A Dilemma For The Man With Charisma

A colleague and friend, Jaime, presented a very vexing question. Some background – this friend is 30 years old and is honestly looking for a long term relationship with a woman of good character. He is of Colombian descent and has a very traditional view of women in the context of a committed relationships. Jaime knows all about the Manosphere approach to life and is well versed in the Venusian arts (Pick Up Artistry).

Jaime asked me this question: “If a man uses PUA to attract and seduce a woman, doesn’t that show she’s a woman of poor character?”

I speculate that only 20% of men use their Charisma for dark reasons and have no intention of finding themselves in a long term relationship. The remaining 80% of men use their Charisma (whether natural or learned) to attract women for the purposes of securing a long term relationship. Jaime is of this group.

There is a complicating factor. Jaime travels to Colombia often enough and he reports that girls there do not respond to American-style Charisma. “You can’t play hard to get and you can’t ‘neg them. You have to smooth them with all sorts of compliments and romantic talk.” Before he figured that out, he told me that he was shot down consistently with his American approach. Colombian culture still operates under certain social expectations. Being a smart fellow, Jaime adapted. “I can’t believe all the [flowery, romantic] shit I was saying to these girls, I was like, what the fuck?” But he was successful when he changed tactics.

His original question is understandable. A woman who allows herself to be seduced with American-style Charisma can very well be showing her poor character. His question makes clear that we have cast off enough social expectations to liberate women so they can respond to their animal instincts. Jaime doesn’t want that kind of woman for something long term. I don’t blame him.

Jaime’s question vexes me because I don’t have a clear, satisfactory answer and I sense that I should, that I’m missing something utterly obvious. Many men will simply state that yes, women who respond sexually to their animalistic natures are of poor character. For some reason, that answer vexes me more. This makes the search for a long term relationship even more challenging for the man with Charisma. Women will respond sexually and by consummating the act too quickly, this eliminates another woman. Yet the standard advice is for a man to have sex with a woman within five real dates or so.

There’s usually lots of discussion on this over at Hooking Up Smart.

Maybe I’ll join Jamie on his next adventure in Colombia.

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  1. #1 by just visiting on October 21, 2011 - 3:40 PM

    Well, that depends on if you value femininity. I made a similar comment at Bellita’s. The current dating system requires women to gear down into masculine energy immediately. And we’re not just talking about the decision to sleep with a man.

    You have a very small window of time to pitch your virtues and assorted feminine traits and skills. You have to be very good with projecting quickly and effectively. But let’s go back and look at the word “projecting.” Yeah, exactly. Masculine.

    A feminine approach requires time. Time to get around modesty and to display. To allow receptiveness.

    As for romance, I require it. I can’t speak for other women, but I just would not be able to open up.

    So, yeah. I’m pretty much screwed. Perhaps I could learn to like cats.

    • #2 by P Ray on October 21, 2011 - 11:42 PM

      You mean you require romance, from a guy you want.
      Not the same thing.
      Women tell all men they require romance … then reap a bountiful harvest of nights out, jewellery and experiences …
      and tell many of those men “I’m not feeling it”.
      The reason you are not getting your romance … is because men want to know what YOU are bringing to the table. The princess is in another castle.

      Women complaining about not getting romance, I’ve found, are actually complaining about “not getting romance from the guy I’m interested in”.

      There’s a difference, but few people dare to correct that sentence.

      • #3 by just visiting on October 22, 2011 - 2:10 AM

        If I’m dating someone, chances are, he’s the guy I want. Though I’m coming from very limited “dating” experience. There have been 2 men. My husband, whom I was with from the age of 17, and an affair partner who I was with in my mid thirties. (Hubby was on year 6 of a pain killer addiction. Sex life went to hell. I’m not wired for celibacy.)

        The romance aspect is something that allows me to open up emotionally. It doesn’t have to be nights out and jewelry, but there has to be something that is displayed that I matter. That someone has taken the time to do something special for me. I have no other way of describing it, other than it it helps me open up. Being vulnerable to someone requires my trust. This is one way of helping in that.

