I See How This Works – Part 2

[For part one, go here.]

Claire takes a gulp of her drink, finishing it. She quickly signals the bartender for another.

“You should buy me that drink, you know. It’s what men are supposed to do.”

Douglas smiles wanly.

“It’s what men do who are unsuccessful with women. My beer is almost empty, by the way.”

Claire looks very surprised.

“Wait, you want me to buy you a drink?”

Douglas nods his head slowly with a small smirk outlining his mouth. Claire shakes her head.

“I can’t believe this.” Still, she signals the bartender and points to Doug’s beer.

“Thank you. You’ve never bought a drink for a man before?”

Claire appears thoughtful for a moment.

“Well, I actually bought drinks on the first date with the guy who cancelled tonight’s date.”

Doug continues his questions.

“Has a man ever bought you a drink?”

“Sure, every time I go out with my girlfriends, there’s always some guy buying me and my friends drinks.”

“Have you or your girlfriends ever gone out with a guy who’s bought you a drink?”

“No, not that I know of…” Claire catches herself. “I don’t get your point.”

Douglas leans back.

“You just made my point for me. Guys who buy drinks for women don’t usually go out with those women.”

Claire makes a skeptical face while sipping her drink that the bartender has just brought over. Douglas’s beer is now fresh.

“So Mister smarty-pants, you were going to tell me about men and women.”

Douglas replies quickly.

“Not the younger generation, only people in our generation.”

“That makes sense. So what about people in our generation?”

Douglas takes a long drink of his beer before he responds.

“Dating is different than when we were young.”

Claire is not impressed and her face shows it.

“Tell me something I don’t already know.”

Douglas looks at her as he puts down his beer.’

“You’ve been divorced for about four years now, right?”

Claire doesn’t appear surprised.

“Almost five.”

“You’ve had at least one boyfriend and several short-term relationships since you started dating again.”

Claire puts an annoyed look her face.

“I really think you’re a private investigator or something.

“I know probabilities and demographics. People are shockingly predictable if you know their age, where they live, and their education.”

Claire leans back and crosses her arms in front of her.

“So where do I live and how many kids do I have?”

Douglas names a suburban community. “And you have three kids, all teenagers. The oldest is applying for college.”

“Fuck, it’s uncanny what you know about me.”

Douglas smirks broadly.

“Nice girls don’t curse.”

“Now you’re being rude again.” Claire is smiling, but not showing any teeth.

“Like I said, I’m good at that.” Douglas continues his smirk and drinks his beer.

“OK, back to this dating thing, you’ve got me intrigued.” Claire tells him.

“Let me ask you a question, where do you get your dating advice?”

Claire looks thoughtful for a moment.

“Well, in the beginning, I didn’t really ask anyone and I didn’t get any dates. Then I started talking to my single girlfriends and then started to get set up on dates through them.”

“How did that go?”

“I don’t know… it was good it was bad… the men seemed so lost and I was so uncomfortable…” Her voices trails off.

“What were you looking for?”

“What my friends told me, for chemistry, whatever that is.”

Douglas laughs softly.

“We both know what chemistry is.”

Claire looks puzzled.

“I really don’t know. I think it’s supposed to be love at first sight or something.”

“Don’t believe the fairy tale, we both too old for that. Chemistry is sexual arousal, nothing more.”

“Hmm, I don’t know about.”

Douglas puts on a determined look.

“Look at it this way, if you didn’t feel some sort of physical attraction for a guy and very quickly, would you sleep with him?”

Clair almost scoffs

“Of course, I wouldn’t, that’s kind of a stupid question.”

Douglas smiles.

“Welcome to chemistry.”

Claire still looks puzzled. Douglas moves on.

“We’ll get back to that later. I’m curious about how you met the men you have dated.”

“Well, a few were setups from friends, divorced guys my age. Most of them wouldn’t shut up about their exes and the shitty deal they got in their divorces. I didn’t feel like a date, I felt like a psychologist.”

Douglas rolls his eyes.

“Guys shouldn’t do that, but they’re told to do that.”

Claire again looks puzzled.

“They’re told to bitch and moan about their ex-wives? They don’t know how off-putting that is?”

Douglas leans in.

“Do you remember the late 70s and early 80s?”

“I was pretty young, but yes.”

“Well, that was a time when men were expected to be more in touch with their feelings, to be more sensitive, to be more emotional and less macho.”

