involved with imagining (knowing) that the girl you care about is currently getting jackhammered and filled with some scumbag’s cum, and she loves every second of it.
        Such feelings are a male privilege.”

        Oh no… They got those feelings. Later in life, around 30+…
        When they see The-Man-They-Want jackhammering some 20+ years chick.
        And then the bitch knows she will NEVER get this man like this again. THEN she goes boo woo.

        Tested on my bitchy ex :-D

    • #23 by Ahab on November 20, 2012 - 6:40 PM

      Space, writing that comment, I had no notion in my mind of you having children or not.
      This was not the point (I wrote “a woman” not “specifically you space”) of the analogy.

      The point is that it would be as ridiculous as a guy trying to “figure out” what giving birth is like, and I don’t mean just the physical pain. I can imagine that there are also emotional experiencing that I could never comprehend, nor would I try to.

      If I were to offer a resolution for you, this would be the closest:
      You (and 50% of the population) are devoid of the mental instruments necessary to comprehend what being a male incel is like.
      You are incapable of experiencing that pain just as I am incapable of feeling so bad after being pump-and-dumped by a girl ( I’m not sure i’ll even recognize this experience for what it is).

      You know what? I’ll try to imagine for a moment what it’s like being RAPED by a warpig with a strap-on.
      ……
      …….
      ……
      hmm, I could live with that, somehow. I’ll be ok with that in 1 month, tops.

      Now, can you say the same about a woman being raped by a guy?
      Thought so. Lets not take this as a comparison, please. This should only serve to demonstrate the existence of a chasm between our mental worlds.

      As much as I respect the other commenters, I still think that trying to weigh experiences from the male world against experiences from the female world IS POINTLESS.

      Anyway, I am well convinced of your good intentions and the fact that you couldn’t even see why males think that your comment was patronizing is indicative of that. That comment touched a mental construct that only males have.

      Live long and prosper

      • #24 by Spacetraveller on November 20, 2012 - 7:40 PM

        Ahab,

        Long live and prosper too!

        The point I make about the issue of not having given birth is that you needed an analogy I could pick at, to be effective in your argument. Your analogy did not make sense because I am not a mother: much the same as I am told I cannot empathise with a man, you should be aware that I cannot therfore empathise with a mother. That was my point.

        “This should only serve to demonstrate the existence of a chasm between our mental worlds.”

        If you remember, I made this point too a while back.

        “Even if a war pig raped me at gun point, I would probably be over it after a few good showers, assuming I was able to get it up for her. But I do believe I can empathize with a woman who went through it. Doesn’t mean I can understand everything about it, but I still empathize.”

        I am not feeling patronised by this comment’s of Crank’s, and that is the honest truth.
        But you and any other man are entitled to your own feelings.

        But do remember that I can only react in the way a woman can react. This whole thread has blown up because I used a word no-one likes: Empathy.

        I have apologised for it. Ad nauseum.

        We women are not like you men. If I don’t *feel* for you, I cannot be *for* you.
        I accept that it can be overwhelming.
        I have already accepted the ‘patronising’ label.
        And I will dial it back. At least I’ll try if I ever get a whiff of this sort of ‘complaint’ about it in the future.

        But you don’t want me (or other women) to lose this ‘empathy’ thing as a core part of our being. You will have to trust me on this issue.

        It is precisely because so many women have lost this ‘empathy’ thing that M3 and so many men are/were suffering.

        You are attacking the wrong person, Ahab.
        If all you ever had to worry about was that I showed ‘empathy’ where it was not wanted…

      • #25 by Crank on November 20, 2012 - 7:59 PM

        “I am not feeling patronised by this comment’s of Crank’s, and that is the honest truth.”

        Why would you feel patronized by it? I am agreeing that you can be fully able to empathize with someone even if you can’t fully relate to what he is going through or understand the experience, just like I can empathize with a woman who was raped if I would not be capable of the same emotional pain if some woman somehow forced me to have sex with her. I don’t see how that could possibly be patronizing.

      • #26 by Spacetraveller on November 20, 2012 - 8:26 PM

        Crank,

        You may have missed the original context of this comment of mine.

        I was informed by some men here that my empathising with M3 was patronising.
        And that if a man empathised with a predominantly female issue such as rape, I would feel patronised too.

        And strangely enough I don’t.
        And I am pleased that you don’t see why I should either.

        This has been an eye-opening thread, for sure.

        For one, the consensus does not even seem consistent.

        I am strongly reprimanded for feeling empathy for a man.
        And on the same thread, my co-defender, JV, is rebuked for her apparent lack of same empathy.

        I am confused.

        I am waiting to hear which one it is.
        Empathy?
        Or not empathy?

      • #27 by Crank on November 20, 2012 - 9:55 PM

        “I am waiting to hear which one it is.
        Empathy?
        Or not empathy?”

        It appears you’re going to be damned by some if you do, damned by others (I assume it’s others) if you don’t.

        And you’re right, I missed the context and what you were trying to say in that prior post. Carry on.

  7. #28 by just visiting on November 19, 2012 - 4:01 PM

    It was a powerful post in it’s searing honesty.

  8. #29 by Phat Guy on November 19, 2012 - 4:47 PM

    The camel’s back is broken. I lived this for years. I didn’t have the same dry spell torture, but I have absolutely been in all the conversations and I had that blue pill embedded so deep that I need Ipecac and an enema to dislodge it.

    The work is in progress, I figured out some of what I should have been reading in the man-o-sphere for years. I don’t vilify feminism for equality, but I don’t put any women on pedestals and the preferential treatment is over for me.

    I my change started when I decided I was no longer willing to be someone’s Time Ho

  9. #30 by Anonymous Reader on November 19, 2012 - 7:32 PM

    I know a lot of women read my blog and many will squirm and wince as they read M3′s story.

    Doubtless women will read it. Doubtful very many will squirm or wince. Some will be amused, perhaps. Squirming or wincing would require said women to regard M3 as a human being, rather than the walking ATM / sperm vending machine / service robot / beast of burden that women actually see when they look at a male carbon-unit.

    Women who see men as human are a minority.

    • #31 by deti on November 20, 2012 - 1:01 PM

      I don’t know, AR. I think a woman will read this and be horrified. I suspect talk like this from men scares the holy hell out of women. I suspect a woman’s thought processes are:

      “if a man is this emotionally crippled from lack of sex, how can that man ever protect a woman?”

      “He might take out that anger on me and abuse me.”

      “If lack of sex is this debilitating, how can he function?”

    • #32 by Matthew on November 20, 2012 - 4:37 PM

      Females have a lesser capacity for empathy. This is because they are, relative to men, psychopaths. The Mask of Sanity is foundational reading, here.

      Unlike true psychopaths, women do have significant emotions. But these emotions, again relative to men, are so weak and infrequently experienced that women are easily overwhelmed by anything out of the ordinary. They explode at trifles in the same manner as the psychopaths described in Mask. They are similarly surprised when their fabrications are not taken seriously.

      Men suffer strong and abiding emotions throughout our lives, from the earliest ages. But we weather the storms; we learn how to sail through.

  10. #33 by koevoet on November 19, 2012 - 8:49 PM

    Fuck. I couldn’t get all the way through.

    • #34 by deti on November 20, 2012 - 12:22 PM

      koevoet:

      Go back and read it all the way through. And then go back and do it again.

      Force yourself to do it. I did.

      It’s that important.

      It’s that important because right now, somewhere on this continent, a man writhes in agony, a victim of his parents and teachers who told him to “be nice.”

      It’s that important because right now a man is trying to figure out why for the 17th time a woman has rejected him and said she “just doesn’t feel it”.

      It’s that important because right now a man is preparing to marry a 28 year old former semi-professional cum receptacle. He thinks she’s the bee’s knees. She thinks he will be a great father for her kids and will soon buy her her house for nesting. He thinks she’s hot. She thinks he’s reliable. He is in love. She is planning how best to use him. He wants to make a life with her. She wants him as an accessory to her life. He thinks she’s a victim of failed relationships. She knows he is her last chance to lock down a man as she gets kicked off the carousel and The Wall looms large before her.

      It’s that important because right now a wife is plotting her “I’m not haaaaappy” divorce from her husband of 10 years. It’s that important because he will not see it coming and it will flatten him like a Mack truck.

      It’s that important because right now a newly divorced man, court orders in hand, is moving out of his 4 bedroom colonial in the suburbs, and into a studio apartment on the wrong side of the city with little more than what he could fit in his car. Tonight that man will eat a fast food dinner while sitting on a used recliner he bought with his last bit of cash. He’ll watch some TV before going to bed on the pullout mattress. As he rests his head, he’ll wonder how all this happened to him. He’ll fear for his children, and wonder when he’ll see them again. And he’ll ask himself how he will ever comply with the court orders he’s just been given.

      • #35 by theprivateman on November 20, 2012 - 12:40 PM

        Absolutely this.

      • #36 by VooDooMan on November 20, 2012 - 3:28 PM

        Deti,

        Fantastic comment, so true!

      • #37 by koevoet on November 20, 2012 - 9:03 PM

        Deti, I’ll give it another try. I’ve just lived too much of it to be able to read it in one sitting. I find tears spoil the beer.

        Not that I was crying in my beer or anything. Only girls and betas cry. Yep.

  11. #38 by Anonymous on November 19, 2012 - 10:56 PM

    Whenever I used to hear women complain about guys… how we don’t give a f*ck, how rude and uncaring we are, how we’re like animals only after one thing… I was pathetically baffled. “I’m not like that at all,” I thought. “I’m so respectful, loving, and willing to commit. Why aren’t women lining up to be with a great guy like me?” Recently, however, it dawned on me: Whether they realize it or not, these women are NOT complaining men in general. They are complaining about the small percentage of men they’re attracted to.

    A common theme of this blog is that women are the gatekeepers to sex, and men are the gatekeepers to commitment. Well what do us guys think of a girl who gives up sex right away, without making you earn it? Not commitment material. Hmm… then what would a woman think about a guy who is willing to commit right away, without a challenge? Not sex material.

    It’s human nature to devalue things that come easily. Do fraternities have extensive hazing rituals because they’re just a bunch of masochists? No. They do it so that the members view their inclusion as something of high value. As a man, if you don’t “haze” the woman so to speak, by leaving some doubt for awhile as to whether you’d be willing to commit to her… she’ll be as excited about you as she is about tap water. You may be a really great guy, but guess what–having clean, safe water at your disposal whenever you want it is pretty great, too. It still fails to elicit any emotions because you’ve never had to earn it.

    This is where (as the author points out) men have been misled. I’ve found that every woman who has no luck with guys has some glaring unresolved issue… fat, hideous, absurdly picky, what have you. Women know exactly what attracts men; the ones who fail to do so have just neglected themselves and are hard to feel sympathy for. Men, on the other hand, have been fed misinformation their whole lives about attracting women. So many perfectly good, hard-working, determined men end up lonely and depressed because they think it’s a good idea to be all “OMGZ you seem like such a beautiful, great girl. I’d lovvvve to take you out and spoil you and make you the happiest person on earth :) :) :)” before any attachment has been built. This mindset needs to go. Kudos to the author for bringing light to it.

  12. #39 by Clemens on November 20, 2012 - 3:15 AM

    My story is quite similar to M3′s. I felt the same sadness and rage he describes flaring up in me when I read his post. So much truth and tragedy in this. But there is also hope… for us and our sons.

    I will never allow my (2 year old) son to grow up with the feminist lies that were permanently stuffed down my throat. My son’s personal red pill lies safely in my palm. Soon he’ll be ready to take it and then… *gulp* Minus one slave.

  13. #40 by Opus on November 20, 2012 - 1:30 PM

    There are (I address this to spacetraveller – and anyone else) two points whereby such things hurt men far more than women:

    1. A woman may be rejected and inevitably feel hurt, but she knows that (after a good cry) she can put on some war-paint, that new dress she bought and go out on the town and absolutely knows (unless she is a war-pig) that within minutes guys she has never met will be offering to buy her drinks, fix her car, pay for Dinner and who will (should she agree) make love to her as if she is the last woman on earth. She can quickly revalidate herself.

    2. She will get over her previous disappiontment within no more than a few months at most. It can take a man decades – if ever – to fully get over the utter unsult to himself as a man and everything that he is,

    • #41 by Cail Corishev on November 21, 2012 - 9:27 PM

      Yes, that’s the critical point here: the totality and depth of the rejection. If a guy could approach a woman he’s attracted to, maybe have a date or two or just a conversation, and get rejected because she’s not attracted to blondes, or she wants someone who makes more money, or she wants to live in the city and he’s a country guy, it wouldn’t be such a big deal. He’d be disappointed, but hey, you can’t win them all, and not everyone’s going to be compatible. Other women will have different goals and desires, so he just needs to keep looking. It could also give him some things to work on: he needs to make more money, or lose weight, or whatever, to be a more eligible bachelor. There are things he can do.

      But here’s what actually happens: guy meets girl and falls for her, and they seem to be compatible in every way. They have a great time together, enjoy the same interests, have the same dreams and goals, her mom even likes him. She even tells him how wonderful he is, and how any girl would be lucky to have him — right before rejecting him. So basically she’s saying he’s the perfect Mr. Right, a great catch — but not for her.

