Who Pays? (Short Post)

I’ve been reading a lot about the issue of who pays for the date. I argue that the man pays for the first date. I never really had a good, solid reason for that until I was reading something over at HuffPo in the Women’s pages.

The host always pays.

Yeah, that’s why the man always pays. He does the inviting – most always for first dates – so he does the paying. But can anyone spot the hypocrisy that Strong and Independent Women® usually fall blindly into for the second, third, and fourth dates?

Yeah, they seldom do the inviting. To put it rudely – on dates, it seems far more easy for a woman to open her legs than to open her wallet.

Carry on with your bad selves.

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  1. #1 by FFY on July 6, 2012 - 4:01 PM

    Good stuff, PM.

    I had a similar post awhile back. It all comes down to the “why” of paying.

    Are you paying because you’re the host? Because it doesn’t matter and every one is having a good time? Because it’s no biggie, whatever?

    Or are you paying because you want her to like you? Or want her to be grateful? Are you trying to negotiate desire with money?

    I think we all know which is the right mindset and the wrong mindset.

    http://flyfreshandyoung.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/to-pay-or-not-to-pay/

  2. #2 by P Ray on July 6, 2012 - 4:09 PM

    Some questions:
    1. Why does the date cost money?
    2. A woman who does not want to pay her share of the date, is saying that the man is not worth paying for. (The “my presence is my gift to you” mentality)
    3. Is love about money?
    4. Then she better meet your criteria (if the answer to 3 is a yes).
    Which is why women hate prostitution. :)

  3. #3 by Aaron Baugher (@Lord_Mhoram) on July 6, 2012 - 4:23 PM

    The man should pay for whatever dates he suggests. For this reason among others, the first date should not be a “date.” Preferably, it should be something that doesn’t cost a significant amount of money, in an overt sense. Five bucks for a round of mini golf and an ice cream cone is fine; the emphasis is on the fun, not the money. If you ask her to go to the store with you to help you pick out some clothes, it’s fine at the end of the trip to spontaneously buy her some little thing she admired on the way in. Again, payment is incidental, not central to the experience.

    When it’s the classic (boring) dinner-and-a-movie date, and you’re putting down the equivalent of half a day’s salary or more, that’s where you get into trouble. Save that for someone you’re already exclusive with. If she wants wining-and-dining before that, she can suggest it and pay for it (and you can make a note that she lacks imagination).

  4. #4 by YOHAMI on July 6, 2012 - 4:49 PM

    The strong independent woman – doesnt exist.

    Down here it’s normal that the bill gets split though. I pull my wallet, they usually add some money, if not half. Hey, Im rich.

    + I agree with the commenters.

  5. #5 by Infantry on July 6, 2012 - 10:23 PM

    Keep costs low for the initial ‘date’. There is of course much to be said for not obligating the girl by outlaying lots of $$$ on her. Some girls get uncomfortable by feeling that they have to reciprocate ala ‘I paid for dinner, so you’re a bitch if you don’t put out’.

    If you don’t know the girl well, go for something cheap like all the suggestions currently doing the rounds on various blogs. My favourite is still a couple of drinks out where you set the frame by saying ‘I’ll get this round’. Leadership, but it includes a compliance test. Girls like being tested if you do it right because it means you have standards and aren’t a chump.

    If you know the girl much better such as through an established non-romantic relationship (work, social circle etc), you might know her well enough to be comfortable spending more. Usually this is when you’ve already screened her and established her compatibility and interest.

  6. #6 by bonerstaboner on July 7, 2012 - 2:51 PM

    I browse the personals on Craigslist sometimes for the lulz (and sometimes for the trolling). What I notice a lot is that a woman will post an ad stating something along the lines of “looking for a man to take me out for dinner and a movie on X night”. Sometimes, they’re even very specific as to the movie and/or restaurant. In that situation, isn’t SHE the one who is doing the asking, and accordingly, shouldn’t SHE be the one paying? I ask them that sometimes when I’m in a trolling mood, and I have yet to receive one response answering my question in the affirmative. On the contrary, in the situations where I do receive a response, the answers have ranged from a weak “the man should pay” to an outright hissy fit.

