The Clusters – A Warning For Men

If you’re not familiar with the clusters, these are certain behaviors that are not quite mental illnesses but pretty darn close for any man who has witnessed the associated behaviors. Here’s the summary from Wikipedia (link below).

Cluster A (odd or eccentric disorders)

  • Paranoid personality disorder: characterized by irrational suspicions and mistrust of others.
  • Schizoid personality disorder: lack of interest in social relationships, seeing no point in sharing time with others, anhedonia [great word!], introspection.
  • Schizotypal personality disorder: characterized by odd behavior or thinking.

Cluster B (dramatic, emotional or erratic disorders)

  • Antisocial personality disorder: a pervasive disregard for the rights of others, lack of empathy, and (generally) a pattern of regular criminal activity.
  • Borderline personality disorder: extreme “black and white” thinking, instability in relationships, self-image, identity and behavior often leading to self-harm and impulsivity.
  • Histrionic personality disorder: pervasive attention-seeking behavior including inappropriately seductive behavior and shallow or exaggerated emotions.
  • Narcissistic personality disorder: a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy. Characterized by self-importance, preoccupations with fantasies, belief that they are special, including a sense of entitlement and a need for excessive admiration, and extreme levels of jealousy and arrogance.

Cluster C (anxious or fearful disorders)

  • Avoidant personality disorder: pervasive feelings of social inhibition and social inadequacy, extreme sensitivity to negative evaluation and avoidance of social interaction.
  • Dependent personality disorder: pervasive psychological dependence on other people.
  • Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (not the same as obsessive-compulsive disorder): characterized by rigid conformity to rules, moral codes and excessive orderliness.

This originates from the American Psychiatric Association’s The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Must give credit to where it’s due. There are links all over the Wikipedia page for further research. I also strongly recommend  Dr Tara J. Palmatier and her website, shrink4men (link below). The stories on her website are heartbreaking and serve as an excellent warning.

The concept of batshit crazy woman is a common theme across the Manosphere. Heartiste refers to it as “hot girl crazy” and has a good post on it (link below). I once tweeted “The hotter the woman, the lower the standards of good mental health” because men too often allow serious personality issues to slide when dealing with a very attractive woman.

These behaviors can be extremely serious stuff and can too easily ruin a man’s life. The Cluster B behaviors are particularly insidious and may not reveal themselves until after a man commits to a woman with such behaviors. This is the realm of  Dr. Palmatier and how she helps men dealing with such women. Based on what I have read on her website, Cluster B women know their personalities are screwed up and hide the wretched and life-sucking behavior until they can get a man to commit to her.

Men need to protect themselves:

1. Learn about these behaviors and be observant of women’s behavior while dating or in an exclusive relationship. Be prepared to bail out quickly.

2. Be extremely prudent about revealing too much personal information that could be used against you later.

3. Don’t become exclusive or commit too soon. The Cluster B woman will eventually get impatient and that can easily reveal her true personality.

4. Marriage or cohabitation should be entered with extreme caution and a very long time of prior exclusivity. How long? Think two years or longer.

A Cluster B woman can be awfully attractive until she reveals her true nature. Many men report to wildest and best sex with such women only to be blindsided later in the relationship with extraordinarily destructive behavior. A man’s penis has little capacity for analyzing non-sexual behavior.

The Clusters on Wikipedia

Hot Girl Crazy (Heartiste)

Shrink4men (Dr. Tara J. Palmatier)

  1. #1 by Aurini on August 29, 2012 - 10:28 AM

    Last winter I did a video series on Schedule II personality disorders. If the comments are any suggestion, it’s proved to be quite the useful heuristic to many people. The BPD video is particularly funny, as I’ve had dozens of BPDs come and argue with me, which is in their nature. Link: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL61EC5873360F314D&feature=mh_lolz

    Note: I am suspect of a great deal with modern Psychology (with good reason) and I don’t adhere fully to its shibboleths. I include a bit of Freud, and rely heavily upon the medieval humours. This isn’t modern psychology, but I do believe it is accurate.