      What’s he supposed to do with that, especially after it happens with multiple women? There’s nothing he can try to fix or improve about himself, because they keep telling him he’s wonderful just as he is. So he’s as good as he can get, and it’s not good enough for some reason. That’s where the despair, the feeling that he’ll never find someone, comes from. All the evidence that he can see shows that he won’t. If ten women who thought he was wonderful didn’t want him, why would the next one?

      That’s why the rejection goes so deep: it’s not just rejection of some aspect of him, but rejection of the best he has to offer (as he understands it).

  14. #42 by Stingray on November 20, 2012 - 2:47 PM

    Spacetravellar,

    Maybe once you have children you might be able to empathize with *bloodlust* and other people being patronizing to you without meaning to. If anyone one ever did anything to take my children’s innocence or to intentionally harm them in anyway, I would feel bloodlust, beyond a doubt, it would be there in such a strong way that I am not sure I could control it. If someone harmed my husband it would be much the same, though more controlled because if I did something that would take me away from my children I am not sure he could ever forgive me for it. I would control it for his sake and for my children’s sake.

    As to the patronizing, some men will say things about pregnancy, child birth, or breast feeding that come across as very patronizing even when they don’t mean it to be. I think a situation like this would be the same. It is hard for us to even sympathize with a situation like this because of what it means to be female.

    • #43 by just visiting on November 20, 2012 - 3:08 PM

      Stingray
      I was coming back to comment on the same thing, lol. Bloodlust is indeed something women can experience, but usually not until you have a family.

  15. #44 by deti on November 20, 2012 - 2:55 PM

    Spacetraveller offered this:

    “I try to imagine what it is like for a good woman to love a man and want commitment from him, only to have him reject her in favour of another woman. I believe it goes well beyond ‘boo hoo weepy sad’.”

    M3′s post was about involuntary celibacy and the incredible pain and frustration men feel with it.

    Space was suggesting a parallel painful scenario in a woman falling deeply in love with a man and then failing to secure commitment from him, with him rejecting her for another woman.

    I suppose this is probably the closest analogy to male incel status and repeated failures in that regard.

    But let’s unpack this. There are a number of differences which cause the impact to fall much harder on men than on women. This will borrow heavily from Opus and Lost Sailor above.

    1. Women learn early on what men like: good looks, youth and femininity. It is simply natural. Girls as young as 3 years old naturally flirt, giggle, play with their hair and respond positively to gentle teasing when around older men. This is constantly reinforced throughout her life. Her adolescence, teen years, college years and young adult years are one long validation/affirmation fest as she receives a stream of constant interest from men; as well as free drinks, meals, dates, vacations, and favors. She receives accolades and credit for her looks, youth, strength and independence.

    But men start out at a disadvantage. Boys are constantly told to be quiet, sit down, shut up, and be gentlemen. They are bombarded every day with messages from parents, teachers, pastors, Scout leaders, counselors, and all others to “be nice” and be good little gentlemen. Roughhousing is dangerous. Talking out of turn is bad. Don’t run. Stay inside the lines. Don’t risk. Don’t touch. Put that down. Don’t go there. Don’t walk there. Don’t talk to her. Girls like good safe nice kind polite gentle, soft men. Girls want you to show your emotions and tell them all about yourself and how you feeeeeel. Girls want you to give them everything, pay for everything, and go all in right now.

    Your sexual urges are not only bad, but perverted and immoral and sick and illegal. Don’t try to date anyone at work; you’ll get fired for sexual harassment. You get one chance to ask her out and if she says no you must never ever ever even look at her again. You’re a potential rapist. Let’s just be friends. I just don’t think of you THAT WAY. You’re such a nice guy; you’re gonna be a great husband for some lucky girl someday! I don’t really wanna get serious with a guy right now. Why can’t guys be like you? You’re so NICE.

    2. A woman who loses a man from whom she sought commitment at least has the skills to attract another man. She has demonstrated she knows how to attract men. Most of the time, in order to attract male interest, any woman at a 4 or above need only exist. She need only look her best, go to a public place with one or two friends, and simply be there. Her very presence will generate male interest. In other words, ladies, all you gotta do is show up and look like you give two shits, and men will be there for the asking.

    Opus cogently pointed out: She can cry for a few days. When she is done, she’ll dust herself off. With the help of her BFFs, she’ll dry her eyes, get made up, put on her little black dress, and head out to the bars for a night out. She’ll feel better because she can get whatever she wants. Want some attention? Hit the dance floor. If it’s validation she wants, men will offer her drinks. She can numb the pain from her breakup for free by hitting up chumps who will willingly buy her drinks and get her soused. She can go home with the most attractive man who presents himself, and get sex (validation. You go grrrrl — you still got it, honey! Fuck that loser ex-BF! Go for the hawwwwt, girlfrieeeeeennnnnd!) Or she can turn down the proposition and still get her validation dose (I coulda fucked him. Yeah, I still got it.) Or, if she doesn’t want any of that from men, she can just be with her GFs who will commiserate, cry, pat her head, coo, and say “Oh, there, there, dearie. It’s going to be all right.”

    As for men, their disadvantages mean that generating interest isn’t nearly as easy. Most blue pill men get into relationships by simple dumb luck. They have no idea how or why they were able to attract the interest of some girl. They fell into it, and when it ends, they pick themselves up by trying to do the same things they did before, often to no avail. He has to do all the work and bear all the risk, for very, very little return. He is told exactly the wrong things to do: invest heavily immediately. Talk about his feelings. Lean in so he can actually talk to her and hear her responses. Pay for everything. Return her texts immediately. And he is simply invisible to most women, because he is an average man. His friends will offer an encouraging word, but not much else. He’ll go to the bars and nightclubs. Most of the time he will get no interest from women at all. He will try to meet girls but will fail almost all the time. Unless he is taught a completely different paradigm, he’s doomed to make the same mistakes over and over and over again.

    3. Women don’t invest emotionally in men the way men invest emotionally in women. Once a man invests emotionally, he’s all in. He has his entire life wrapped up in her. It is probably a function of his sense of responsibility and his drive to achieve and succeed. Once he commits, he is responsible. So when the relationship fails it is intensely personal for him. He was given a responsibility and he either did not or could not carry it out. And what’s more, a man’s value is judged on his successes and failures. His failure with a woman or with a relationship is a profound one, because it means he failed on a very basic, personal, intimate level. It means he is a failure as a human being, a failure as a man. And if he has children, he has failed in his responsibility to care for and protect them. He cannot protect them if he does not live with them and can supervise their education, upbringing and training.

    But a woman is not called on to invest or commit. She does do so, but it’s not her primary role. Her primary role is to give and grant sexual access. Sounds sexist, but her sexuality and sexual access is the primary thing of value she brings to the relationship. My theory is that she can get over a relationship or marriage failure in a few months at the outside simply because whatever she has invested or committed to the relationship, she can take it with her if and when she leaves. What is it that she invests and commits? Her body. Her sexuality. That is hers and hers alone, and can be withdrawn from an unworthy man and then conferred on whomever she deems worthy at that moment.

    But a man invests his time, his money, his expertise and his resources. IMportantly, these are the main things of value he brings to the relationship or marriage. His time, once spent, is gone forever. His money? Same thing. He cannot recover time or money wasted and/or spent. His expertise and resources are given to the estranged woman, who benefited from them when she was with him; and now takes them when she leaves.

    So these are the main differences, I think, and it’s why incel status impacts a man much, much harder than a failure to secure commitment from a worthy man impacts a woman.

    • #45 by Matthew on November 20, 2012 - 4:47 PM

      Men serve the time … without doing the crime.

    • #46 by M3 on November 20, 2012 - 7:55 PM

      Deti. Can i say this on behalf of every guy here.

      WHY DON’T YOU EFFIN BLOG MAN?!?!?!

      Like serial. This comment above IS a worthy blog post on it’s own, much less a comment.

      I forget who’s running DetiNation.. please tack this comment onto that site. Plz plz plz!

    • #47 by anonympus on November 22, 2012 - 9:43 PM

      Women also invest – their time and body.
      However, most of them invest that very poorly.

  16. #48 by Spacetraveller on November 20, 2012 - 3:10 PM

    Deti, Lost Sailor,

    I hear you loud and clear.
    I have been reading your comments over and over to see if I missed something.

    It seems to me that that the real reason we seem to be talking past each other is simple.

    And thanks to Koevoet for providing some definitions that help say what I am trying to say.

    With all due respect, if you read my original comment again, you will see what I am getting at.

    “I might never understand fully what M3 went through, but I hope I have enough imagination to empathise nonetheless.”

    Vicomte’s and Ahab’s comments of ‘you don’t’ appear to agree with my own assessment of things. That indeed I don’t. In fact I think I go further than that and declare that I might never .
    The truth is, I never said ‘I did’.

    My use of the word ‘empathy’ and ‘sympathy’ may have taken you down a path of getting the mesage that I know all about M3′s pain. Which is where I might have gone ‘wrong’.

    What I said was, that I was trying in my own way to understand, but I might never get there.
    And Vicomte correctly points out I shouldn’t try. Fair enough. Got it.

    I can see you don’t like the idea of ‘empathy’ or ‘sympathy’ in this context. I got that message already.

    I also would like to refute the claim Lost Sailor makes that I turned this into something about women. That is patently untrue, but I see how he got that idea.

    Let me clarify: when I say that I try to understand, using the equivalent situation as applies to women, it is only because that is the only option available to me, as a woman. Precisely because I cannot and do not have experiences of this nature as a man, I can only use experiences from my own little ‘database’ as a woman to help me.

    But even using this (albeit somewhat inadequate) proxy does not prevent me from focusing on the fact that I am trying to connect with a man’s, not a woman’s experience. I never lost sight of that!
    Make sense?

    “Just say that you’re sorry he is hurting.”

    It is helpful to point out that I offer ‘empathy’ only because I know he hurts.
    How deeply he hurts, I do not claim to know.

    But certainly the ‘crime’ I seem to have committed is in the transmission of the message, not the messgae itself, I now see.

    Because believe it or not, in my mind, “I know you are hurting” is too ‘raw’, too ‘unfinished’, as I alluded to Vicomte earlier. It feels incredibly incomplete to me! And as such, I would find it hard to stop there.
    It feels a bit too ‘masculine’ to me. Which is ‘normal’ given that I am indeed a woman.

    As I promised Vicomte, I might have to work on this in the future – certainly when commenting here, and perhaps elsewhere, including in real life. But for now, I merely try to dissect my thought processes for you so you see how I came to arrive at my original comment.

    To use Koevoet’s example of someone’s parent dying, it would not be enough for me to say to them, ‘Sorry to hear your Mum or Dad died…’
    I couldn’t stop there.
    I would add, ‘I am soooo very sorry. How terrible, this news. How awful. I feel…(whatever it is I feel) for you… I hope…’ and I would also offer to do something practical that would ease the logistical burden of having to arrange a funeral…and so on and so forth…

    Give you an example as to the ‘delving into the databse’ thing I describe above, let’s say I am talking to someone who lost their Mum. (I should point out I have lost my Dad, Mum still alive).
    If I ever said to that person, “I know how you feel”, it would be because I have delved into my ‘Dad died’ database and felt the pain, so I would feel as though I could offer some ‘empathy’. But that person could turn around (as you do) and say, what do you know of losing a mother? Which would be fair, because they are right, I haven’t lost a mother. No matter how painful the loss of my father was, the loss of a mother might well be viewed as an entirely different experience. Got it!

    Perhaps that person would be annoyed/irritated by my reaction to their news, but I hope not. I would sincerely hope that they at least would not be offended.

    “I might never understand fully what you are going through, but I hope I have enough imagination to empathise nonetheless” is of course way more wordy, than I know you are hurting but it seemed more appropriate to me (reasons given above) and I sincerely believed it conveyed the right message.

    But if it irks you because it implies something else (that was not intended on my part), then of course I have a duty to you to restore harmony.
    One good way to do this would be to apologise.
    So I do that. I do apologise.
    (One thing I have learned in life is that whether or not you intended to, if you offend someone (even if accidentally!) and they tell you so, it is up to you to restore the balance. People feel what they feel, whether or not you intended it that way with your communication with them).

    And now I hope M3 himself does not feel as if I patronised HIM.
    That of course was never my intent, as I hope is clear.

    • #49 by LostSailor on November 20, 2012 - 6:23 PM

      Space, I’ll give you credit for at least trying to understand. Keep going; you might get there eventually. But as hard as it is to understand, men who have been through this experience don’t want your empathy or sympathy. It does nothing for them and they have no use for it.

    • #50 by M3 on November 20, 2012 - 8:31 PM

      “And now I hope M3 himself does not feel as if I patronised HIM.
      That of course was never my intent, as I hope is clear.”

      While it could be seen as patronizing.. i never felt it from you. In fact i don’t think i take it as such from any redpill woman trying to grok what a male incel goes through. I appreciate the *acknowledgement* that something terrible did happen, even if it’s beyond comprehension due to our bio/sexual differences.