  7. #7 by Anonymous age 70 on July 7, 2012 - 8:44 PM

    Even modern women Amy Aikon believes men should mostly be paying the way on dates. Greed is part of estrogen, IMO.

  8. #8 by wingman on July 7, 2012 - 9:31 PM

    Hard to have it both ways. You want the feminine attracted to your masculine? Pay! It’s in the DNA: he-man must provide for she-woman. Paying just means you have potential as a provider. Can’t afford it? Well boo-frickedy-hoo hombre, Someone else will! Reality? oh yeah, even a well-to-do, accomplished lady-being harbors some strong feelings deep inside. Feelings of a longing for… a man who will ‘spoil’ her. I have been on this planet for a while now, and feel I have more confidence in the certainty of this than almost anything else. So don’t fight City Hall my friends. Actively seek reality and hit that ATM.

    • #9 by Team-Red on July 7, 2012 - 10:54 PM

      Off topic to original post, but I completely disagree with this response. Blue-pill thinking makes one think that paying your way will lead you to having her panties end up on your floor after dropping a $150 tab on dinner. In the past before learning game, I wined and dined women paying every second of the way thinking it would lead to their attraction to me while I completely ignored the cold hard facts of seduction and how to advance it briskly. Game and seduction trumps any provider approach hands down and I bet every other man on here that has experience with the prior will agree with me.

    • #10 by NMH on July 8, 2012 - 8:03 AM

      Basically agrree with Wingmans sentiment: women are hard wired to be whores (exchange affection for money) as much as men are hard wired to be turned on by a 0.7 W:H ratio.

      I remember five years ago I brought up in conversation what my net worth was (nor substantial, but far more than hers) and that night I got the best blow job of my life.

      If you pay, make sure you get what you want from her. With this particular woman I payed for everything but I had her dress like a slut for me. So I got something out of it.

  9. #11 by dramafreepaul on July 7, 2012 - 9:59 PM

    I always pay for the first date, which I usually make the plans for. A lot of times, the woman will ask to contribute. I’ll say no since I asked her out and made the plans. I tell her when she makes plans for something she can pay. The women I go on a second date with are the ones that ask to contribute. I still don’t let them pay. The fact that they ask says something about them.

  10. #12 by Candide on July 8, 2012 - 10:07 PM

    This is always a lose-lose situation for the man if it ever comes up in an overt manner. Best is to never let it happen: no date where finance is remotely an issue until you’re firmly a Lover in her eyes (and her thighs). Paying is only going to put you in the Provider Boyfriend zone and that is going to get you a long wait for pussy payment. Every time I had first date / first night sex, it’s been either going dutch, “I get this round, you get next round” or the woman shouting me drinks for the night. Every time I did the gentleman thing and paid for both, with the whole song & dance about refusing to let her pay even when she offers, I got put in the Boyfriend Zone and didn’t get any nookie for quite a while. Even if you’re after a relationship, don’t get into the Boyfriend Zone; get in the Lover Zone. The former is entering her frame, the latter is yours.

    You can never point the hypocrisy of the situation out to a woman, regardless of how reasonable she seems. I’ve seen the most reasonable, even Red Pill aware women bitch about it. If you don’t like how she deals with it, don’t reward her with your time investment. Dump the hypocritical feminist-brainwashed bitch and give her a vague excuse that mirrors what she said to men she dumped.

  11. #13 by Phoenix on July 9, 2012 - 2:07 AM

    There’s no way I’m paying. Girl has to earn my interest and make me feel good about my masculinity first. If an exclusive relationship forms, then I’ll pay for a date once in a while when I appreciate her and the copious amounts of passionate love-making sex and hardcore animalistic fucking rounds we’ve had.

    It doesn’t matter if I’m the host. I honestly don’t care. I’ve bought enough drinks for girls in my time and the usual response is some aloof, uncaring bullshit that ruined my night. There are plenty of beta simps out there who would buy my particular date a drink on a different night when she’s out.

    Spoiling her is not good. If my game fails due to the fact that I didn’t buy her anything, then so be it. NEXT.