Clair laughs a bit and sips her drink.

“Yeah, don’t be macho, I remember that. But men should be more in touch with their feelings and be willing to open up.”

Douglas wears a satisfied look on his face.

“You’ve proved my point again. Those pissed off divorced men you dated? Yah, they were simply being in touch with their feelings and being more emotional. They were doing what was expected of them as they were growing up.”

Claire looks a bit dubious.

“I guess I see your point.”

“I know you see my point.

“You’re kind of arrogant, do you know that?” Claire doesn’t sound insulting, her voice sounds almost bemused.

Douglas smiles.

“I’m rude and arrogant… one more insult and I’ll get a hat trick.”

Clair smiles and turns to signal to the bartender for another round of drinks for both of them.

“I thought this was going to be uncomfortable, but it’s not.”

Douglas looks serious.

“We’ll get to that part.”

Clair looks equally serious.

“If you’re trying to pick me up, it’s not working.”

Douglas leans in as closely to her as the corner of the bar will allow.

“I’m not trying to pick you up. I’m not even going to ask for your phone number.”

Clair looks surprised.

“What if I gave you my phone number?”

Douglas is still leaning in closely and almost whispers.

“I wouldn’t call you.”

Claire is taken aback.

“You’re a jerk!”

Douglas leans back quickly and throws up his hands.

“Insult hat track! The crowd goes wild!” Several bar patrons turn to look at him.

Clair looks exasperated.

“OK, can we move on here? You were going to tell me about men and women and dating… because you’re so smart and all.”

Douglas swiftly changes his mood to be more serious.

“Before I do, I want to ask you some more questions.”

“OK, go ahead.”

“After you dealt with those burnt out divorced guys, how did you meet your dates?”

Claire lowers her voice.

“I tried online dating. A couple of friends recommended it… but I was really hesitant.”

Douglas sounds reassuring.

“Online dating can work and there’s no need to be embarrassed with doing that.”

“Well, I was kind of embarrassed, but I did meet men.”

“See? It can work.”

“I guess you’re right, I met my ex-boyfriend that way, that was just over a year ago.”

“But it didn’t work out, right?”

“Yeah, we were together about three months. I guess it was good but he was a single father and always busy with his kids and I was really busy at work so it just sort of fizzled…”

“Sorry to hear it, but this is the age for dealing with kids and careers, it’s tough for mothers and fathers.”

Douglas shifts the conversation a bit.

“So tell me more about your online dating experience.”

“It was real hit or miss. The emails I sent out, I never got a response. The emails I received were from totally unsuitable guys, my ex-boyfriend and a few others were the exceptions. I haven’t gone back to online dating since we broke up.”

Douglas has a disappointed look.

“That’s a fairly common experience for women, especially after about 40 or so.”

Claire has an almost pleading expression.

“Why is that?”

“This is where it gets uncomfortable. I fully expect you to throw your drink in my face.”

Claire looks serious.

“I promise I won’t do that.”

“I’ll take you at your word. The reason those guys never responded to your online dating messages is that they are attractive to most women. They have options. So, they date younger women. Women in their 40s have the hardest time dating because they expect to get the same kind of guys they could get when they were younger.”

Claire takes on an odd expression that’s part defensive, part sad.

“Women in their 40s are fabulous. They’ve accomplished so much, they’re beautiful, they have so much to offer. I don’t understand why men don’t find them attractive.”

Douglas looks away briefly and then addresses Claire.

“You mean why don’t the tall, attractive, confident, and successful men find you attractive.”

Claire crosses her arms defensively and stares at Douglas.

“Now this is uncomfortable. Are you telling me I’m not attractive?”

Douglas lets out a sigh.

“The guys you want? Those are guys that most 40-something woman wants. Compared to the 20-somethings and 30-somethings they could easily date, you’re not attractive enough.”

Claire is visibly upset and takes a big swallow of her drink.

“That’s bullshit and you know it. Women get better with age. Men should know that.”

Douglas doesn’t retreat.

“Who says?”

Claire throws up her arms.

“Everyone! I’ve even heard a lot of men say it.”

“OK, I know everyone says that. But those are just words.”

Claire quickly takes on a more questioning mien.

“Just words? I don’t understand.”

“It’s the whole words versus actions thing. A confident, good-looking guy might say he finds 40-something women attractive but his actions are different in that he only dates younger women.”

“Then he’s being stupid.”