      I didn’t write the post to bludgeon women with (i didn’t even realize how far reaching it would go…) i wrote it for

      - men who could relate/trapped in the same to take action/break free/alter course
      - women to wake up to a world right in front of them that they never ever see

      “I reacted to a sad story.”
      And i for one am grateful for it. It shows you are human. I cannot say likewise for a great many feminists who would gleefully be dancing over my corpse telling me how much i deserved my fate.

  17. #51 by Spacetraveller on November 20, 2012 - 3:38 PM

    Ah, I just saw Deti’s comment beginning with
    “Spacetraveller offered this”.

    “I suppose this is probably the closest analogy to male incel status and repeated failures in that regard.”

    Yes, Deti, this is exactly my point. This is the closest analogy a woman (for example, me) can make when faced with the description of a situation like M3′s. And I do agree that this STILL does not approach M3′s situation.

    But how else can I think about his situation unless I can picture in my mind this female version I suggest? Do you see that this is a helpful way for me to get anywhere close to understanding his post?

    You have to understand that my mentioning it was in no way to diminish the male experience, but simply to help ME reflect on HIS situation.

    This is what the term ‘by any means necessary’ refers to, I guess. I am using any means necessary to get to a near-impossible place.
    I admit to myself that I won’t reach it even as I do my futile exercise.
    But I tried.
    And failed.
    So now I really know it was an impossible ask of myself. There.

    And for what it’s worth, I do agree with the rest of your comment. It is true. Or at least that is what I have observed too. Except in a tiny minority of women who do not fit this mould you describe. (But that tiny minority are not statistically relevant, yes).

    Stingray,

    Ah, I finally looked up ‘bloodlust’. For some bizarre reason, I was thinking it had something to do with sexual lust, but I now see it means a desire for ‘bloodshed’ in the sense of being in a rage.

    OK. I shall take your word for it. And JV’s. I honestly cannot say I have experienced this. And of course, I never said I had.
    But I gratefully accept your point.
    If I ever experience it, at least I would have been warned about it :P

    • #52 by Matthew on November 20, 2012 - 4:50 PM

      Sanity check, Spacetraveller: Of all the words spilt by the various commenters, how much proportionately is made up of you babbling about how you feel?

      • #53 by Ahab on November 20, 2012 - 7:19 PM

        Matthew, I saw it too, but this should be acceptable to us red-pilled males. This is the female thought process. I wonder if females also get as frustrated of our rational arguemnts….

        Space, I saw this comment just now. I’ve already replied to you somewhere up there but it seems to me that you got the point already by now.

      • #54 by Spacetraveller on November 20, 2012 - 7:53 PM

        Matthew,

        My feelings were irrelevant until they were made an issue.
        Here is the sequence of events again, just for you:

        I reacted to a sad story.
        Others reacted to may reaction and challenged it.
        I staretd to explain myself, point by point.

        If no-one had reacted to my reaction (which consisted of my feelings), this explosion of this thread would not have happened.

        My feelings were called into question, see?.
        So I have taken great pains to explain them. As was required of me.

        Yes I write long posts. So it would appear that there is a high number of words explaining my feelings, yes.

        That does not make me insane (but I have no problem accepting the accusation of insanity – you wouldn’t be the first to imply this).

        But it certainly makes me unusually prolific on a blog that I generally only rarely comment on, I grant you that.

        Any other questions I may help you with?

      • #55 by garrett on November 25, 2012 - 12:43 PM

        +1

        plus the constant use of “I”, Spacetraveller we’re meant to be discussing M3, not you! Please give it a rest.

  18. #56 by just visiting on November 20, 2012 - 4:10 PM

    I can’t help thinking that the rage. warping, going cold inside,and despair sounds an awful lot like what some of my my friends have described when getting used sexually by men. Over and over again through out the years.

    Sorry if it sounds patronizing.

    • #57 by Matthew on November 20, 2012 - 4:55 PM

      No, not at all. It sounds like you despise men and have no capacity for empathy.

      On the one hand: a man cannot get any woman to touch him, at all.

      On the other hand: you know several women who, out of a large pool of available mates, decide to spread their legs for men of bad character.

      • #58 by just visiting on November 20, 2012 - 5:08 PM

        On the other hand: you know several women who, out of a large pool of available mates, decide to spread their legs for men of bad character.

        Yep. Must be a slut.

        It sounds like you despise men and have no capacity for empathy.

        Keep spinning….

      • #59 by Matthew on November 20, 2012 - 6:18 PM

        Note who introduced the word “slut”.

      • #60 by just visiting on November 20, 2012 - 7:29 PM

        Educate me on what you were implying. My coyness meter must be broken.

      • #61 by Spacetraveller on November 20, 2012 - 8:16 PM

        “No, not at all. It sounds like you despise men and have no capacity for empathy.”

        Matthew,

        You cannot be serious!
        Where is MacEnroe when you need him?!

        What???????

        No empathy??

        You mean….you want empathy????

        Do you hear this, Ahab?

        Make up your minds, gentlemen.
        This is getting confusing.

        Oh, whilst you are making up your minds, I shall keep my empathy, you know, just in case you do decide that you want it afterall.

        Look, the saddest part of this whole thread is that a man shares his sorrows with the rest of us, and for no reason other than ‘I am part of the enemy camp’, I am challenged for reacting in the only way that is natural to me. A female/feminine way.

        With empathy.

        My empathy might be patronising but at least it is there.
        For some of you (men), you don’t get to choose when a woman shows some empathy. Because it is non-existent in some of the women you meet.

        That’s the underlying problem today.

        Whilst I take your points on board, know that I am not the problem.
        Or at least the problem I pose to you is not the biggest one you’ve got.

      • #62 by just visiting on November 20, 2012 - 8:49 PM

        I was thinking the same thing.

        Perhaps we should be processing M3′s post through the lens of logic, abstraction, theory, and for good measure……calculus.

    • #63 by deti on November 20, 2012 - 5:06 PM

      just visiting:

      usually I like your comments.

      But this one comes across as snarky, cold and unfeeling.

      At least your friends were able to feel the touch of a member of the opposite sex, even if that touch was fleeting, and even if they selected men of bad character for the favor.

      At the risk of sounding patronizing, your friends probably could have avoided their plights had they spent a little time assessing the character of the men they chose to spread for, BEFORE doing said spreading.

      • #64 by just visiting on November 20, 2012 - 5:15 PM

        Deti, it’s not meant to be cold and unfeeling. I think that it lies to the heart of our different wiring. Look unlike most women, I had experienced incel during my marriage. Hubby had a nasty pill addiction at the time.

        But for most women, what M3 describes is felt by being used sexually.

      • #65 by Matthew on November 20, 2012 - 6:19 PM

        “Look unlike most women, I had experienced incel during my marriage. Hubby had a nasty pill addiction at the time.”

        Solipsism: when it can’t not be about you.

      • #66 by Crank on November 20, 2012 - 6:34 PM

        just visiting, I think that would be the analogy, except most of those women (from what I can tell) tend to experience that by being repeatedly duped to punch above their weight – they are taken in by guys who are above them in the mating heirarchy, and who won’t commit to them but will use them for sex. They could usually avoid this by finding someone in their own league, but they aren’t attracted to those in their own league. The old way of handling this problem was that women didn’t have sex until marriage (or at least well into the relationship).

        While men can sometimes exhibit the same problem of being too picky for what they should merit (in which case they will simply be incelibate effectively by choice), I think a lot of men experience absolute rejection by women in their own league and even below – because women seem to have some floor below which they don’t experience attraction, even if they are below that floor themselves. In addition, those men seem to have been coached to engage in behaviors that turn women off. So, to put it differently, there is something your friends could do about it through the choices they make. The author of that post did not see any way around it. He was desparate for sex and physical touch and acceptance – dying for it – and would have taken it from just about any woman with a pulse who wasn’t 300 pounds overweight, but he couldn’t get it.

        Having said that, I refuse to believe that he actually believed that women wouldn’t care that he was doughy and overweight and had zits all over his face. The blue pill does not pretend to teach anyone that. But I do understand the rest of the lies he bought.

        Lastly, I disagree with the men here who insist that no woman could “empathize”. I can’t personally relate to the horror of forcible rape (i.e., “legitimate rape” lol). Even if a war pig raped me at gun point, I would probably be over it after a few good showers, assuming I was able to get it up for her. But I do believe I can empathize with a woman who went through it. Doesn’t mean I can understand everything about it, but I still empathize.

      • #67 by just visiting on November 20, 2012 - 7:49 PM

        Oh good lord. Now I’m an attention whore.
        I seek to understand. To do so, I’m looking and feeling for every frame of reference at my disposal.

      • #68 by just visiting on November 20, 2012 - 7:52 PM

        @ Crank
        Agreed.

      • #69 by M3 on November 20, 2012 - 8:42 PM

        @Crank

        “I refuse to believe that he actually believed that women wouldn’t care that he was doughy and overweight and had zits all over his face.”

        Just for clarification.. i did know i had problems. (i had acne, but i was skinny, not fat. scrawny is more apt) Inside i KNEW these were issues that i should address, but because i was constantly being fed a diet of ‘be yourself’ ‘they should like you for who you are’ ‘its whats on the inside that counts’, they kept programming a vicious logic loop in my head.

        10 Do i fix problem?
        20 They should like me for who i am on the inside.
        30 If i fix problem they are superficial and false.
        40 Refuse to fix problem.
        50 But you aren’t getting any traction.
        60 GOTO 10
        END

        And agree with the Empathy debate. Very few people on this planet had someone they’re related to die on 9-11. But for a day, the whole world stopped. Empathy brought the planet to a halt.

        I dare say, if more women (read non-redpill women) had more empathy and ability to put themselves into men’s shoes/lives/positions.. i might never have had to write that post.

      • #70 by ricosuaveguapo on November 21, 2012 - 8:54 AM

        “Solipsism: when it can’t not be about you.”

        Awesome.

    • #71 by LostSailor on November 20, 2012 - 6:29 PM

      JV, as others have indicated, women who feel anger at being used sexually by men have only themselves to blame. They had the choice whether to spread their legs and if they did it early and frequently, they invited what they got. The main point is that their anger will be directed at the “bad” men that “used” them when the anger more properly belongs aimed at themselves. But that would force them to confront their own bad choices and behavior.

      The problem of incel to men is that it’s based on a society that fed them lies, that despite their best efforts, those lies sentenced them to years of celibacy and a void of human contact. As M3′s post showed, once they realize the lies, some of their rage is aimed outward at women, feminists, and society, but it’s also directed inward and usually results in serious self-examination and hopefully a strong motivation to change themselves.

      • #72 by just visiting on November 20, 2012 - 6:55 PM

        Lost, to a certain extant, I can empathize with the incel issue. As a wife who went through it, the problem wasn’t just my husband’s plumbing. There was a whole lot of passive aggressive stuff going on with him too, such as not telling me why he couldn’t function. The thought of possibly not having sex again made it something that became an obsession. I experienced a glacialness that kept growing. My self worth started taking a beating. I craved touch. Choice would require going outside of the marriage. But IC still didn’t produce the kind of rage that it produces in men. The comparrison isn’t the same.

        Yes, you were lied to. So were a lot of women who were told that their sexual experience would actually be welcomed by their husbands. Who were told that they could have sex the same as a man. Who were never instructed about sexual bonding issues. Who are still under the impression that the only way they can get a relationship is with sex. That femininity is weak. And that strong and independant will make them attractive.

        And such women end up with a lot of the emotions that M3 describes. That is the only comparrison that I make.

    • #73 by koevoet on November 20, 2012 - 9:29 PM

      Just visiting, I can empathize with your friend. I can only imagine how it must feel to be used sexually. I had an experience once that perhaps you can relate to.

      See, when I was young and naive I had a bad experience with an ill-tempered cur. He bit me on the cheek something wicked,he did. My grandma was very kind, cooing softly, comforting me through my bitter hate-filled tears. My grandfather was a bit more stern. He put iodine on my cheek and bandaged it up, I was bleeding like a motheryouknowwhat. He also offered some advice. “Koevy,” he asked me, “you aren’t going to go pulling the doggy’s tail anymore are you?”

      Well, I learned from this experience. Sure, we all make mistakes and sometimes we continue in our bad habits, but it really is a matter of finding the right type to be around. I have a beautiful little black bitch with a wide toothy smile, and velveteen ears that point forward when she sees a rabbit. I still have the urge to pull the doggy’s tail, but I found one much more obliging and forgiving than that high-strung Schnauzer. She gives me an odd expression but leaves it at that.

      Perhaps you could tell your friend that she needs to stop going after high-strung curs and find someone with a nicer temperament. Perhaps she’d listen?

      Or not. What do you think, 3M?

      • #74 by just visiting on November 20, 2012 - 9:37 PM

        Lol,
        Yes, but friendships can be a bit sticky on that point. I’m sure you have a few blue pill friends kicking about, no? And their reaction when you fed them the red pill? It doesn’t mean that their pain and rage isn’t real. Even if we think that they should know better after we talk to them. There’s decades of conditioning at work.