    • #14 by just visiting on July 9, 2012 - 6:25 PM

      Sigh, try not to slaughter me on this….NOT paying for the first date comes off as beta to me. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll offer to pay. And the following dates don’t affect me this way. (As long as the first date established his ability for mastery) For sure, the man paying sets off my provider instincts, but that’s beta. it’s his mastery of HIS environment and the situation that trips off my alpha sensors. Money is power, and if I’m sharing the power, he’s not dominant.

      Sorry.

      • #15 by Candide on July 9, 2012 - 7:46 PM

        ^^ Signs you’re definitely older than the 18~30 range and/or have been out of the dating game for quite some time.

        Probably true for older people, but young people don’t go on dates anymore and if they do, it’s “hanging out” and they pay their own way. The chumps who actually ask the girl out on a real date – pay or not – will get nothing. Actual dates only happen after (plenty of) sex and a relationship has happened.

        Even then…

        “For sure, the man paying sets off my provider instincts, but that’s beta. it’s his mastery of HIS environment and the situation that trips off my alpha sensors.”

        Women will fuck an attractive guy even if they think he’s a loser who isn’t good enough to be granted Boyfriend (or Husband) status. I’ve been Mr “Good enough to bang, not good enough to date” aka Mr He-Didn’t-Count as well as the “Potentially Perfect Boyfriend material who has to wait forever to get some”. I remember having to pay a lot of money for the privilege of being the latter, plus the incalculable costs of blue balls and wasted emotional investment.

        You can bring the complaints to the 99.999999999999% women who are exactly like that.

    • #16 by just visiting on July 9, 2012 - 8:50 PM

      Signs you’re definitely older than the 18~30 range and/or have been out of the dating game for quite some time.

      Yes to both. Though dating off and on for the last 6 months.
      There’s quite a dating culture with young people here (I don’t live in the States), but only after a relationship has been established. Sex first, lol.

      With the over 30 crowd, it can go either way. More non daters than daters.

  12. #17 by Randy on July 12, 2012 - 9:12 PM

    I always go on cheap or free dates so this isn’t a problem. My best dates have been walks.

  13. #18 by Belle Labs on July 15, 2012 - 12:31 PM

    > …The host always pays.

    So now you’re taking marching orders directly from the Mothership? Sheesh, with a faux men’s movement like this…

    If a restaurant invites you in with their advertising and signage, and then they host you in your dining experience, do *they* pay? Of course not.

    I don’t think you understand the first thing about host/parasite relationships.

  14. #19 by collegegirl on July 18, 2012 - 10:04 AM

    Does it not come across a bit desperate if a woman offers to pay (before a relationship), My brother even said something to this effect to me before, although he’s also said it’s appreciated if a girl offers to pay her own way. Like I genuinely wouldn’t mind doing it, and I know people always say not online, but I don’t know my gut feeling is if a woman offered to take a man out and pay, don’t alarm bells start ringing in the back of his mind that something must be wrong with her, and maybe he can do better?
    I think it’s still just so outside the norm, even for my age group. I also wonder if, some of the guys are saying they wouldn’t think this, even if they would really, because it’s in their best interests to say it, sort of like the way what women say and what they do is often different? Just by the by I think whether a man pays or not is a separate issue to how ‘alpha’ he is, or how desirable he is, it won’t make a woman more or less attracted to someone in the end really, except I don’t know if you made a really big point of “Oh I’m not paying for you” or after chatting at the bar say, buying a drink for yourself and not them, rightly or wrongly that might perhaps come across a bit badly.

    • #20 by P Ray on July 18, 2012 - 12:53 PM

      The fact is, if women were honest about what they wanted – they’d have to reciprocate towards men who met their standards.
      Holding out forever is an indicator that she wants to be a user.
      I’m not sure how many modern men can tolerate a woman they interact with romantically, being a user.

  15. #21 by collegegirl on July 18, 2012 - 10:10 AM

    Also NMH I don’t know I can’t help thinking there must have been something else that led to that, or maybe the way you went about it? Stuff like that can come across a bit lame/ obvious, like sort of going on about or bringing up stuff you think women should like.