        The other aspect is this. If I’m going to be sexually involved with someone, I’m going to bond with that person. There’s no getting around it. I didn’t spend my teens, twenties, thirties and now forties riding the carousel. I’m not rewired. So, as corny and silly as this sounds, sex will bond me to another person. So, yeah, I’d like to know that I matter. Can that be established in three dates? No. So, when I do start dating, I imagine things are going to get dicey.

    • #4 by Alex on October 22, 2011 - 10:48 AM

      *SPIN* that wheel hard hamster!!!!!!

      - If I’m going to be sexually involved with someone, I’m going to bond with that person.

      BUT

      - I’m not wired for celibacy

      - an affair partner who I was with in my mid thirties

      You can generate enough electricity to power NYC.

      • #5 by just visiting on October 22, 2011 - 12:05 PM

        I’m not wired for celibacy, and I’m not someone who has a low drive. This does not negate bonding. I’m beginning to think there are a few male hamsters running around

        As for having an affair in my mid thirties lack of sex was the driving force. I was very clear about being married with a family, and that I wasn’t going anywhere. In other words, I had no intention of trading up. The risk of bonding and falling in love (which I did) didn’t change that fact.

        When my husband found out about the affair, murder damn near ensued. I told him that as much as I loved him, I couldn’t live in a sexless marriage. The affair was the only thing that motivated him to get off the pills. I promised to end the affair, and did. Our marriage went on until earlier this year when I ended it. Addiction had become a problem again, only this time it was worse than pills.

      • #6 by NMH on October 22, 2011 - 12:28 PM

        Good thing you husband was not a muslim because he would have had to murder you by law.

        Maybe a take over of western culture by Islam won’t be so bad for society.

      • #7 by just visiting on October 22, 2011 - 12:51 PM

        Oh, too be sure, the slut shaming was in full force . But keep in mind that if I was a muslim woman, I could have divorced my husband after 4 months of non sex.

        Question: What’s your definition of monogamy? If it’s two people in a mutually exclusive sexual relationship, then I ask the next question. Can there be monogamy without sex?

      • #8 by NMH on October 22, 2011 - 12:55 PM

        I see monogamy as a commitment NOT to have sex with others. If you have sex in the relationship (marriage or LTR) or do not have sex, you are still monogamous as long as you do not have sex with others. Once you have sex with others the monogamy is broken.

        Now I have a question for you: do you feel guilty about having an affair? Do you regret having the affair?

      • #9 by just visiting on October 22, 2011 - 1:07 PM

        This is where I totally see the hamster in myself, and yet…….
        When it was just about sex, I didn’t feel guilt. This is probably because I’d done everything to try to get through to my husband. I was at the point that divorce was an option running through my head. I’m traditional, and I see the breaking up of a marriage as traumatic for the people involved as well as the children. The affair was a way of buying me time to get through to my husband.

        The guilt came into play when it became more than sex, not only for myself, but the person I was involved with. This is how I found out that I’m not above bonding with someone physically. The romance aspect crept in , and the emotional barriers were breached.

      • #10 by NMH on October 22, 2011 - 1:16 PM

        Interesting. Your feelings are perfectly consisitent with what a poster named “Brendan” said on some thread on some manosphere blog. He basically felt that most men will feel some guilt about having affairs with their wives, because they are usually still emotionally committed to them. With women, its different. If the wife has an affair, it means she is transfering the emotional involvement to the man she is having the affair with. For this reason, she tends not to feel guilty about having the affair because she has already mentally divorced herself from the husband anyway. I think he argued that this is the reason why women having affairs in the relationship is far more destructive than a man having an affair.

        I dont condone anybody having an affair but the things I have heard are consistent with this idea.