      • #75 by koevoet on November 20, 2012 - 10:57 PM

        Hell, I need to get the red pill all the way down my gullet! But yeah, I have noticed looks of scorn for pointing out what should be obvious,

    • #76 by Vicomte on November 21, 2012 - 12:23 AM

      Dearest Spacetraveller:

      As a final illustration:

      If your original comment was a 1 on the scale of patronization, JV’s would be a 10.

      Thus endeth the lesson.

  19. #77 by deti on November 20, 2012 - 5:27 PM

    Another thing that strikes me here:

    1. M3′s testimony is the male answer to the “where are all the good men” articles and the “I’m 39 and unmarried and my bio-clock is roaring in my ears and needaman needababyneedamanneedababyneedababyneedaman nownownownowNOWNOWNOW!” articles.

    2. With the exception of Stingray, most of the women commenting on this thread seem to have an almost pathological need to show that either (a) they can empathize and sympathize with M3; or (b) the pain of a pump & dump is just as bad or worse than the pain of incel.

    Umm. no. A woman has a choice. She can either have the pump & dump or not. She can refuse the man if she doesn’t want to risk a pump & dump.

    The man has no choice. He’d KILL for a pump & dump. Hell, he’d give his left nut for a handjob from a chubby 4.

    With all due respect, ladies, give it up. You aren’t going to win this one. Involuntary celibacy is orders of magnitude worse than a pump & dump or being used sexually. She has a choice. He doesn’t.

    • #78 by Spacetraveller on November 20, 2012 - 6:02 PM

      Deti, Deti, Deti,

      Don’t take this the wrong way!

      This is done in good faith and in support of JV’s latest comment, which, I think was in support of my comment about a woman’s situation.

      “Umm. no. A man has a choice. He can either wife her up or not. He can refuse the woman if he doesn’t want to risk divorce-rape down the line.

      The woman has no choice. She’d KILL for a commitment. Heavens, she’d give her left breast for the promise of a commitment from a no-confidence beta.”

      Might you be ‘projecting’ a little?
      You talk of sex as if it were as coveted by women as it is by men. You know this is simply not true. You may have even said so yourself at some point.
      And if it were, you couldn’t then accuse me of not understanding M3′s situation.
      I accept your pointing out my lack of understanding of M3′s situation only on condition that you return to the frame that sex CANNOT be as important to me (or any other woman) as it is to him (or any other man).

      “Involuntary celibacy is orders of magnitude worse than a pump & dump or being used sexually.”

      Believe it or not, I agree with this!

      A woman should protect herself from ‘being used sexually’. But if she fails through her own fault, she should only blame herself. Harsh but true. I accept.

      This post is about M3, a man. Agreed. When I stuck to discussing my reaction to him (a man), I got erm, a talking-to.

      It is you who have switched to talking about women now, and so I hope you don’t mind if I follow suit…

      • #79 by just visiting on November 20, 2012 - 6:38 PM

        Thank you.

        And I agree. A woman should protect herself from such things. But some women seem to be under the impression that sex will get them commitment. And some men are under the impression that committing their time will get them sex. And pain seems to be the out come.

        Anyhow, I’ll leave it at that.

      • #80 by atahualpa on November 20, 2012 - 7:48 PM

        I came out of lurking to say this: seriously? You have made this whole comment thread about you, how you feel, and how you feel about how other people feel about how you feel. The belle of the ball, look at me!

        I think you may have made your points, and I doubt you will understand the counterpoints if you haven’t so far. On the off chance that you can, you may want to consider reading back to Deti’s earlier comments. She covered all of the bases if you would be willing to hear.

      • #81 by Emma the Emo on November 22, 2012 - 2:08 PM

        Er, I dunno. I don’t covet sex for the sake of sex, but if I had a choice, I would choose life with “sex+no commitment” over a lifetime of “celibacy+no commitment”. I don’t know what other women would pick, but I imagine the same, if they think about it.

  20. #82 by deti on November 20, 2012 - 5:28 PM

    “M3′s testimony is the male answer to the “where are all the good men” articles and the “I’m 39 and unmarried and my bio-clock is roaring in my ears and needaman needababyneedamanneedababyneedababyneedaman nownownownowNOWNOWNOW!” articles.”

    What I mean is that men are speaking here from the heart. The difference is that men have legitimate gripes with the system’; and more importantly, you will never, ever, EVER see an article like this in the Atlantic Monthly or in any MSM publication.

    • #83 by M3 on November 20, 2012 - 8:54 PM

      “you will never, ever, EVER see an article like this in the Atlantic Monthly or in any MSM publication.”

      because barring disfigurement.. the only way a woman could end up being incel is by being so picky and punching so far above her weight she’d be clinically insane.

      • #84 by BC on November 21, 2012 - 3:43 AM

        because barring disfigurement..

        You are forgetting Internet Rule #34.

      • #85 by M3 on November 21, 2012 - 9:13 AM

        lol. never heard of Rule #34. do tell.

      • #86 by koevoet on November 21, 2012 - 3:25 PM

        If it exists, there is porn of it.

  21. #87 by NMH on November 20, 2012 - 6:02 PM

    My dry spell was about as long and lasted during the same time period. Very destructive. I guess for me the tough part was the loneliness and feeling that I was somehow different, but not knowing/understanding how I was different. Now I know the only way I was different was I was shy, earnest, and with women too up front with my feelings for them. In essence: I had anti-game.

    Over the years, my anti-game just got worse, and I really started to get nervous around them, until one year in my late 20′s I was lucky to meet a hot cougar that I didnt seem to scare off.

    My sex drive is not what it used to be, and my gf is displeased with this because, she tells me, it makes her feel undesired. I think only women in their 50′s (like my gf) when they are starting to lose their beauty and charm can only then understand the hell some of omega guys go through when they are young.

    IMO, it would be better if we could reproduce by binary fission. Human sexuality is hell for somke of us.

  22. #88 by taterearl on November 20, 2012 - 7:10 PM

    I read the article and I must say I can relate. My dry spell fortunately has been ending once I swallowed the red pill. Now that’s not saying I slay women yet…but I am more active at going for what I want and I’m getting better at it. I don’t wait anymore for “the perfect moment”. Heck in blue pill land I was scared to even kiss a girl after my last long term gf tore out my heart. The last few months after swallowing the red pill…it has been easy. Rejection is more like tearing a band aid off than getting your heart stomped on.

    If a woman wants to try to relate think of this scenario…go up and construct a conversation to a man you don’t know. Try and ask him out…get turned down 6-7 times out of ten. Contact that man hoping he’ll respond. Set up a date. Put up with dates that flake because the man found something better to do or just wasn’t feeling it. The dates you do get you pick a spot to go, you pay for it, you make the first move to touch, kiss, have sex…where at any time the man can reject you for “any reason”…even a reason that doesn’t involve you. While this whole time you have to keep your emotions in check otherwise you’ll be alone. This is why men have to have strong emotions and an even stronger suppression of them and the wherewithal to keep going. This is why women can’t and won’t ever relate.

  23. #89 by Retrenched on November 20, 2012 - 8:35 PM

    From F. Roger Devlin’s “The Feminine Counter Revolution and Its Limitations” – fits perfectly here I think.

    ……………………………
    “Romantic young men will want to conceive of the “worthiness” they must demonstrate as a moral quality—as being a gentleman, in fact. Young women are more likely to interpret it to mean that they “deserve” a romance novel hero. To them, “maintaining high standards” will suggest that they should keep their erotic blinders at the narrowest possible setting. ….

    “This is not modesty but delusion. The reason men found wives before the sexual revolution was not that they were “worthier” than the date-raping sex-maniacs of today (as many male conservative commentators imply), but because women did not have their
    expectations formed and their imaginations corrupted by the likes of Cosmo and Gossip Girl. Popular culture’s message of limitless gratification has got ignorant girls so worked up over sex that Casanova himself would not be able to satisfy them. Our author’s vague talk of “worthiness” and “high standards” does nothing to counteract this tendency, and may reinforce it. ….

    “In this book as in her last one, Shalit offers no thoughts about what is to be done with the majority of men who are less than tailspinningly attractive. This, however, is a critical question for any society. It is not simply a matter of hurt feelings. Frankly, no one has ever cared very much about the feelings of such men, as they themselves learn early and well. ….

    “The women the author describes as struggling to get their “sex partners” to commit would be surprised to learn that the indifference of these men to their needs and feelings is precisely paralleled by their own indifference to the majority of men, who remain outside their field of vision. The chief point of distinction, in fact, is that the women’s unhappiness is largely the result of their own poor judgment and behavior; the men’s often is not.”
    …………………………….

    Nailed it perfectly.

  24. #90 by Senior Beta on November 20, 2012 - 8:40 PM

    M3′s post has to be the most depressing and painful thing I have ever read on the Web. But, like Deti said, it’s probably the most important. So I will copy it for my two sons. And get back to the funny Roosh stories.

  25. #91 by Cheshirecat on November 21, 2012 - 12:44 AM

    Hell, I squirmed when reading this story…and got very angry, because I once LIVED this horrid merry-go-round. My InCel period lasted from high school until I was nearly 30 years old. I was the “nice guy”, I was the guy who would think nothing of sending flowers, of offering support, and burying my own sexual desires. I was not the jock, the bad boy, the “ripped” meathead…all the types of things women say they don’t like about men, but who they eventually crawl into bed with. I have since changed my ways…though my heart is a bit more callous for the journey.

    Women cannot understand this trauma anymore than a man could understand some women’s agonizing decision to have an abortion or not. Or to have a miscariage.

  26. #92 by Cheshirecat on November 21, 2012 - 12:48 AM

    Recently, however, it dawned on me: Whether they realize it or not, these women are NOT complaining men in general. They are complaining about the small percentage of men they’re attracted to.

    That is precisely it in a nutshell.

  27. #93 by Cheshirecat on November 21, 2012 - 1:04 AM

    JV, as others have indicated, women who feel anger at being used sexually by men have only themselves to blame. They had the choice whether to spread their legs

    This x 1000. Yeah, it sucked I’m sure…but they at least had A CHOICE! Most men don’t even get to choose which road to go down. The “be yourself” propaganda is like a fucking “ROAD CLOSED – DETOUR, BRIDGE OUT” sign in front of your face.

    • #94 by just visiting on November 21, 2012 - 1:36 AM

      Yes, they have a choice whether to spread their legs. We could also argue that M3 had a choice to stop being mr.nice guy when it wasn’t working for him. Both situations were learned.
      And it misses the point.
      One is warped in how he is trying to obtain sex. The ultimate celibacy is very damaging. The other is warped in how she is trying to obtain love and commitment. The ultimate legacy of being a cum recepticle is damaging.

      Human beings have a lot more similarities than disimilarities. And there’s usually a complement in there some where. It may not be the exact same thing over the exact same reason, but a person can usually get a general idea.

      I don’t have to be an incel or a carousel rider to see the similarities in the stories passed to me.

      Over the years, I’ve had friends who have been suicidal because of self loathing. Mocked, reputations ruined, doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. despairing that they will ever be touched by a hand that loves them. Convinced that there’s something unlovable about them. Children they will never have. Families that they will never have. Cutting, eating disorders,medications. Self esteem so low on the inside, and bravado on the outside. The effects lingering long after they end up in a relationship.

      Yes, I see certain similarities.
      Perhaps not perfect analagies. But generally enough to connect the dots.

      • #95 by LostSailor on November 21, 2012 - 1:46 PM

        The point is that the Manosphere isn’t really concerned with the pain of women in the SMP. But you’ve pointed out the issue without properly naming it. The lies of feminism injure women just as much as they injure men. Feminism told women that they could fuck like men without consequence. It’s a lie. In fact most of feminism is about actions without consequences and rights without responsibilities. As I wrote above, the friends who are feeling the pain you describe have only themselves to blame. I have only a little sympathy for them…

      • #96 by just visiting on November 21, 2012 - 2:03 PM

        I don’t point it out so that the manosphere can throw a pity party for these women. Or feel their pain. Understanding is based on common ground. The women in this thread were conducting a bit of thinking out loud to find that common ground to gain a better understanding. Everyone has “that friend.” The thread got hijacked by men getting their outrage fix over these musings.

        It doesn’t surprise me. The female friends going through this tell me that I couldn’t possibly understand their pain either, so mysterious and complex that one would have to live it.
        Anyways. I’m done with it. The men scold either way. Empathy is lacking from us or empathy is patronizing. Seeking understanding is patronizing. Not seeking understanding is patronizing. Approaching with feelings is patronizing. Approaching with logic is patronizing.

        Done.

      • #97 by koevoet on November 21, 2012 - 3:41 PM

        JV has a point. Us men are able to look at things logically. Many of us feel bitter towards that friend of hers because we were the ones getting passed over while she was riding the carousel. We can bitch about her all day, but I’ll leave bitching to the professionals. Where do we go from here? Does your friend have any idea that what she’s doing is screwing herself (heh)? The manosphere is here to get men to unplug. What is there for women? They have been lied to for a couple generations now. It is time for women to start unplugging as well, me thinks.