    • #22 by P Ray on July 18, 2012 - 12:56 PM

      Yes, NMH has that affliction that more men seem to be getting:
      Observing the difference between what women SAY and what they DO.
      Funnily enough, that seems to make for fewer bad relationships or marriages.
      Isn’t that what women want too?

  16. #23 by collegegirl on July 18, 2012 - 2:03 PM

    Of course. P ray,I wasn’t criticising or anything, I just think there might have been more to it that he hadn’t said, other than just dropping his wealth into the conversation? I mean other men on here have said at other times that money doesn’t automatically = success with women too. I don’t know I got the impression that you thought I disagreed with something, but don’t really know how you got that from my comment?

  17. #24 by collegegirl on July 18, 2012 - 3:55 PM

    I’ve just spotted your first comment, I think you might have missed my point. In a nutshell was saying if a woman offers to pay for everything early on doesn’t make her look desperate?

    • #25 by P Ray on July 18, 2012 - 6:07 PM

      What I said:
      P Ray
      / July 6, 2012

      Some questions:
      1. Why does the date cost money?
      2. A woman who does not want to pay her share of the date, is saying that the man is not worth paying for. (The “my presence is my gift to you” mentality)
      3. Is love about money?
      4. Then she better meet your criteria (if the answer to 3 is a yes).
      Which is why women hate prostitution.

      What you said:
      . In a nutshell was saying if a woman offers to pay for everything early on doesn’t make her look desperate?

      As said previously in Zero Wing: “What you say?”

    • #26 by ruralcounsel on July 29, 2012 - 6:16 AM

      I can’t say that a little desperation in a woman comes across as a bad thing to me. That can also set off the hardwired responses in a male to protect/provide. But it would be good if the woman uses that first date to explain that desperation isn’t the same as bat-shit crazy.

  18. #27 by collegegirl on July 19, 2012 - 11:04 AM

    I guess that was an answer of sorts, well this hypothetical date does cost money, that doesn’t mean all dates cost money, or that they should, or love costs money… wooh exhausting, pretty much lost interest there!

  19. #28 by Original Trouble on July 22, 2012 - 9:14 PM

    My husband and I split our first date, and took turns paying for subsequent dates. I have always been the kind of woman who felt it was preferable to pay for a share of the dating costs versus accrue some kind of mental debt. I earn as much as the majority of guys in this area, and more than many. It seems kind of hypocritical for me to earn an equal or greater paycheck and not be willing to share the costs of dating.

    I don’t think it makes you look desperate to pay. I think it makes you look equal.

  20. #29 by aneroidocean on August 16, 2012 - 7:51 PM

    A host by the very nature of the definition is offering something in one way or another (either outright paying for things or providing entertainment, etc…) when hosting. The host/guest relationship has never really been associated with dating, though.

    People should pay for themselves. If a person wants to treat the other person, that’s their prerogative. Simply asking someone to do something doesn’t mean that you’re going to pay for them. If I ask a friend to join me for a concert, unless I specifically offer to pay their way, they wouldn’t expect me to pay for them. Them wanting to go to the concert with me doesn’t mean that just because I brought up the idea or invited them that I’d be obligated or expected to pay.

    Why would this be any different for dating? We’re not in the 1950s anymore, when by and large men were expected to provide financially for women.

    Is it wrong of you to offer? Not if you want to. Is it wrong of her to offer to pay at least her half? No.

    It is a huge positive trait in a woman when she offers to pay for herself (financial responsibility, politeness, etc…).

  21. #30 by dulin on August 20, 2012 - 12:53 AM

    If a man invites me on a date, I don’t necessarily know if I can afford to pay for my meal, because he’s choosing the restaurant. That’s a pretty significant concern. There’s a good reason the host always pays: I accept the date without knowing how expensive it will be.

    That said, you don’t need to spend much money, if any. Just locate fun things around the city. I’m not going to judge someone for not spending any money, but I don’t get a positive impression of a guy who expects me to shell out >$30 just so that I can talk to him (and I can understand why he’d not want to pay much either, but he did make he decision about where to go…). Seriously, going to a park is fine.

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