    • #2 by fi on August 29, 2012 - 12:08 PM

      This is absolutely brilliant. My sister in law was a borderline too (divorced now) and my brother had almost 20 years of violence, cuts and bruises, houses being smashed up, suicide attempts, police being called with him being arrested as nobody believed that she (5ft 2) was a threat to him (6ft 4). He only got rid when all the children gave evidence that resulted in her being excluded from the marital home and banned from coming with a certain distance for 4 years. She fought with everybody from neighbours to colleagues (although she was sacked, but it wasn’t her fault) to teachers to her children to his family and it was never her fault. It cost him a lot of money to get rid and she still damages his car if she sees it. I’ve sent the link on as he’s still struggling to make sense of it but maybe it will help. Can you straddle more than 1 disorder though as she also displayed histrionic tendencies?

      • #3 by fi on August 29, 2012 - 12:24 PM

        Ps. You smoke too much :D

      • #4 by Aurini on August 30, 2012 - 12:28 AM

        Thank you! Histrionic is in the series too, though the disorder isn’t generally what you think it is. The biggest flag of Histrionics is that everybody *else* in their life is screwed up, while they’re managing to hold it together.

  2. #5 by deti on August 29, 2012 - 11:23 AM

    anhedonia: lack of pleasure or capacity to experience pleasure. Inability to find or experience pleasure or joy.

  3. #6 by just visiting on August 29, 2012 - 11:57 AM

    And drug or alcohol abuse brings it’s own special brand of crazy.

    I think the hot chick/crazy thing depends on where you live. I’m not seeing it. But I do notice a fat/crazy connection. Chicken or egg. Does fat make you crazy or does crazy make you fat?

  4. #7 by Something Smells Fishy About This "Study" on August 29, 2012 - 12:50 PM

    Has the belief in god, gods, angels and demons ever been determined to be a disorder? You see a lot of the above behaviours in the very religious, and just such beliefs themselves are irrational. And I say this as a believer in something greater then the summation of our parts as well.

  5. #8 by just visiting on August 29, 2012 - 12:51 PM

    Introspection is a symptom of a personality disorder? Uh oh.

  6. #9 by NMH on August 29, 2012 - 1:18 PM

    ALL Western Women – (OVERWEIGHT + OBESE) – (difficult personality + personality disorder) – (has STD) – (no money saved) = 0

    • #10 by fi on August 29, 2012 - 3:05 PM

      Yep that’s me. Obese with an std. And a personality disorder.

      • #11 by theprivateman on August 29, 2012 - 3:10 PM

        That’s going to be tweeted. Thanks Fi.

      • #12 by fi on August 29, 2012 - 3:25 PM

        Ha. I’d say please don’t but my fingers are so fat I can barely operate my phone keypad to respond. :D

      • #13 by theprivateman on August 29, 2012 - 3:33 PM

        Too, late! Tweeted to almost 500 followers and maybe some serious re-tweets…! Muahahahahahahahaha!

      • #14 by fi on August 29, 2012 - 3:49 PM

        Bit of a panic there as I didn’t quite know if I’d be identifiable so I had to go into google to see where to go/what to see as I don’t do Twitter. But you’re off the hook!

      • #15 by theprivateman on August 29, 2012 - 5:33 PM

        I don’t reveal any commenter’s identity (easy to find, actually) even indirectly even if they attacked me personally.

  7. #16 by cynical optimist on August 29, 2012 - 1:21 PM

    I cannot stress the seriousness of screening for LTR material, followed by more screening and you shit-testing her, flip the scipt people. This is subjective experience as my dad married a BPD woman, behaviours which i grew up with and rationalised away as normal when they were incredibly abusive. This post is slightly all over the place so bare with me it fits together in the end.