        As a side note, Dalrock has a post up that shows that some women do see that their lives aren’t as grand as they femifascist mythology tells them it should be. Now we just need to start making women accept responsibility for their actions and begin correcting themselves.

        MGTOW is and should be a last ditch lifestyle. I do think that we need to start getting women to unfuck themselves.

      • #98 by LostSailor on November 21, 2012 - 7:00 PM

        Seeking understanding is patronizing

        No, seeking understanding is not patronizing, it’s encouraged. But I can’t see where any of your comments on this thread were about seeking understanding. Instead, every one of your comments tried to turn the discussion to how women feel about their broken relationships. Even this comment had to drag in mention of your female friends.

        Understanding is based on common ground. The women in this thread were conducting a bit of thinking out loud to find that common ground to gain a better understanding.

        Not even remotely true. Accommodation and consensus is based on common ground. Understanding in this case would involve you thinking outside your solipsism. Your “musings” are about expressing your opinion and trying to convince the men here to agree with you about the pain your female friends feel. However the post was not about the pain women feel, but about the pain men feel.

        Women who are genuinely trying to understand are usually welcome in the Manosphere. Women who try to turn the discussion to one all about the wimmenz are confronted forthrightly. You say that you are just seeking a frame of reference to understand the experience of men, yet that frame seems to be solely the experience of women. You won’t understand anything until you can step out of that frame.

        Understanding requires listening and reflection. Apparently all you heard was “scolding.” A telling choice of words. Men explain; women scold. I note that no one in this thread reply to your comments made any personal attacks, but commented on what you wrote, some more strongly than others. That’s not scolding, that’s how men discuss and debate.

      • #99 by just visiting on November 22, 2012 - 3:12 PM

        Lost, I already said that it wasn’t about feeling her pain. Or making it all about teh wimminz. It was about drawing parrallels. Because most women, even if they have experienced in cel wouldn’t experience it like a man. If you truly expect women to gain understanding of something outside of their experience, you are going to have to allow for the extra steps in processing.

      • #100 by Emma the Emo on November 23, 2012 - 10:39 AM

        Actually, I kinda see what you’re saying. Those women who just follow what society tells them are in some ways like men who do the same. I mean, my sex life started with a slutty choice to have sex for fun. I mean that’s what we all do, right?.. Then I found out it can have consequences I don’t want to have (thru the ‘sphere).
        What the men in the manosphere usually ask sluts is this: “If you keep getting pumped and dumped, why did you go back to the same men?”. True, but people are bad at learning from consequences when it comes to romance and sex. Niceguys similarly didn’t stop acting too nice after 100th failure with women. Why doesn’t it occur to niceguys and sluts to try differently? Against society’s accepted truths?
        Although, I’ve met both women who learned the lesson and men too. Some women see who is the player fairly quickly and many men see who actually gets laid fairly quickly too.

      • #101 by LostSailor on November 23, 2012 - 6:41 PM

        it wasn’t about feeling her pain. Or making it all about teh wimminz. It was about drawing parrallels.

        JV, I can only go on what you wrote, whatever your intentions were. Every comment you posted brought the topic around to how women feel about rejection, when that wasn’t the topic. If you’re going to “process” in public on a Manosphere blog, that’s your business. Seems a little presumptuous to demand “extra steps” so you can process…

    • #102 by Richard Cranium on November 23, 2012 - 3:44 PM

      This is one of my biggest pet peeves with women. As stated above they simply have choices we don’t. Even a less than average woman has multiple options an above average guy doesn’t.

      So when they complain that “Every guy I end up with is a jerk” I say no that’s the wrong answer. Every guy you PICK is a jerk so either you love jerks or your picker is broken. You have plenty of chances to pick someone decent from all the potential suitors that approach you on a daily basis and you and only you overlooked all of them for some bullshit superficial reasons (not hot enough, not tall enough, not rich enough, too nerdy, ad nauseum) and went “Hey you, scumbag loser, tag you’re it let’s go!”

      You consciously made the choice to get involved with a substandard guy and are too dumb or ignorant as to how you keep ending up with jerks and I have exactly zero sympathy for these chicks. But I’m just supposed to wait around until she’s done with her “bad boy/thug/player” phase upon which time she’s nothing but damaged goods because her best years have been wasted on such cads and I’m just supposed to mop up the leftovers and be happy for the table scraps (and pay dearly for it) while the guys with the prison records and drug connections got to enjoy the filet minion for free. Fuck that.

  28. #103 by Cheshirecat on November 21, 2012 - 1:06 AM

    And such women end up with a lot of the emotions that M3 describes.

    And cats…don’t forget the cats…

  29. #104 by Cheshirecat on November 21, 2012 - 1:10 AM

    The man has no choice. He’d KILL for a pump & dump. Hell, he’d give his left nut for a handjob from a chubby 4.

    There is a reason why the men laugh and cheer at the scene in “American Pie” after Jim gets “pumped and dumped” by Michelle at the lake party:

    “I was used!” he says with a big grin on his face.

  30. #105 by Fist of Vulkan on November 21, 2012 - 1:23 AM

    This subject is a raw one for me, as I can see a lot of M3′s thoughts going through my head, especially lately as I haven’t mastered my new, red pill frame. (Currently going through another damn slump, but at least my dry spells aren’t that long anymore.)
    Red pill ladies, let me just say thank you for your empathy towards our feelings about this subject. At least you’re trying, though I fear you’ll never get it in the long run.

  31. #106 by Bolkie on November 21, 2012 - 5:50 AM

    I applaud the writer. I wonder how it made him feel to write this and get it of his chest? I am 30 years old and his 12 years of hell sound like my life so far. I recognise all his thoughts on this subject. Except I have been in this predicament for 30 years now. Time to MGTOW? Maybe even start a blog?

  32. #110 by Candide on November 21, 2012 - 6:12 AM

    In this blog:

    Man: I’m fighting cancer.
    Woman: I know how that feels, my toothache is killing me!

  33. #111 by taterearl on November 21, 2012 - 7:08 AM

    The other important thing is…M3′s post brought out that guys who are frustrated about doing the right thing and not getting rewarded…in fact they are getting laughed at and screwed over. We aren’t alone…it just seems that way. It seems like when you are in a dry spell…just viewing guys who are with a lady can throw you into a hate spiral. Players who cut to the front of the line and are rewarded for it make you question everything the society forced you to believe. Lately I’ve seen…

    #1…women’s true nature isn’t all that
    #2…being confident while at the same a bit of a dick gets you a lot farther in this lifetime than being nice…this doesn’t even mean women, this also applies to work, to taking risks
    #3…paraphrasing from Roosh…nobody will give a f about you, be flattered when somebody does
    #4…the red pill makes you see human interactions much differently, things that used to be not be very important are very important

    I’m no longer depressed about women. I go out and do things on my terms…and if they want to join me they are more than welcome to. If not…their loss.

    It’s better to die upon your feet than to live upon your knees.

  34. #112 by Spacetraveller on November 21, 2012 - 5:50 PM

    Lost Sailor and Koevoet,

    I am glad you both engage JV in this discussion about the type of woman she describes.

    I guess she and I came under fire in this thread for mentioning the word ‘woman’ when a MAN’s heartbreaking story was unfolding.

    I get that.
    And I can also see that whilst at least I used the example of a GOOD woman seeking commitment, JV’s ‘damaged woman’ example went down like a lead balloon with you guys.

    This post IS about M3 and HIS story, yes. The fact that my ‘feelings’ and JV’s ‘solipsism’ have been allowed to derail this thread is regrettable, for sure. But we take our opportunities where we can in life, no?.
    I for one have learned a thing or two. As I always do on Manosphere blogs. The kinds of things that I just wouldn’t see or hear anywhere else.

    But if you are willing, I shall give you insight into where JV is coming from (assuming this is now an acceptable place to switch topic once again!)

    She is right in that we all have ‘friends’ like this. Especially *introverted/introspective* women. Like JV.

    Let me explain why.
    I shall paint you a picture. One that you may not have seen from a female point of view before (and you were afraid to ask, lol).

    This is what I have noticed (for what it’s worth):
    (Correct me if I have gotten any part of this picture wrong, JV).

    This woman JV describes is the poster-child of sex-pozzy feminism. Extremely feminine-looking, (at least on the outside) and beautiful, she is aware of her sexual power over men from a young age. Many of you would have encountered her. Whilst her classmates are riding ponies or bikes, she is riding…something else.

    She inevitably indulges in the lifestyle that is counterproductive to her ultimate happiness. Short-term or even longer term ‘thingies’ that go nowhere except to the bedroom.
    She lacks total insight into her own life.
    Zero introspection.
    All fun and no duty. All rights and no responsibilty as someone else mentioned.

    This is why *introverts* like JV attract these women as ‘friends’. When these women are young, they have ‘male beta orbiters’ and herds of equally extroverted ‘party girls’ to be their ‘emotional tampons’. They have no use for the introverted/introspective women, because these latter are ‘no fun’ and are ‘wet blankets’ that will deflate their party bubble.

    When they are older, even the beta orbiters don’t want to know. The alphas certainly are nowhere to be found.
    The few female friends these women usually had when young are exactly like them and are usually not blessed with the gift of introspection either. And they disappear fast when things get tough for Beauty Queen (BQ).

    Who does she turn to for emotional support (and she really needs this by now) when she ‘hits the wall’ well before her time?
    Yes, you guessed it – her introverted sensible female friend who she ignored all these years.

    And this introverted friend (IF), usually fairly compassionate, thinks BQ is sincere about wanting to change. That BQ is truly sick of the party lifestyle…

    9 times out of 10, IF is sadly wrong.

    While IF is busy ruminating over the woes of BQ, BQ is planning her next ‘conquest’ sometimes with IF’s husband in mind…

    While IF tortures herself trying to ‘fix’ BQ, BQ is full of envy and loathing for the glorious tranquility of IF’s life, and will toss her under the bus at the earliest opportunity given half a chance.

    While IF is busy showing empathy for BQ sometimes to the exclusion of more deserving causes, BQ is eyeing up her boyfriend.

    While IF is getting nightmares over BQ’s emotional breakdown, BQ is back in the bed of the last alpha who gave her an incurable STD.

    BQ does not really want to change. But it feels good to unload to IF.
    BQ is trapped in a nasty web of her own making. And it will be hard for her to get out of it (without divine intervention).
    She will certainly take empathy wherever she can get it. If it is not offered, she will seek it… from anywhere. Usually from the sucker female she felt superior to when in her prime.

    JV (who was a very young bride, I think she has mentioned here before) is a prime target for this sort of ‘friend’ who would have laughed at her (no doubt) for tying herself down so young…while her friend was off to explore the fairground/circus of the SMP…

    So I ‘get’ JV’s preoccupation with BQ.
    Unfortunate thread to bring up BQ, though, granted.
    Because no man here can be induced to feel sorry for BQ, especially when just presented with M3′s story.
    And I am beginning to see that BQ is not really worth it anyway.
    Like Deti sometimes says, she is not yet done with the carousel. She may actually be addicted.

    This is why like Lost Sailor, I too have very little sympathy for BQ (God forgive me). Unless she shows me that she is ‘different’ this time, I have to be guarded around her.
    And more importantly, to the new MAN in her life who is not privy to her past like I am, that HE too is satisfied that she is relationship or marriage material enough for him.

    So until then, JV, don’t cry for BQ.
    Cry instead for the good woman who actually wants your friendship for noble reasons.

    • #113 by LostSailor on November 21, 2012 - 7:20 PM

      I shall paint you a picture. One that you may not have seen from a female point of view before (and you were afraid to ask, lol).

      Well, said Spacetraveller (ST), if not necessarily new to the Manosphere (and yet another explanation of female behavior on a thread not really about that). We know all about the sex-pozie feminists and ridicule or P&D them.

      As I just commented upthread, none of this was about attacking anyone, but confronting, as you mention, an attempt to turn a discussion about men into something about women. Women who are truly seeking to understand will be welcome in the Manosphere.

      That said, I have little sympathy for either BQ or IF…

      • #114 by Spacetraveller on November 21, 2012 - 9:51 PM

        Lost Sailor,

        “Well, said Spacetraveller (ST), …”

        Hahahaha, I see what you did there.
        And for my part, I have sympathy for IF, mistrust for BQ and tolerance for ST…

        In all seriousness, I don’t say you attack anyone either. So we are cool on that.

        The path to my understanding M3′s story is necessarily going to be different from yours.
        I think that is what JV is trying to say when she mentions using a ‘point of reference’ and my own ‘by any means necessary’ which includes using my own (female) ‘database’.
        If you are honest, this so-called ‘solipsism’ is actually universal.
        Everybody sees the world through their own eyes.
        And happy the person who can see the world (even if temporarily) from someone else’s eyes, or point of view. it makes a refreshing change! I appreciate it if someone does that for me. So I try to reciprocate.

        We (the women here) are at a ‘disadvantage’ in dealing with concepts like M3′s. But we find it important enough to find out more about.

        So of course we will make ‘mistakes’ from time to time.
        That’s to be expected.