“And he’s also keeping the peace and getting what he wants.”

“Men are so stupid.”

“From your point of view and because you’re not getting what you want from certain men, yes, they’re stupid. But let’s move on. I want to know about the other guys you met online.”

Claire is still in defense mode.

“Look, I’m answering all these questions about me and I know nothing about you, just your name. I don’t think that’s fair.”

Douglas is conciliatory.

“I’ll tell you anything you want to know but first tell me more about your online dating experiences.”

Claire is not completely satisfied yet she acquiesces.

“OK, I did respond to some messages and went out with a few guys. They were all pretty nice but not serious long term potential.”

“Why not?”

“I don’t know, they just didn’t feel right to me.”

“It’s that chemistry thing.”

Clair looks surprised and relieved.

“Yes! That’s it! There was no chemistry!”

“Not uncommon. How many messages did you get from guys?”

Claire changes her expression to mild sadness.

“I got a couple a day. Mostly from older guys or really younger guys. The messages were either really long like they were desperate or they were really short like they didn’t care that much. I got some messages from married guys who said they weren’t happy. It was so frustrating.”

“That’s a common experience.”

“You seem to know an awful lot about this.”

“I do a lot of online dating.”

Claire looks almost triumphant

“Finally, I get to learn something about you… you’re single!” She pauses and regards him more closely. “Oh… shit… I remember. Is that why you wouldn’t call me if I gave you my number?”

Douglas laughs loudly and honestly.

“You didn’t respond to my message back then, did you. Don’t worry it took a while for me to remember your profile and match you with the photo. I look at a lot of female profiles.”

Claire is obviously embarrassed and swallows a large gulp of her drink, emptying it.

“I need another drink. You do too. It’s on me again.”

She signals the bartender. Drinks are delivered.

Douglas mollifies her embarrassment.

“Don’t worry, most women didn’t respond. I’m not going to ask you why you didn’t respond, that was last year.

Clair still remains embarrassed.

“I just… well… “

Douglas leans in.

“Stop it, I’m an adult. I don’t take it personally. I send out so many messages and get so few responses. I’m used to it.

Claire’s voice is soft.

“I’m sorry”

Douglas laughs again.

“Good Lord, woman, don’t worry about it! But if you’re ashamed and sorry, so be it. You can do me a favor. Consider it an educational exercise.”

Claire’s face brightens and she nods her head.

“OK, what do I have to do?”

Douglas looks around the bar until he sees what he needs.

“Look over you left shoulder. Do you see those three guys standing around the high-top table?

Claire does what she’s asked.

“I see them.”

“Good. Assume they are single tell me about their dating potential for you.”

Claire looks at them a bit surreptitiously.

“Hmmmm, the guy with the long hair has a pony tail so forget him. The middle guy, he’s got a weak chin and I think his eyes are too close together so he’s out. The last guy… way too short.”

Douglas puts on a subtle smirk.

“OK, did you know what you just did?”

“I’m sure you’re going to tell me.”

“You rejected three guys without even hearing their voices, just on their appearance.”

Claire looks confused.

“I don’t understand.”

“It’s a matter of mindset. A woman usually finds a reason to reject a guy before she’s intimate with him. This is especially true with online dating. There’s always a reason to reject a guy and there’s always another profile to look at or message to read. So, after awhile, there are practically no guys left.”

Claire is unconvinced.

“I still don’t understand.”

Douglas is not fazed but this.

“I want you to look at those three guys again but this time I want you find something positive about them.”

Claire doesn’t look convinced.

“I don’t know about this…” She turns again to regard the three men. “Ok… the long-haired guy, he has nice blue eyes…”

Douglas is pleased.

“Good, now the other two?”

Claire looks again, taking her time.

“The middle guy… hmmmm… actually, he has really nice hair… and the short guy, that’s easy, he’s really well dressed.” She turns back to face Douglas who was smiling.

“See that wasn’t so hard, was it?”

“I don’t see your point.”

“When you look for something good, you usually find it.”

Claire is still unconvinced.

“Platitudes… just platitudes… I’m not going to date any of those guys, after all.”

“I know, but when you start doing online dating again, you need to be able to see guys in a different light.”

“Who says I’m going to start online dating again?”

Douglas looks pleased with himself.

“I do because it’s inevitable. After your cancelled date, your conversation with me, and that little learning exercise, you’ll be re-writing your profile and looking at guy’s profiles, but differently.”