    Children learn from example. Every child who grows up with constant fighting and tension between his parents has to survive living in a war zone. This is grossly unfair to kids at any age–but it’s only the tip of this iceberg; mean-spirited, disrespectful interplay between spouses becomes a kid’s definition for what ‘marriage’ means. As an adult, he/she will unwittingly choose lovers or partners with whom to replicate this familiar drama–or may never marry at all.
    Reference: http://gettinbetter.com/gift.html

    Again, when a woman’s needs are not met by her spouse or partner, they’re transferred to her child, which fosters an unhealthy, fused/enmeshed bonding that conditions him to feel responsible for her survival and wellbeing. (emotional abuse)
    Reference http://gettinbetter.com/needlove.html

    http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-4/

    Some of the terminilogy is slightly incongruent in this sense but the results are in essence the same, replace narcissist with alcoholic and you have a similar dynamic.
    Codependents often become that way because they had one or two narcissistic parents. These narcissistic parents trained the codependent from childhood to put their own feelings and needs on the backburner and focus on the needs of the parents first and foremost. This caused them to grow up believing that their job in relationships is to please others at their own expense. Codependents tend to have extreme chemistry with narcissist lovers because these narcissistic, hard-to-please lovers subconsciously remind them of their narcissistic, hard-to-please parents, and often push the same emotional hot buttons. They view these narcissistic lovers as a second chance to get their childhood right.
    They need someone more narcissistic and selfish and emotionally manipulative than themselves in order to generate intense chemistry thanks to their childhood issues with their parents. When they were codependents it was especially easy to find people more selfish than themselves, so they could find chemistry all levels of narcissists, from the midly narcissistic to the pure narcissists. However now that they are compensatory narcissists and higher up the narcissistic ladder themselves, the only people who can now generate chemistry for them are pure narcissists.

    http://www.mudrashram.com/dysfunctionalfamily2.html

    In families where there is insanity or serious illness of a parent, the child’s emotional boundaries are infringed upon, and the child may be forced into the role of surrogate spouse for the other parent, or required to act as the ill parent’s caretaker. Adults who grew up in these dysfunctional families may experience problems with addiction: overeating, chemical dependency, sexual compulsions, workaholism, or destructive gambling behavior.
    They may suffer from low self-esteem, not believing they deserve the good things in life. They may feel depressed or anxious, and be uncertain why. They may self-sabotage their goals and dreams, fail to actualize their potentials, unwitting acting out a life script written by early negative programming. They may have problems with making money, managing money, or settling down into a satisfactory career. They have difficulties with intimacy, forming close relationships, and dread letting go of a relationship, even when it is destructive. They report sexual dysfunction, sexual obsession or lack of sexual desire.
    They may be troubled with health problems that derive from too much stress, failure to properly care for their nutrition or get proper exercise or sleep, and being overly driven in their lives, not knowing when to let go or relax. Their acting out as adolescents may have interfered with their education, and their emotional tension may have interfered with their ability to concentrate and to study, limiting their job prospects; and confusion, which effected their school performance. Their rebellion may have led to legal entanglements. They may be out of touch with their feelings and their spirituality, and lack a sense of meaning in their lives. In sum, they emerge from their stormy childhood with a damaged self.
    A boy who was on the receiving end of emotional or physical abuse from his mother will often become what is known as a codependent or “a rescuer”. As a child, he learned that a woman’s love comes with a certain amount of pain and inconsistency. Therefore, it would not be unusual for a boy like this to grow up and be drawn to women who are emotionally unstable or who have substance abuse issues. Again, this attraction occurs on a subconscious level.

    so the end result is you end up with a fucked up marriage, emotionally unstable partner, kids with issues who need counselling and all in all a not very pleasent experience. Life is tough at the best of times but learn from others mistakes. Think about it…………….

    • #17 by original trouble on August 29, 2012 - 2:18 PM

      CO:

      Good stuff. My mom is narcissistic personality disorder; my dad, brother and I all walked on eggshells for the entire time we all lived together. I married a man with the same tendencies. I think men and women both copy patterns established with our earliest love relationship with our parents. .

      • #18 by cynical optimist on August 29, 2012 - 2:53 PM

        can empathise with the walking on egg shells just to try and keep the peace for a day or two. My last two girlfriends, one was just crazy the other needy and controlling. It takes alot of deep objective introspection but we figure out the dynamic at play eventuallly albeit with the help of a threapist. Now the first sign of a red flag and its seeee youuuuu later woman. NEXT.