        Anyhow, said my piece in its entirety now.
        Thank you to M3 for being so generous in his comment earlier. And also the other people (including you, Lost Sailor, btw) who either steered me in the right direction with their clear and useful advice, or just accepted that my (albeit clumsy) comment to M3 was not intended in bad faith.
        Much appreciated.

  35. #115 by Emma the Emo on November 22, 2012 - 12:38 PM

    Hmm, while Involuntary celibacy isn’t feelable for me, it’s imaginable. A woman who wants to understand it better can imagine how she’d feel like if
    * Men stopped paying attention to her
    *To get any sex, she has to ask 100 men before one says yes, and a lot of rejections are brutal. Some express disgust.
    *Guys she likes fuck anyone but her
    *She is constantly horny like during ovulation, just constantly.
    Now, I doubt an average woman would have any self-esteem left after a couple of months of this. it will also start feeling inescapable after a while. It isn’t like male incel, but it gives you a picture. Just like I have never had my joints dislocated and relocated, but I know it must be bad from the descriptions and avoid it.

    Sure a woman can empathize, It doesn’t take full comprehension of how the man feels. Don’t men emphasize with their wives who are giving birth? I know some get sick from it.

    • #116 by M3 on November 24, 2012 - 9:01 PM

      i think emma’s nailed it down pretty coherently here.

      “it will also start feeling inescapable after a while”
      and she would be met with platitudes of ‘just be more confident’.

      • #117 by koevoet on November 28, 2012 - 1:36 PM

        Yes, more confidence. Why didn’t I ever think of that!

        See, that’s why I still haven’t been able to read your piece all the way through. I don’t empathize with you. I don’t sympathize with you. I was you. Thank God I didn’t get to 12 years. At 7 I got pretty close to ending it.

  36. #118 by Richard Cranium on November 23, 2012 - 5:06 PM

    Wow. Just fucking wow.

    I’m going to confess something here that only a handful of people know. Outside of the part about banging strippers and marrying an ex I could have written this. I’m on a 13 1/2 year “dry spell.” That’s not a misprint my last sexual encounter was June 1999. For a reference point Bill Clinton was still president then and gas was around $1.20 a gallon. For the record I’m 45 and my number is in the low single digits. I was a virgin until I was 22 and outside of a handful of brief relationships I’d probably still be a virgin. I’ve had exactly one one night stand (and for the record she was very intoxicated.) Oh and did I mention I’m a musician? Not like that’s helped at all with the ladies.

    Unless you are a completely hideous 600 pounder it’s impossible for women to understand how it feels to be totally unwanted and unloved by the opposite sex. I can’t even begin to get into how many bouts of depression and suicidal thoughts I’ve had in this life because of my total inability to attract women. You simply have no idea what it’s like be laughed at and humiliated when you try to approach someone. You have no idea the crushing feeling it is to go for literally years without so much as a hug or a kiss on the cheek from a female.
    I’ve likened my dating life to that of a baseball game. There’s a few people playing the game, there’s a bunch of people watching the game thinking they’re in the game and I’m the poor guy that couldn’t get into the game that’s forced to watch all the action through a hole in the fence hoping for that stray fly ball to come over the fence so I can feel like I’m a part if the game.

    I’ve actually “dated” a couple of girls in this last few years amazingly enough. Both were brief and for whatever reason none got past “first base” in the physical department. One simply disappeared with out a trace after a few weeks and the other will forever haunt me for a long long time because I thought she was “special” and “this one will be different” while ripping my heart out. At this point short of paying a pro (which I’m not against it’s just not financially prudent I make very little money and spending what equals 2 weeks pay for 2 minutes of sex simply isn’t in the cards) I see no scenario where I’ll ever have sex again in this life.

    So what’s my “problem” you might wonder? Glad you asked pull up a chair.
    First things first, I’m 5’5″ and 125 pounds. I’m short and skinny I have the physique of a 10 year old. I’m not that big, tall guy that makes them feel safe and as has been discussed ad nauseum the only thing woman hate more than nice guys are short guys. I’m not particularly good-looking either plus I’m losing my hair now that I’m my 40′s.
    I’m from a lower middle-class blue collar family and have spent most of my life in parts of the country (South Florida, Los Angeles and Las Vegas) where there’s a lot of money and I wasn’t one of them. Doesn’t matter you say? Try competing with guys that drive $100,000 cars and fly first class for female’s attention when you drive a 10 year old economy car, live with your family and can barely afford eating at Chili’s and a movie for a night out. To put it another way there’s absolutely nothing “hot” about me I basically have the sex appeal of a toaster.

    Second. I have no “game.” Zero, zip, nada. I’ve read into all this PUA stuff and I just can’t do it. My personality is for the most part is black and white and I just can’t put on an act like I’m someone I’m not. I simply can’t be anything other than myself which isn’t at all sexy. Adding to the misery I’m pretty intelligent and to me it’s just all silly games. Way too much effort for way too little return. I could try to talk uo 100 girls or I could just ignore them and exactly the same thing is gonna happen. Nothing and trust me I’ve tried.

    Third. I’ve been called a “nice guy” which is the kiss of death. I was raised to be a decent person and kind and nice and helpful to everyone which now I see as a huge disadvantage not only with women but dealing with life in general. Yup I’ve been the “friend” that was the shoulder to cry on when the latest jerk loser split on the poor female. I’ve been the guy that gave the a ride to work while the guy that was banging them did nothing and all the other stuff the male friends do that the guys that get the real rewards (sex) don’t have to do. At least I’ve wised up about all that horseshit and I’m not a sucker any longer.

    But wait a minute you’re a musician those guys get all the chicks right? I have seen it and yeah lots of guys in bands get chicks. I’m not one of them.. Why not? See above. Also I’m a bass player which isn’t the glamor instrument. I’m not the lead singer, not the lead guitarist. I’m not lamenting my choice of instrument I quite enjoy it actually and I’m good at it but I get overlooked especially in bands with female singers which has been the norm for me the last few bands. They get better gigs and make more money.

    So am I bitter and angry? Not as much as I used to be. I still have my moments with I see some hot chick with a total loser and go “Yeah life isn’t fair” but those moments are getting less and less. Women are merely a nuisance to me nowadays one more annoyance to be dealt with in everyday life. I just go about my business now I make sure I take care of me and try to live “off the grid” as much as possible.

    • #119 by NMH on November 24, 2012 - 8:30 PM

      *Yawn* I didnt have sex from puberty (approximately 1978) until I got a prostitute in 1989. Then a cougar in 1991. These were my HS, college, and early 20′s–when I was by far my horniest.

      And Im 6’4″.

      My game was in the game negative integers. I still wrestle with it.

    • #120 by deti on November 28, 2012 - 9:27 AM

      Richard:

      Great story. Thanks for telling us.

      • #121 by Richard Cranium on November 28, 2012 - 1:20 PM

        Thanks Deti. I’m still not sure if I’m all that comfortable sharing my story but it’s all accurate. I cut a bunch out too because it was getting long and tedious (and to be honest a bit weepy for me). My main point on posting is that there are far more guys like M3 out there than will let on and the hardest part of coping is getting past the notion that there’s something “wrong” with us. That’s something I still wrestle with on a regular basis.

  37. #122 by Anonymous on November 24, 2012 - 2:05 PM

    “Unless you are a completely hideous 600 pounder it’s impossible for women to understand how it feels to be totally unwanted and unloved by the opposite sex.”

    The 600 pounders made their own bed. They decided that gorging themselves on food was more important than being loved by the opposite sex. They look in the mirror every day, see an obvious problem that everyone knows how to fix, and do nothing (or not enough) about it.

    You literally can’t do anything about being short. And it is infinitely harder to transform one’s personality from a gameless nice guy to an alpha, than it is to transform one’s body.

    • #123 by Emma the Emo on November 24, 2012 - 3:04 PM

      A 600 pounder can film themselves eating all day and get money for it (if they clean up and put some makeup on)

      • #124 by koevoet on November 28, 2012 - 1:14 PM

        Really? That’s awesome. I only have 350 to go til I start making the big bucks!

  38. #125 by jack on November 24, 2012 - 7:47 PM

    The ultimate insult, ladies, is that so may of you are willing to spread for bad men, overandoverandover again, while rejecting men of much higher moral qualities.

    I would consider marrying a woman who rejected me while I was younger, PROVIDED she was chaste during that time and was unable to secure commitment from a “better deal”.

    However, most women will screw whatever high status guy they are interested in while they wait for their future husband to come along and pay full price (marriage) for what she is giving away for free.

    So we get her when she is older, much closer to menopause, much of her innocence and joy drained away on a bunch of bad boy lovers.

    Even as we men are rising up in value and in our careers, our future wives have spent the best of themselves on other men.

    Why should I want these women and their broken hearts and banged up pride?

    And then to add the additional insult, for this ex-whore to imagine that she is “settling” for me?

    She gave the best of her youth, beauty, and sexual innocence away for free to other men.

    I will not put a ring on the dried-up husks of her former beauty. Nor am I interested in her imminent menopausal transition, complete with facial hair, wrinkles and the absolute disappearance of 85% of her looks.

    You spent it ladies, you gambled it away in life’s casino, and I am not going to buy the leftovers.

    And a quick further note to the women here who might be legitimately trying to understand:

    It is nice that you are trying, I don’t hold that against you.

    But – even IF YOU COULD empathize, I could care less. Your empathy, even if possible is worthless to me. If you want to make the world a better place, then do some real good and go shame a slut somewhere. Go tell some picky girl that she is banging her way to spinsterhood.

    I once thought that there was nothing I wanted more than to put a smile on a woman’s face, and joy in her heart.

    Now that I realize what 90% of women think of men, I can think of nothing that brings me more satisfaction than a lonely, crying woman, with a string of bad boy lovers and heart that is beyond broken.

    Blame your slutty, picky, worthless, prideful sisters for the conditions you observe in the comments here.

    I heard some woman crying in the hall at work the other say, obviously talking to one of her girlfriends about the latest mis-treatment her boyfriend had done to her.

    Gone was any sense of empathy or concern, instead I wanted to collect her tears and drink them. In my age group, the shoe is starting to be on the other foot, and I will not pass up a single opportunity to return the insults and rejection to the women who handed them out when younger.

    I recently ran into a girl from my high school days who was a real picky little bitch. Now, she is fat, with blotchy skin and still single. I am just waiting to run into her again, and I get the opportunity, I am going to drop some comment about not wanting to date fat chicks. It’s gonna burn her pride, of course, since she’s a porker as well. I can’t wait to see the flash of rejection and shame wash across her face.

    I hide this side of me from the women I date, of course, since there are a few nice women who I do not want to make feel bad. But I will gleefully shame the hell out of any woman who I detect has a past that makes her worthy of it.

    -jack

    • #126 by taterearl on November 25, 2012 - 8:39 AM

      Bravo! Women want to know why chivalry is dead….you killed it by rewarding the unchivarlous behavior. You made your bed…sleep in it and quit blaming others for making the bed you created.

      A horrible woman is one that trashes the three things in this life where she has an advantage over men…beauty, innocence, and a uterus.

  39. #127 by Grasshopper on November 26, 2012 - 7:17 AM

    @Spacetraveller…
    Much of what M3 wrote resonated with me as a man and you can see from the comments resonated also with a lot of men out there. If I had written my own version in the OP – I would want to hear something like the following from women…

    ‘Those women who friend zoned you and turned you down made bad short sighted decisions. You have (good quality) and (good quality) I can tell from your posts. Tell me please what can we as women do to be more perceptive so as not to let a good man like you slip through our fingers? I am sorry to hear of the pain our shortsightedness and bad choices causes – I know it is too late for you but what can young women do to prevent this pain from happening to the good young men in their lives? …’

    Some wordsmithing required perhaps – but it gets the point across. You validate my experience, acknowledge ownership of the problem on behalf of ‘team woman’ and ask what can be done to correct the problem going forward.

    Empathy is nice I guess but it really does not solve anything. What has been done in our lives is done. Can we fix this so no more guys have the same misfortune M3, myself and many others have had?

    Grasshopper

    • #128 by Spacetraveller on November 26, 2012 - 10:06 AM

      Thank you for this, Grasshopper.

    • #129 by koevoet on November 28, 2012 - 1:29 PM

      Grasshopper, I personally don’t want a “mea culpa” from them. You can’t fix FUBAR. I want a “you know what, I’m single. I’ll go out with you.” Failing that, if she’s already taken (God willing to a decent guy) I wouldn’t mind empathy, though I think girls could learn a little bit of proper masculine empathetic language – “That’s fucked up, dude.” Four words. Succinct, even if a bit laconic, but it gets the point across. Comparing us to a slut isn’t helping at all.

  40. #130 by jack on November 26, 2012 - 10:43 PM

    Spacetraveller-

    Women of your generation and the previous one have done a lot of damage to men.

    An analogy would be to say it is if you had all run over us with your cars, leaving us crippled. At the end of the day, it does not matter if it was intentional or unintentional, at least to us. We are still crippled, permanently.