        I have a gf who I like a lot but who doesnt turn me on that much. I know that she is not satisfied with the sex life. But I still expect her to be monogamous to me. If she cheats on me, its over. Also, Ill probably never marry her because I know as long as she is not sexually satisfied then there is a risk of her having an affair on me.

      • #11 by Rhahael on October 22, 2011 - 1:22 PM

        Wait, wait, wait, wait!!!

        4 months without sex? Is your husband eunuch, is he more than 70 years old, did they take his balls?
        You see, it’s biologically impossible for a man to pass this amount of time without sex, be it actual sex, even with a hooker, or just masturbation. If there is no sex on the relationship at all it’s usually the women’s fault, because for the bitchier a spouse can ever be if she wishes to have sex in the end (or beginning) of the day he WILL accept, even if he rejects for one day or two out of anger (or whatever reason). Any more suitable details about that sexless backgrounds?

      • #12 by just visiting on October 22, 2011 - 1:26 PM

        Go back and read. There was a pill addiction at play. It messed with his ability to have sex.

      • #13 by NMH on October 22, 2011 - 1:32 PM

        I disagree, Rhalel- I can now go a long time without sex. I have found that for me, sex drive is cumulative on a number of things, including 1.) testosterone levels (which slowly go down after 30) and 2.) how sexually attractive the women around you are. I am approaching 50, so my drive is much lower. My gf, while attractive, is not what I think of as “hot.” Additionally, most of the woman where I live are overweight obese so there are very few sexually attractive women around. In these conditions, my sex drive is pretty low, and so I can go a long time (months) without sex, but with the ocassional whack off session maybe every couple of weeks, if I happen to walk by a hot chick.

        Now lets say I moved to Hollywood , or CHATSWORTH, CA. Then, being surrounded by hot lithe gorgeous women, my sex drive would increase.

        I think sex drive for men is very contextual.

      • #14 by Alex on October 22, 2011 - 1:48 PM

        *As for having an affair in my mid thirties lack of sex was the driving force*

        Excellent!!! Now when a wife withholds sex from a husband he has every right to go out and have an affair.

        Thank you just visiting.

      • #15 by just visiting on October 22, 2011 - 1:53 PM

        Well, that’s the thing. I didn’t transfer my feeling for my husband to the other man. I didn’t mentally or emotionally divorce my husband. I had two separate sets of feeling for both.

        The ability to have sex with the other person was strongly biology driven. You might as well ask me to feel guilty for eating a sandwhich after starving. Cold, but true. Would I have slept with the other man if things were normal sexually with my husband? Afterall, the man was attractive, was someone I could love. The answer is no. Temptation would have been there, but I would not have given in to it. We can have many high ideals, but at the end of the day, we are flesh and blood. Pushing the limits of our biology is asking for trouble when it comes to our ideals.

      • #16 by just visiting on October 22, 2011 - 2:11 PM

        If a wife is with holding sex, then yes. I’ll go one further. If she won’t maintain her attractiveness in a reasonable manner, then she’s risking biology.

      • #17 by P Ray on October 22, 2011 - 8:43 PM

        “I’m not wired for celibacy, and I’m not someone who has a low drive.”

        So while you may have had only 2 serious relationships, your “number” does not include those who “didn’t count”.

        As the movie tagline goes … “What’s Your Number”?

      • #18 by just visiting on October 22, 2011 - 10:06 PM

        If you’re expecting stories of carousels, hand jobs and the like, please go back and read. I was 17 when my husband and I got together. You’re looking for a witch(Slut) to burn.
        Just curious
        I should have remained a sexual martyr to my hubbys pill addiction for how long? My entire life?

        For the record
        Boy friend at 15. Lot’s of hand holding and one make out session.
        Boyfriend at 16, assorted heavy petting and oral sex.