      • #19 by cashdoller on October 8, 2012 - 5:31 AM

        people are mostly products of their childhood.

        Fucked up childhood? Fucked up person.

        Great childhood? Successful well rounded well put together rock solid individual.

        …generally speaking of course. And of course there are shades of gray like who is to say one childhood is “fucked up” and the other is “great”. SOme may be both. There are exceptions to every rule.

        But it is a no brainer to say that we are all directly mostly affected who we are internally based solely on our childhood.

    • #20 by fi on August 29, 2012 - 3:14 PM

      Totally agree and the kids are emotionally disturbed although they are still quite young so I think it will become more apparent how much when they’re older. We did try over the years to first of all stop him marrying her, then make him aware of the impact on the kids, but I think my brother quite enjoyed having sex with her so there you go.

  8. #21 by just visiting on August 29, 2012 - 2:01 PM

    So, if a person becomes mentally and emotionally healthy, do their cues change? I think so. But there seem to be those who say that attraction is fixed.

    • #22 by original trouble on August 29, 2012 - 2:21 PM

      Yes, they can be changed, but it requires awareness of your patterns and a daily effort to focus on changing it. When it really seemed that I was getting better, after a couple of years of therapy and a year of not dating, I used to have my brother and a couple of other male friends meet my prospective partners and screen them because I didn’t trust my own judgement. It got better, I learned to spot manipulation a lot more easily, and I also think I got lucky when I met my husband. He is nothing like my ex or my mom, though he is somewhat like my dad (with much better boundaries).

      • #23 by fi on August 29, 2012 - 4:18 PM

        I think (just my thoughts) you need to ask yourself whether you like them or not and whether other people seem to like them? Do you feel good around them or do they make you feel bad? Are they nice to you or not? Do you enjoy their company or not? Basically I think if you wouldn’t want to be friends with them and spend time with them if you weren’t involved sexually with them, what are they doing in your life?

  9. #24 by The Navy Corpsman on August 29, 2012 - 9:20 PM

    Cluster F(uck) – Two or more of the above.

    Commonly found in military officers, celebrities and politicians. An individual with a Cluster F(uck) complex generally seeks out others to cause drama and pain, untold misery, all for the sake of proving they are somehow Better Than You. Severe cases can end up as serial killers, mass murderers, Senators, CongressPersons and Presidents. Treatment options include moving yourself to a country no one has ever heard of, or volunteering yourself for medical experimentation on memory loss. You, not the Cluster F(uck).

    The Navy Corpsman

  10. #26 by Original Trouble on August 29, 2012 - 9:45 PM

    I think that when you come from a family with a parent who has NPD or borderline personality disorder, etc., those tests don’t work the same as they do for people with normal families. If you come from an abusive family, love is always somehow linked with pain, from your earliest years. My earliest memories of my mom are both tender and horrifying. That’s your default. So, a person that you love making you feel bad/good is normal.

    Beyond that, NPD, the B cluster is particularly hard. Narcissists are charming as hell, and many of them are completely lacking in empathy and remorse. My ex-husband not only abused me, he abused my daughter. The most frustrating thing for her is when people meet her dad, and then tell her how nice and charming he is. And he is…superficially. He is absolutely warm and funny and adorable as long as he is getting the flamboyant admiration that he requires. Narcissists have to be loved and special, so at least a good portion of the time, they have to pretend to be lovable. In fact, they’re more lovable and charming than average when they’re in charming mode. People with BPD can be much the same way. Even with my mom, I’ve told people horror stories about her, but they always find her warm and charming until they experience one of her jekyl/hyde shifts for the first time, and then they get it. And, after she’s savaged you, she will be sure to let you know that it was all your fault. You made her do that to you, and you totally deserved it.

    It’s really a pretty vicious fucked up cycle. It took me a long time to work through having that as my default and to be able to love someone normal and sweet and caring, and even now, sometimes I still struggle with the obsessive need to perform in absolutely perfect ways with my husband because that was the only safety when I was growing up. Not because of him, but because that is how I lived for 40+ years. It is a very deeply ingrained habit.