    I suppose there might be a tiny, tiny bit of comfort in knowing that it was not on purpose, but it does not change that fact that so many men are permanently crippled due to the actions of these women.

    Not all women are like that? I suppose, but it is probably hard for you to see, or perhaps admit the role you may have played in bringing this dynamic into play.

    Sympathy benefits you, the sympathizer. It does nothing to ease the pain of the wounded person.

    If expressing sympathy for these men makes you feel better, then by all means: go ahead.

    But you know what I want? I want an apology. I want an acknowledgement by you and other women for what you have done.

    I want you to own your actions, and face the results of them.

    Just like the drunk who runs over and kills someone must visit the morgue and view the carnage they caused, so too should you women force yourselves to view and reckon with the role you played in the destruction of humanity.

    Sympathy is a gift you give yourself. An apology is a gift you give to those who have been wronged.

    • #131 by deti on November 28, 2012 - 9:43 AM

      jack:

      This comment, and the one you left before, are nothing short of superb.

      Ladies, if you want to reach some sort of intellectual understanding of why the SMP is as fucked as it is, read this comment and his other one above.

      my good friend dannyfrom504 has a category of posts called “Into the Locker Room”. In those posts, it’s no-holds-barred for men. Danny usually advises the women not to post, but rather to be quiet, listen and observe.

      Maybe this is coming a bit too late, but: women, maybe you should simply not post. Maybe this is one PM post you should just not comment on. Maybe you should listen and observe, so as to learn. Instead of trying to show us you understand because something dissimilar happened that caused one of your GFs to hurt real bad, just listen, For once, don’t talk. Listen.

      You see ladies, we men have nowhere else to go to talk about these things. Work? Full of blue pillers. Home? No one there gets it. Pastors? THey’re part of the problem. Parents? Also part of the problem. Nope, this is it for us.

      It’s really better if you Just. Be. Quiet.

      • #132 by Richard Cranium on November 28, 2012 - 12:06 PM

        I heartily endorse this Deti while I enjoy PM’s writings there’s a reason other MRA/MGTOW blogs and message boards have a “no wimmen aloud” policy we need a place we can freely discuss issues without fear of retribution or the inevitable shaming language or the ever popular cry of NAWALT!

        I posted something I feel is quite related to the OP and very soul-bearing and personal and it barely got a “meh” but literally half the comments are from a couple of broads trying to shoehorn their way into a discussion they really don’t belong in IMHO and it takes away from the real issue at hand. Trying to compare a friend who is MARRIED and gets little attention to “the only girls that have hugged me in a dozen years are my mom and my sister” is downright insulting.

    • #133 by deti on November 28, 2012 - 10:08 AM

      I note that jack’s comment above has been up for two days. I’m the only one who commented on it.

      I don’t want to hear that a woman understands a man’s pain, because she doesn’t. Not really.

      I’m not too interested in hearing a woman say she’s sorry for what she did or what her gender did or didn’t do. Frankly I don’t think most of them are sorry for their conduct’s effects on the men in their lives or men in general or society. Most of them cannot see beyond themselves.

      I don’t even want a woman to acknowledge the damage they have done.

      This doesn’t even apply to all women.

      I really just want feminists and the Amanda Marcottes of the world to stop causing more damage. I really just want feminists to get out of the way so we can get about the business of containing the damage. salvaging what can be salvaged, getting rid of what can’t be salvaged, burying the dead, healing the wounded, and hunkering down so we can ride out the decline.

      The women who are with us, allies and compatriots: You can help, but please don’t say you understand or empathize. Just help us contain the damage and ease us into the coming long, cold winter. Shame a slut. Tell her she’ll end up a spinster and alone if she continues on her path. Help get a slut out of the lifestyle and give her a fighting chance for a relationship. If you care about these women, do it, because hitching herself to a decent man is her best chance to survive the quickly approaching dark days ahead. Call out feminists, loudly and publicly.

      As for the rest of you: Go on. Live your lives. Go ahead and continue hoping that Fuckbuddy Rockbanddrummer or Alpha McGorgeous or Harley McBadboy or Frank Fratboy will put a ring on it.

      Go ahead with your fabulous cubicle careers and travel plans to Brazil and Kuala Lumpur. By all means, EatPrayLove your way across Asia until you all Get Your Grooves Back.

      Keep purchasing your Manolo Blahniks and your Louis Vuittons.

      Please stop coming to manosphere sites and poke us with sticks while we’re trying to contain the damage you caused. Please stop coming here and harrumphing about how we fucked up our own lives and we just need to buck up. We’ve done all the things you told us and it hasn’t made anything better.

      Please just get out of the way so we can ride this out the best we can.

  41. #134 by JJK on November 27, 2012 - 12:39 AM

    Unfortunately, men like these really bring it down upon themselves. All that anger towards women will tend to send all women fleeing for the hills.

    How much sense does it make to HATE HATE HATE HATE all women unilaterally across the board, but still expect and desire love and sex from them?

    The harsh truth of the matter is that nobody will ever love you as much as you love yourself. Men who hate women and who send all their time complaining about how “cruel” and “entitled” and “wicked” women are tend to be guys who are very unhappy with themselves, and their lives. And not too many healthy people are going to want to deal with that much baggage.

    These guys who live in the manosphere are, bascially, your male versions of the dreaded Feminazi. Women do not want these men for the very same reasons that men do not want those man-hating Feminazis. Why would a member of the opposite sex want anything to do with you when you harbor such hate and vitriol toward their entire gender? Why would a member of the opposite sex want anything to do with you when you automatically assume the worst whenever you meet one of them?

    Fact is, there are plenty of good, kind, loving women out there — but these kinds of women tend to go for good, kind, loving men. They don’t want to deal with rageful, embittered men who automatically write them off as evil harpies without even troubling themselves to get to know them. Like men, each woman is an individual. You’ll never meet a good woman if you don’t expect to meet one. Write off all women as selfish bitches, and expect to die alone.

    “Wah, wah, women have done a lot of damage to men.”

    Please. Spare me the pity party. You’re only able to control your own outlook and your own actions, so work on that. Truly, I can see how many of the men commenting here in this very post are driving all women away from them and bringing shitty female behavior down on their own heads through their fucked-up, bitter, self-pitying attitudes.

    Would you want to date a woman who endlessly cried about all the “wrongs” men have done to women over the years? No? Well, then. Teapot. Kettle. Black.

    Furthermore, men are very hypergamous. They just aren’t self-aware enough to realize it. The entire problem of “Wah, women are always trying to date someone better than themselves” could easily be solved by…DUH, DATING DOWN THE TOTEM POLE. Seeing as you aren’t hypergamous and don’t have any need for a partner who’s better than you are, it shouldn’t be any trouble to date a woman who’s lower in terms of status and looks than you are, right?? Unless you’re at the total bottom of the totem pole, this shouldn’t even be an issue. Unfortunately, “female hypergamy” is an issue because men are every bit as hypergamous as women are, but they lack the self-awareness to see it. And then they get all pantied up when women who are far above their level fail to return their affections.

    There is no such thing as being “involuntarily single.”

    If you wanted a girlfriend tomorrow, you could easily have one. Trouble is, you probably don’t want that divorced, overweight 47-year-old with three kids. You want that slender little hottie to notice you (oh, hypergamy, much??)

    If you aren’t willing to date women who don’t quite tickle your sexual fancy or meet your “standards,” then you aren’t really in a position to accuse anyone else of “entitlement” or “pickiness.”

    The secret to dating success is to want the people who who want you. If the women you’re interested in are all uninterested in you, then it means your expectations about what you’re able to pull are unrealistic. This means that you need to lower your standards. It does not, however, mean that you are “involuntarily single.” No man needs to be single unless he wants to be.

    This is the red pill, guys. Blue pill advice tells you that you’re just such a “NICE!!!! GUY!!!!” that all women who fail to throw themselves at your feet with offers of sex must be hypergamous, evil bitches. Unfortunately, if that is what you believe, then you are a man who’s taken the blue pill.

    • #135 by LostSailor on November 27, 2012 - 9:34 AM

      How much sense does it make to HATE HATE HATE HATE all women unilaterally across the board

      And cue the feminists who, despite lacking awareness and understanding, arrive to lecture men. Sorry, cupcake, you’re missing the point. We don’t hate all women, we just mock women like you.

      These guys who live in the manosphere are, bascially, your male versions of the dreaded Feminazi.

      Feminists like you would dearly love this to be true, even though it’s not, because the Manosphere is your worst nightmare: men coming together to share their wisdom and collective experience and right the imbalance caused by feminism.

      Why would a member of the opposite sex want anything to do with you when you automatically assume the worst whenever you meet one of them?

      We don’t assume anything. We observe women’s behavior–not their words–and frequently find that many of them show themselves to be the “worst” in terms of character. It’s not us; y’all are doing it to yourselves.

      but these kinds of women tend to go for good, kind, loving men.

      A lie repeated does not become a truth. You have clearly failed to read, comprehend, or understand the subject of this post.

      Write off all women as selfish bitches, and expect to die alone.

      We all die alone, but I wouldn’t expect you to understand that. In the meantime, we’ll just learn to bang a succession of younger women and live our lives for ourselves. That’s what really make you mad, isn’t it?

      Furthermore, men are very hypergamous. They just aren’t self-aware enough to realize it.

      No, men aren’t. You really shouldn’t attempt to use words you really don’t understand.

      Trouble is, you probably don’t want that divorced, overweight 47-year-old with three kids.

      Correct, we do not want you. Enjoy your cats.

      This is the red pill, guys.

      Hush now, JJK. The men are talking…

    • #136 by Emma the Emo on November 27, 2012 - 9:50 AM

      JJK,
      That’s just simply wrong. Women rate most men as below average. Men are realistic about rating women. Women reuse same men for child-making. As for male and female sexuality, even the equality-biased study motivated to prove the sameness of the sexes admitted big sexual differences. Some men lower their standards as low as possible, but still get neither gf nor sex.
      As for bitterness, you might be right – self-pitying never helped anyone. But anger might not be so bad, and it’s better than having no teeth whatsoever. Plus I kinda have a feeling many of those bitter rejected guys won’t act like that if they get a gf that loves them. I agree relentlessly hating even after getting a nice gf is fruitless and irrational.

      • #137 by Emma the Emo on November 27, 2012 - 9:52 AM

        I mean dangerous anger can sometimes be enticing to women (not making it up, as cliche as it sounds, that type of thing is effective)

    • #138 by A♠ on November 27, 2012 - 3:56 PM

      Fixed it for you:

      Unfortunately, many women really bring it down upon themselves. All that anger towards men will tend to send wise men fleeing for the hills.

      How much sense does it make to HATE HATE HATE HATE all men unilaterally across the board, but still expect/desire love and commitment from them?

      The harsh truth of the matter is that nobody will ever love you if you are unwilling to return it. Women who hate men and who spend all their time complaining about how “cruel” and “oppressive” and “childish” men are tend to be gals who are very unhappy with themselves, and their lives. And not too many healthy people are going to want to deal with that much baggage.

      These gals who live in the Spinstersphere™ [® SSM] are, basically, your female versions of the dreaded “Patriarchs”. Men do not want these women for the very same reasons that women do not want those woman-hating “Patriarchs”. Why would a member of the opposite sex want anything to do with you when you harbor such hate and vitriol toward their entire gender? Why would a member of the opposite sex want anything to do with you when you automatically assume the worst whenever you meet one of them?

      Fact is, there are plenty of good, kind, loving men out there — but these kinds of men prefer to commit to gentle, loving, feminine women. They don’t want to deal with spiteful, embittered women who automatically write them off as evil rapists without even troubling themselves to get to know them. Like women, each man is an individual. You’ll never meet a good man if you only look for reasons to reject each and every one. Write off all men as creepy, underachieving losers and [you should] expect to die alone.

      “Wah, wah, men have done a lot of damage to women.” Please. Spare me the pity party. You’re only able to control your own outlook and your own actions, so work on that. Truly, I can see how many of the women commenting here in this very post are driving all men away from them and bringing masculine disciplinary behavior down on their heads through their backwards, bitter, self-righteous attitudes.

      Would you want to date a man who endlessly cried about all the “wrongs” women have done to men over the years? No? Well, then. Teapot. Kettle. Black.

      Furthermore, women are very hypergamous. They just aren’t self-aware enough to realize it. The entire problem of “Wah, men are always trying to date someone younger, tighter & 50lbs lighter” could easily be solved by…DATING DOWN THE TOTEM POLE. DUH! Seeing as men aren’t hypergamous and don’t have any need for a partner who’s better than they are, it shouldn’t be any trouble to date a man who’s much lower in terms of status and looks than you are, right? Unless you’re at the very bottom of the totem pole, this shouldn’t even be an issue. Unfortunately, [female] hypergamy is an issue because women are every bit as hypergamous as the manosphere paints them to be, but they lack the self-awareness and willingness to be introspective enough to see it. And, to worsen matters, then they get delusional and venomous when men who are far above their level fail to return their affections in the form of emotional/material investment.