Claire takes on a coy look.

“If I put up my profile again, are you going to send me a message?”

Douglas smirks broadly.

“Would you respond to a message from a rude, arrogant, jerk?”

Claire laughs lightly.

“Maybe.”

Douglas shifts in his seat.

“It’s time for me to leave.”

Claire is a little disappointed.

“This is the best conversation I’ve had in a long time.”

“It’s been interesting to say the least.”

“And you’re not going to give me your phone number and you won’t call me if I gave you mine.”

Douglas is firm.

“I’m a man, I am bound by my word. Thanks for the drinks.”

Claire watches him leave.

[This dialog is a mash-up of all the conversations I've had with women this age in the past two years or so.  I put it in this format because my normal posts can be too abstract. Many people learn from the dialog approach just as many people require pictures.]

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  1. #1 by deti on December 22, 2011 - 2:13 PM

    This is like that R. Kelly opera song.

  2. #3 by Jason on December 22, 2011 - 2:23 PM

    Brilliant.

  3. #4 by just visiting on December 22, 2011 - 3:28 PM

    Advice I’ll be following. Long post but very good.

  4. #5 by OffTheCuff on December 22, 2011 - 5:19 PM

    At first I thought this was PM’s red-pill fantasy, sort of manosphere porn, but if this actually happened… even in pieces… hats off!

    One of your best posts.

    • #6 by theprivateman on December 22, 2011 - 7:12 PM

      I have conversations like this with women all the time. Perhaps because these are women of a certain age, they are more amenable to hearing what I have to say. Very few women put up a stiff defense.

  5. #7 by Professor Beta on December 22, 2011 - 5:44 PM

    He remembered her profile but she completely forgot about him and his message. What a great twist in the story! I wonder if men remember women better than women remember men. I sometimes get the impression that men merely pass through women’s lives and are of no interest once they have served some purpose.

    • #8 by P Ray on December 24, 2011 - 10:37 AM

      Unless other women in her circle of friends want him, or she needs a service that only he can provide at a price she can afford,
      yes, most men do pass through women’s lives invisibly.
      The only men women notice, are the men that other women are in competition for.

  6. #9 by The Seething Lurker on December 22, 2011 - 7:50 PM

    Good post, PM. I’m getting together with a forty-something “fabulous” woman tomorrow. She is kind of a sad case because I think she’s realized she has hit the wall, but can’t stop hopping from cock to cock. I, of course, am only to glad to be of service. It’s the least I can do. Happy holidays!

    • #10 by sestamibi on December 23, 2011 - 9:29 PM

      Good luck. Don’t catch anything.

  7. #11 by Simon Rierdon on December 22, 2011 - 8:52 PM

    Very good PM I really liked your use of dialectic. I can see a lot of the same in conversations I’ve had with women around our age over the past few years. They don’t like it at first but they generally want to jump your bones afterwards.

    • #12 by theprivateman on December 22, 2011 - 9:19 PM

      Dialectic? Isn’t that a kind of grease used on spark plugs? Don’t get all clever with me, bub.

  8. #13 by dannyfrom504 on December 22, 2011 - 9:02 PM

    Check your IM tomorrow. We’ll discuss this in private Tio. This is good.

  9. #14 by Bronan the Barbarian! on December 23, 2011 - 1:17 PM

    Great follow-up to the first post. Loved the dialogue format.

  10. #15 by Miss_Fu on December 23, 2011 - 10:28 PM

    Very entertaining and informative. Will you be including something like this in your dating advice for women course?

  11. #16 by blogster on December 25, 2011 - 7:43 AM

    terrific post – great conclusion. ahh the eternal solipsism of the female mind.

    the thing is, the mindsets, particularly this generation, are so ingrained from a young age, that by the time they’re mid 30s, they’ve had 20 years of living in a self indulgent, insular bubble.

    Couple that with the powerful human tendency for living in denial, confirmation bias and the rationalisation hamster and you generally have women who can’t or WON’T change their views and approaches, despite overwhelming undeniable evidence to the contrary.

    • #17 by a girl on December 28, 2011 - 12:04 PM

      Hey Blogster, some of us admit we have been misinformed and try to change things. I do believe it is a slow process but it can be done.

  12. #18 by Lost on December 28, 2011 - 11:56 AM

    I thoroughly enjoyed this dialogue story, well done.

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