    So, when I said in the post below that I felt a strong attraction to two guys but I knew that they were bad for me and were to be avoided by me, it is because they hit the precise button that my screwed up childhood programmed into me. It’s almost like an addiction. I know it exists because of years of therapy and work that went into identifying my particular pattern and learning to work around it. In some regards, I am no different than a recovering alcoholic. The normalized insanity of my childhood still lives inside me. My normal is not your normal. Every day, I make conscious choices not to slip back into those patterns and be unhealthy again. I had to relearn every aspect of having an intimate relationship with a romantic partner, particularly how to interact in a healthy way with a person you love. There are days when small things happen, and all of the bottled up rage of my ravaged childhood swells up inside me, and I deal with it internally and let it go, and never, ever let it spill out and damage my kids or partner. I also consciously struggle with the residue of living my entire childhood with a narcissist who nitpicked every single move I ever made, and assured me I would never be good enough to be loved by anyone but her (and the residue of being married to someone just like her).

    Every day, I choose–sometimes multiple times a day–not to allow myself to slip back into those patterns and be unhealthy again. It is an effort of will. It’s gotten easier in the five years I’ve been working at it, but it will maybe always be a difficulty for me.

    t’s not that I would ever rush one of those guys and rip my panties off and do him, my will is too strong for that, but being around them in a casual social setting feels like being a former drunk in a room full of booze. They remind me of everything I have worked so very hard to get past. So, I avoid them. I know my triggers, and I work around them.

  11. #27 by Hamster Tamer on August 30, 2012 - 7:16 AM

    Sadly–due to the Obesity Epidemic–If a woman has a WHR of .69 or lower, and an abdomen which physically approximates a drumhead, then I WILL tolerate up to 2 a la carte selections from the Cluster B menu. In fact, if a) English is her first language, and b) she’s physically fit, then I *expect* to encounter at least one such syndrome… it’s basically a TAX I can’t avoid paying. A signpost on the road of Western Civ. Pity.

    • #28 by theprivateman on August 30, 2012 - 7:51 AM

      As I tweeted… “The hotter the woman, the lower the standards of good mental health”… But the concept that it’s a tax is quite interesting and rather sad.

    • #29 by fi on August 30, 2012 - 8:25 AM

      Really?. If its a choice between sane and a bit porky vs mad but slim and good looking, you’d all prefer the mad ones?

      • #30 by NMH on August 30, 2012 - 9:10 AM

        When you are young and horny, yes.

      • #31 by theprivateman on August 30, 2012 - 9:57 AM

        NMH is right. As I have gotten older and wiser, solid mental health has become equally important as physical desirability in women.

    • #32 by NMH on August 30, 2012 - 9:29 AM

      That’s why the obesity epidemic has been such a disaster for beta men. An average run of the mill guy cannot get a slender AND sane women.

      This will end western society, more than anything else.

      • #33 by fi on August 30, 2012 - 9:49 AM

        That’s a shame. But maybe if you have to choose it might be better to opt for sanity? Or am I being unreasonable?

      • #34 by NMH on August 30, 2012 - 10:07 AM

        Well, the question maybe is this: is asking a man to ignore and instinct borne out of 100,000 years of homo sapiens evolution unreasonable?

        Asking a man to find a fat chick attractive is like asking a woman to find an unemployed man attractive.

      • #35 by fi on August 30, 2012 - 10:39 AM

        I’m not asking you to do anything :) we’re all attracted to what we’re attracted to. I need the attraction there first but supported by other qualities and without them it won’t go further. Unless I’m misunderstanding what’s being said, it seems that attraction for a man is the main motivator, and can even be the only motivator eg looks prefered over sanity if it’s a choice. That was certainly the case with my brother and his mad wife anyway and from what you’re saying seems a fairly common viewpoint.

      • #36 by original trouble on August 30, 2012 - 10:50 AM

        The real message of evolution: change or die. The message of red pill is basically: “evolution has stacked the cards against you, so if you want better results, you must change.” Why are you willing to change some things, but continue to see other aspects of yourself as fixed and intractable?