      There is no such thing as being “involuntarily single.” If you wanted a boyfriend tomorrow, you could easily have one. Trouble is, you probably don’t want that inarticulate, introverted grocery clerk with a love of fantasy/science-fiction novels. You want that buff, tall, CEO to notice you (oh, hypergamy, much??)

      If you aren’t willing to date men who don’t quite tingle your ‘gina or meet your 463 bullet-point list of demands, then you aren’t really in a position to accuse anyone else of “superficiality” or “fat-hate.”

      The secret to dating success [for women[ is to want the men who who want you. If the men you’re interested in are all uninterested in you, then it means your expectations about what you’re able to pull are supremely unrealistic. This means that you need to lower your outlandish standards. It does not, however, mean that you are “involuntarily single.” No woman needs to be single unless she wants to be.

      This is the red pill, gals. Blue pill advice tells you that you’re just such a “SPECIAL!!!! AWESOME!!! SNOWFLAKE!!!!” that all men who fail to throw themselves at your feet with offers of commitment must be shallow, basement-dwelling losers. Unfortunately, if that is what you believe, then you are a woman who’s taken the blue pill.

    • #139 by deti on November 28, 2012 - 10:23 AM

      JJK’s comment is a smorgasbord of feminist and SMP dysfunction. It’s all here: Shaming language. Apex fallacy. Projection. Blaming the victim. Insisting that men accept damaged, unattractive women. Refusal to accept any responsibility for the SMP’s status. Refusal to acknowledge men’s wants, needs, desires, hopes and dreams as essential parts of relationships. Superiority complex.

      Otherwise, it’s a waste of time.

    • #140 by deti on November 28, 2012 - 11:36 AM

      You know, as I think about it some more, coming over here from Laura Grace’s page and reading the latest from some snotty feminist who thinks she has the answers to everything, it’s occurring to me.

      We are never going to get through to most feminists, or most women, for that matter.

      The best we can do is work on the margins and hope for a few female converts back to sanity.

      Women like JJK come here and react viscerally because they cannot bear to see a man in pain. Seeing a man express hate, fear, anguish, anger or pain literally scares the hell out of them. Women don’t WANT to understand or empathize with it. They want it as far away from them as they can get it. That’s why JJK and her ilk come here and tell men to shut up, suck it up, get over it, and deal with it. It’s also why women in general go for Fuckbuddy Rockbanddrummer. He doesn’t feel negative emotions, or at least he doesn’t show them to his harem. He just pursues what he wants. He deposits his cum in or on her, and she loves every single solitary minute of it.

      And so with our negative emotions, the best we can do is go into a small room alone, close the door, and feel it. M3′s post which has made the manosphere rounds is something of the equivalent of that, only after feeling it he’s written about it in the hopes of helping others.

      It’s really pointless to explain male feelings like this to most women, especially in the manosphere. Most such women come here and tell us that because of our pain, we’re unattractive, driving women away, losers, dysfunctional, mentally ill, repulsive. It’s really just “you’re bitter, angry losers who can’t get laid! Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!”

      Over at Dalrock’s there was a commenter named “Christian Woman” who objected to Christian men using the term “slut”. She doesn’t allow for the possibility that some women are indeed sluts. And she’ll never, ever see this, because she doesn’t want to. She’s made up her mind what the truth is.

      I’m giving up explaining myself to women. I’m giving up explaining manosphere principles to women who come here. I’m giving up explaining to women men’s feelings or that they feel or what they feel or why they feel it or their effects on us. I’m not going to patiently respond to people like JJK anymore. It’s pointless. It’s a waste of time. They don’t come here to learn, or listen, or empathize, or understand. They come here to gloat, for the schadenfreude, to lecture about things of which they know less than nothing, and for the moral preening. They hate us with a seething passion. They will never be persuaded.

      And the opposed women who come to the manosphere to comment always, always make it about them. It’s always about how they feel, or how women feel in general, or about how some dissimilar thing that happened to her second cousin’s BFF was really bad too. It’s always “you men think you have it bad? well we women have it TEN TIMES WORSE!” It’s always “yeah, that happened to you, but here’s what happened to me!” We don’t give a shit. We truly don’t, because right now at this moment, in this place, it’s not about you. It’s not comparable. And even if if were, it wouldn’t matter, because for right now, it’s about us.

      IT. IS. NOT. ABOUT. YOU. The world does not revolve around you, or your feelings, or your petty concerns. The world will go on if I get hit by a bus this morning. The world will go on if your Manolo Blahniks get a stain on them or if Alpha McGorgeous doesn’t return your fucking text until 8:00 tonight.

      For Chrissakes, can you women just SHUT UP so we can say what we need to say? Can you just SHUT UP so M3 can feel what he needs to feel and we can too? Can you just SHUT UP and for once, just once, not make every damn thing about you? Can you just for once not relate everything a man says to your life and your experiences or your girlfriends’ experiences? WE DO NOT GIVE A SHIT.

      I’ve had it. I’m sick to death of it.

      • #141 by Apollo on November 30, 2012 - 8:10 AM

        Holy shit Deti, how do you do it? I’ve been reading through this comment thread and every single comment youve made here has knocked it out of the park.

        This place, the Manosphere, is ours, it belongs to men. It’s the only place we can share stories like this, and not so that we can get sympathy from women, or even other men, and not even so we can get women to apologize or admit any wrongdoing (fat chance of that anyway). It’s so that we can share our problems, so we don’t feel so alone, and so that we can face our problems honestly and openly in order to hopefully find workable solutions.

        I don’t mind if women listen, or even chime in occasionally, but I’m not interested in hearing about what they think are the female equivalents of the problems we are discussing. Im not interested in hearing that, No, they really do sympathise that we are saying, and that we were misinterpreting what they were saying when we told them they didnt understand and were being patronising. (They are not wrong I tell you, NOT WRONG!!!) And I sure as Hell don’t want to hear their fucking advice, especially in cases where taking advice from women is part of the problem. Ladies, for once in your life, accept that it’s not about you. The Manosphere is our place. You’re just a guest. Behave like it or get out.

  42. #142 by jack on November 27, 2012 - 9:15 AM

    I see we have the dreaded shaming language tactic in the comment above:

    “No one will ever love you with that attitude.”

    You make a mistake, though princess JJK – you make a mistake in thinking that men like me “hate” women.

    That is a lie you tell yourself, most likely so you can justify your former actions.

    Using the previous analogy, you are just like someone who has run their car over another person, then stepped out of that car, run over to the view the victim and are now clucking your tongue, telling them not to be “bitter”.

    Yeah, whatever, honey. It’s clear that blaming the victim is how you will prevent yourself from having to reckon with the damage you have caused. Your comment is an incoherent mess, lacking either logic or consistency of thought.

    By the way, you clearly do not understand what hypergamy means, since you keep using it incorrectly in your comment.

    And no, I do not want a fat woman with a bunch of bastard spawn. But that is because I bring too much to the table to have to subject myself to that.

    Let’s get this through your head once and for all:

    When a woman squanders her youth and beauty on “jerks”, then comes looking for a guy to “settle” with, the answer is “no”.

    Why would any man who respects himself want a woman who has been worn down by life, disillusioned by the men (that SHE CHOSE, of course), and carrying the baggage of another man’s children and probably a bunch of debt as well?

    And once again for good measure: You have an utterly flawed notion of what is meant by the word “hypergamy”.

  43. #143 by Anonymous on November 27, 2012 - 7:51 PM

    JJK-

    You seem to be making the common mistake of assuming symmetry in the dating scene. You know, that because there is a roughly equal number of men and women, anyone can easily attract someone at or slightly below his/her own market value. This way of thinking ignores two very important things:

    1. Women don’t have nearly the level of desire men do to engage in romantic intimacy with the opposite sex. Yea, this is contrary to what Hollywood portrays, but that’s because Hollywood is based upon the past… when a woman needed a man simply for her own security and well-being. Nowadays, that is obviously not the case. And while women’s financial independence is obviously a blessing in many ways, it has nonetheless created a grossly distorted dating scene.

    Observe any setting where men and women would go to meet one another; bar, party, dating site, etc. I have found there to be a surprisingly consistent ratio of about 3 men for every woman in these place; which understates the true lopsidedness, since most women visit these places with no intention of actually meeting someone, unless Mr. “So perfect he doesn’t even exist” falls into her lap.

    Men are also far more concerned their body image and the effect it’ll have on their dating prospects. Oh no, another statement that flies in the face of conventional wisdom! If you don’t believe it, do me a favor: Go to a gym. Count the number of super slender, tight, fitness obsessed females, and then count the number of jacked meathead guys. I’ve found there to be AT LEAST ten of the latter for every one of the former in my own observation. Go ahead, do it yourself, then try to tell me that the conventional wisdom is correct here.

    2. Women are infinitely more selective than men. This makes perfect biological sense, and can be seen here in exhibit A (see the 3rd graph from the top): http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/

    These two effects have combined to create an extremely asymmetrical dating environment, where fat, ugly women are still far more sought after than attractive, engaging men. Exhibit B- Someone conducted an experiment with 6 fake profiles on match.com:
    M1- very attractive male
    M2- average male
    M3- short, unattractive male
    F1- very attractive female
    F2- average female
    F3- fat, unattractive female

    The results after 1 week:
    F-1 Winks: 2651 Emails: 752
    F-2 Winks: 2101 Emails: 721
    F-3 Winks: 985 Emails: 203
    M-1 Winks: 245 Emails: 68
    M-2 Winks: 11 Emails: 2
    M-3 Winks: 2 Emails: 0

    That should put the symmetry myth to bed once and for all.
    CONCLUSION: It is actually quite difficult for a man to find a girlfriend anywhere near his own market value. I rest my case.

    • #144 by NMH on November 29, 2012 - 12:23 PM

      F1/F2= 1.26; M1/M2 = 22.2; hence, the desire to meet the upper echelon of the opposite sex is 17.5 times stronger in women then men.

      Hypergamy, anybody?

  44. #145 by steve jabba on November 29, 2012 - 3:25 AM

    Where does this idea so called “Bad Boys” get more sex (if they want) than a principled guy with standards and boundaries?

    It’s just nonsense.

    There is some good stuff in the manosphere, but this is just tosh.

    • #146 by deti on November 29, 2012 - 11:05 AM

      Steve Jabba:

      I read the post you linked to, which post is apparently on your own site. Sam Spade, who replied to that post, I think summed it up best. I’ve copied his reply here in pertinent part:

      “I find it NO surprise that you just linked to ‘The Chateau’ as I read some of your first articles, specifically the copy and pastes you put on the LSS – and it was just a re-hash of classic Chateau wisdom…… but not as well written. T

      ***
      “Steve, I don’t doubt you are very good with women, but your reality and the reality of most men are two very different things……

      “You trying telling most guys on the Saturday sarge to do what you do and imagine the reactions they will get, they don’t look like you and never will – thinking they can adopt your attitude and behaviours and get your success is very naive at best, manipulative and cruel at worst.

      ***
      “You get results on the street not because of your game but in spite of your game- you’re a tall, good looking dude who approaches – so you have more ‘yes’ girls than the average guy is ever going to get.
      ***

      “I’m sure your heart is in the right place, and you believe in what you’re doing, but how valid is it really and how much can you really do for guys who don’t look like you and never will, no matter how hard they try and change their ‘fundamentals’.”

    • #147 by deti on November 29, 2012 - 11:10 AM

      “Where does this idea so called “Bad Boys” get more sex (if they want) than a principled guy with standards and boundaries?

      It’s just nonsense.”

      Steve, you get more sex because you are a PHYSICALLY ATTRACTIVE, principled guy with standards and boundaries.

      Perhaps it sounds butthurt. Don’t care. The truth is the truth, whether we want to believe it or not, whether we want to accept it or not. Good looking men are better at pickup, because women in general and sluts in particular want attractive men. Specifically, they want to have sex with attractive men. Physically good looking men are simply viewed as more attractive ab initio.

      • #148 by koevoet on November 29, 2012 - 2:03 PM

        I think he is right in the sense that the initial assertion he was disagreeing with was that men “need” to be bad boys to get laid. No, they don’t necessarily need to be, but the stereotypical bad boy will have the traits he lists as necessary whereas often the average “nice guy” will need to learn these traits and train in them. I think this is akin to Rollo’s Natural Alpha vs Learned Alpha dichotomy.

    • #149 by LostSailor on November 29, 2012 - 4:30 PM

      “Tosh”? Yeah, right.

      Sorry, but your credibility is suspect: you’re just trying to drum up business. Not buying.

    • #150 by Richard Cranium on November 30, 2012 - 1:39 AM

      For Steve:
      I have a lot to say about your post but it’s late and I gotta be up early.
      Read this. Then read it again. A third time if it’s necessary to fully grasp it. This guy is the epitome of a “principled guy with standards and boundaries” and women wouldn’t piss on him if he was on fire in fact they laugh at him.

      http://freenortherner.wordpress.com/2012/11/27/the-frustration-of-a-single-man/

  45. #151 by Michael J Nicholls on June 19, 2013 - 12:42 PM

    I’ll tell you Incel has ultimately affected me; I now fucking HATE women. I see them as sex objects and nothing more.

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