        If the only women that you are attracted to don’t want you, what are the odds that you’ll be able to change that scenario? Wouldn’t it likely be more effective to attempt to shift the women to whom you’re attracted?

        I’m attracted to assholes with narcissistic personality disorder (thanks, Mom!). Should I keep allowing NPD assholes to abuse me, because that attraction was wired into me by nuture? I suspect there are guys who post here who’ve attracted more than one partner with BPD or some other type of crazy, because of their own childhood circumstances. Should they continue to seek out crazy chicks because that’s how they’re made? Or, should they stop their white knighting co-dependency, learn to have boundaries, and evolve?

        I guess it all depends on what you want. Personally, I wanted to find someone who loved me, and who I could love in return–without hurting each other. My goal required changing some aspects of myself that seemed quite fixed (and with which I still struggle). It’s possible, but first I had to recognize my own role in the problem.

      • #37 by fi on August 30, 2012 - 11:00 AM

        OT – I think what they’re saying is that attraction to a woman’s physical attributes takes precedence over every thing else. Unless I’m misunderstanding of course, which I may be.

      • #38 by theprivateman on August 30, 2012 - 11:03 AM

        In youth, yes. With age, her looks matter just as much but she better have her mental health and emotional responses sorted out like an adult or she’s simply not a candidate for anything other than a sexual relationship.

        “If momma ain’t happy, no one is happy” is complete and utter childishness. “If momma ain’t happy, she’d better get her shit sorted out.” is how I view it.

      • #39 by original trouble on August 30, 2012 - 11:14 AM

        So, question. What if sex isn’t an option, because none of the women you’re sexually attracted to are attracted to you? That’s where NMH seems to be. Do you lower your sexual standards and have sex with fatties, but not get committed to them emotionally, or do you just swear off sex entirely? Just curious.

      • #40 by original trouble on August 30, 2012 - 11:18 AM

        Also, I agree with you on shit sorting. I used to blame my ex-husband for my unhappiness (and he was no angel). But, when I was divorced, and was on my own, one day it struck me that I could no longer use him as an excuse for my unhappiness. I could either be happy, or I could continue to wallow. At that point, it was my responsibility to make myself happy.

        Game changing attitude adjustment.

      • #41 by fi on August 30, 2012 - 12:29 PM

        OT. You keep going on about dysfunctional relationships. Nearly every post you make refers to it in some way. Is it because it is still a massive issue for you and you’re “working through your issues” or is it because you think everyone else reading these posts are in/ have been in them too? Sorry I’m British and we don’t do therapy. Unless we’re really really mental. And probably not even then unless the court makes us. :)

      • #42 by original trouble on August 30, 2012 - 1:13 PM

        This thread is about relationships with people who have mental illness. How would you classify such relationships?

      • #43 by just visiting on August 30, 2012 - 1:23 PM

        @ Fi.

        OT. You keep going on about dysfunctional relationships. Nearly every post you make refers to it in some way.

        Fi, it’s a post about cluster disorders.

      • #44 by fi on August 30, 2012 - 1:28 PM

        OT. I suppose. It just seemed that you keep telling people to change who they’re attracted to in the last thread, then in this one you’re talking about why and how you changed who you were attracted to, and in the next one you referenced it again. I wasn’t clear whether you were telling me, or other readers, that we should because you think we are in/have been in dysfunctional relationships, or whether you were talking about your situation all the time because it still played a significant role in your life.

      • #45 by original trouble on August 30, 2012 - 3:44 PM

        No, I keep making that comment to NMH, because he repeatedly comments on the fact that the women who aren’t fat don’t want him. It does not appear like his current paradigm is working for him, so that’s my rebuttal to that. And, I typically say it to fat 40-something women who are pissed that high earners are dating 20-somethings, as well.

        I guess it’s something of a hot button for me, because I think that such comments are a self-perpetuating trap.

        If the people you want don’t want you, either give up, change, or learn to be attracted to other types of people.

      • #46 by NMH on August 30, 2012 - 4:08 PM

        Almost every time someone makes a criticism of women on this blog, OT, you bring out some analogous criticism of men, which suggests to me that you think both sexes are equally off kilter. This is not at all unexpected, since in modern western society, the expected thing to do is to assign equal amounts of blame to both parties at a minimum, or more blame to men because in society women are though to be special and nearly flawless.

        If that is in fact your tendancy, I think you are wrong here. In modern western culture, women are FAR more unattractive from the male ideal and the evolutionary-honed mating imperative than men are.

        We live on in a non-judgmental culture such that it is only societally acceptable to balance every female flaw with a male one, even if we are just making up males one to make women feel better or if men.

        You simply cannot balance the overwhelming feeling of lack of attraction (at best) or disgust (at worst) most men feel for our population of obese, entitled western women with personality disorders, with how women feel about men.

      • #47 by Original Trouble on August 30, 2012 - 7:56 PM

        I don’t think that you speak for most men, NMH, I work in a male-dominated field and I like and respect the overwhelming majority of my male peers, as well as my husband, brother, dad, and son. You post the same message about women every time you post, that beta men are screwed because the women available to them are fat. You appear to judge women on an entirely superficial basis, while expressing frustrating that they do the same thing to you. That is not a workable paradigm..it is a broken one.

        If a woman my age told me that none of the high-quality men wanted her, I would tell her that she needs to revise her standards or accept being alone, because if no one she wants wants her, her standards are unrealistic. The same is true for you. That is your hamster.

        In the coming gender apocalypse, the female cat herders will likely have their male peers.

      • #48 by NMH on August 30, 2012 - 8:19 PM

        In fact, I do accept the alpha/beta male paradigm. Thanks to the teachings from the essayists of the manosphere, I can finally connect the dots and see EXACTLY how unattractive many of my behaviors were to women, and keep improving.

        Notice my attitude. I want to keep improving, and in fact I am in small increments. What would be nice to see if women accepted that if you asked what most men what they find to be most unattractive about western women, it is FAT. Instead, women either get defensive or undergo cognitive dissonance, for example (in particular 0:58):

        Yes, I judge women superficially, and that is fine because women are equally superficial, if not more so, in their judgment of me. I think I’m still the same person if I lose my job or if I ask which restaurant you might want to go tonight for a meal but I must accept that these behaviors are unattractive to the opposite sex. Women need to women up (lose weight) if you expect me to become more of an alpha.

      • #49 by original trouble on August 31, 2012 - 8:24 AM

        I’m not a fatty, and I’m not going to make excuses for women who are, but I find it hard to believe that all of the women in your area are fat.

        In all seriousness, I think men and women need to be less superficial. Men shouldn’t be just a meal ticket, and women shouldn’t be just a pretty face. I think evaluating people by those standards results in longterm disappointment.

        What would happen if you followed TPM’s experiment with women, and looked for one good quality in every woman you met, regardless of what she looked like? I think you’d have the same results that the women have had. Just saying…

      • #50 by cashdoller on October 8, 2012 - 6:26 AM

        “Yes, I judge women superficially, and that is fine because women are equally superficial, if not more so, in their judgment of me. I think I’m still the same person if I lose my job or if I ask which restaurant you might want to go tonight for a meal but I must accept that these behaviors are unattractive to the opposite sex. ”

        That is a really good god damn point and I never really gave this whole double standard much thought until I read this thread. Now that you mention it, I’m sick and tired of making excuses for demanding every girl I even consider for a date these days to be attractive…and NO FATTIES! My standards were actually lower when I was younger I think but I paid the price for that (which I won’t get into now). I’m 34 btw.

        These days… NO FATTIES!!

        And the reaction I get when I try to say this to anyone … oh how superficial of me. Her personality and brain and hopefully lacking borderline personality tendencies (because all girls I date eventually lead to having major Borderline tendencies. My favorite is how when they get real mad at you they turn the WORLD against you…even my own family. Borderlines are awesome at doing that.

        I digress yeah those things are equally as important to me as what she looks like. The reactions I get of why that matters. Or the inspirational bullshit quotes I read from women like

        typical inspirational quote under the photo posted by a woman on the internet::
        “Looks Fade So Why Not Look At Who A Person Really Is” ~by: every girl in america over 30 and/or fatties

        (examples:

        I just did a search on there for “looks fade” and every god damn result that comes up has a female icon, this is just a few of the results)

        This is of course total knock against men. The message there of course is that women are less shallow than men. The true wordage there is a request for men to stop being so superficial. In other words the quote should actually read like this:

        typical inspirational quote under the photo posted by a woman on the internet (the un-cut version)::
        “MEN are superficial because they just care what I look like. I am a woman and I don’t care about that stuff. What I care about is how smart he is and if he can make me laugh. I’m not fake. Men are all fake. I’m better than men. All women are better than Men! MEN just want me for my body. I’m going to get old and I won’t look good anymore and if i can find a MAN who will accept that and ignore what I look like, then I’ve found the perfect man. I deserve it. Oh and I’m a size 18 and that’s okay because I’m beautiful regardless of my gigantic flabby body. SO THERE!” <—what woman really are thinking

        Since women are socially known to be so much more in tune with their emotions and so much more spiritual and righteous than men, they'd never admit that.

  12. #51 by Interested on August 30, 2012 - 8:42 AM

    BPD former wife caused no end of trouble. The walking on eggshells thing is pretty much how we lived. Careening between a high and then a very low low, sometimes multiple times in a single day. But I didn’t recognize it until we were getting divorced and the marriage counselor slipped some literature on Personality B, BPD in my hand on the sly. The therapist figured her out and knew it was over and after reading the info I figured it out too.

    Good info for young men considering marriage.

  13. #52 by Something Smells Fishy About This "Study" on August 30, 2012 - 12:03 PM

    Original Trouble, “Also, I agree with you on shit sorting. I used to blame my ex-husband for my unhappiness (and he was no angel). But, when I was divorced, and was on my own, one day it struck me that I could no longer use him as an excuse for my unhappiness. I could either be happy, or I could continue to wallow. At that point, it was my responsibility to make myself happy.”

    Western cultures don’t teach inner life, the mind sciences and self-actualization. This is why its so important that we borrow from the Asian philosophical traditions, particularly South Asian traditions like Buddhism, Yoga, Meditation, Vedanta, etc.

    We would be a much less materialistic and much happier culture if we did.

  14. #53 by Something Smells Fishy About This "Study" on August 30, 2012 - 1:23 PM

    “What if sex isn’t an option, because none of the women you’re sexually attracted to are attracted to you? That’s where NMH seems to be. Do you lower your sexual standards and have sex with fatties, but not get committed to them emotionally, or do you just swear off sex entirely? ”

    As a woman I much rather swear off sex entirely than have it with men I find to be physically unattractive. Now, do I have relationships with men whom I find physically unattractive? Of course. They are my friends, like brothers. But I am not at all romantically attracted to men whom I do not find physically/sexually attractive.

  15. #54 by Something Smells Fishy About This "Study" on August 30, 2012 - 10:05 PM

    NMH, “You simply cannot balance the overwhelming feeling of lack of attraction (at best) or disgust (at worst) most men feel for our population of obese, entitled western women with personality disorders, with how women feel about men.”

    And yet everytime I go out I see obese women with mates! How is that? Granted their men are almost as fat as they are, and in many cases fatter, but still, average out of shape people are finding partners amongst their own kind.

    • #55 by original trouble on August 31, 2012 - 8:25 AM

      It appears that a lot of beta men manage to get dates, too, somehow.

  16. #56 by Nupnupnup on September 19, 2012 - 9:02 AM

    First post here. Not sure anyone will check the old posts but never mind.

    Let’s flip the question: I would be most interested in what people think a Cluster C (Avoidant) guy is supposed to do? Would love to see some discussion of that (quite willing to give details on myself, I think I am a quite interesting case [1], but not identity for a number of reasons)…

    [1] No, I am not a narcissist, that would probably be an easier life though :)

  1. Bipolar Traits | Is Bipolar Hereditary
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