        Good grief

      • #19 by just visiting on October 22, 2011 - 10:38 PM

        Perhaps I should have divorced him, turned his life and finances upside down , put the kids through turmoil while saying I’m not haaaaaaaapy. Or, y’know perhaps he could have kicked the pills long before critical mass. I’m a strong, feminine woman with character. But I didn’t take vows to the church, and I’m far too earthly to be an angel. I

      • #20 by NMH on October 23, 2011 - 8:08 AM

        Just Visiting- I think you could be a chick with high testosterone or who got a couple of blasts of fetal testosterone more than the average double Xer in utero. If you have not tried weight lifting, you may want to. You may get muscles pretty easily, and could be competitive. Muscles on women improve their SMV.

      • #21 by Sam on October 23, 2011 - 8:31 AM

        Marriage is a commitment of exclusive sex, but that exclusivity is conditioned on the other providing sex regularly, as they are able. It is not a commitment to celibacy.

        From a religious perspective I would definitely say that she should have rather divorced, since her husband had failed to maintain his half of the marriage contract. Perhaps she could have threatened an affair before actually doing it. Either way, once her husband has failed to maintain his commitments, he has no claim on her sexuality anymore. (Unless it was an accident beyond his control, or disease, in which case he is not responsible, but that is not the case here)

      • #22 by just visiting on October 23, 2011 - 10:47 AM

        Might be a Danish thing. I recall that Olympic testing has to make certain allowances for Danish women athletes.

        I think the comments have suprised me. The idea that someone can have a good healthy drive and not be racking up the partner count seems to garner a lot of disbelief. Then again, I was with my husband very early in life, so I was locked in. Still, the only time that I felt compelled to to seek out sex in the manner that a man would was after a few years of going through my husbands addiction. I don’t think that a woman has to be high drive in that case. Though she needs a good dose of character to hold off for as long as possible. I don’t think men have any idea how many times a women gets approached.

        And healthy drive or not, the idea of sleeping with someone after 3 or 5 dates freaks me out. I’m not sure how I’m going to handle this when I start dating.

      • #23 by P Ray on October 23, 2011 - 8:57 PM

        It may simply be that you don’t find most men attractive enough to be in a relationship with.
        That’s okay though … past your 30s, and with the idea that the man has to audition,
        good luck with your dating.
        Everyone makes their choices, and takes the consequences…

      • #24 by just visiting on October 23, 2011 - 11:43 PM

        PRay,

        If I was a carousel rider, then I suppose it wouldn’t bother me to sleep with some guy I’d met 5 dates previously. And I’ll be the first to admit that this attitude may bring many cats into my life.

      • #25 by NMH on October 24, 2011 - 6:27 AM

        My guess is that the only kind of guys that will be willing to wait five dates or more for sex will have other personality qualities that will turn you off (eg too little dominance, for example, he might ask your opinion about something; excessive kindness) so you wont even make it to date three.

        I think it is better for women and men to wait 10 dates or more to have sex. But most men know that a woman is looking to disqualify him and so he pushes sex as quickly as possible before she has a chance to.

        Who is as fault for this change at courting behavior? Who has the idiotic principle that one personality charctersitic that is not liked is enough to call LJBF? Women.

        If you get the cats, you and your gender only have yourselves to blame.

      • #26 by just visiting on October 24, 2011 - 12:23 PM

        i don’t doubt what you say. But given the choice between slutting it up or collecting cats, well, that’s not much choice. Lose/lose for me. So, at least my way I’m not destroying myself.

  2. #27 by NMH on October 21, 2011 - 3:54 PM

    I think this is pretty easy: What a man should do is game her for several dates, and when you are at the point of making out and fondling her boobs then you need to express an interest in an LTR. If she dumps you, then she is a woman of poor character.If she says she wants sex without commitment, then she is a woman of poor character. If she lies about anything, she is a woman of poor character.

    If you, or her, don’t make the LTR offer at this point than I think its quite reasonable to think that the woman is getting in deep with a man with potentially poor character. If he pumps and dumps, its her own fault.

  3. #28 by TGP on October 21, 2011 - 3:55 PM

    Is female attraction cultural or biological? That seems to be the question to me. If travelling south of the border requires a 180 degree shift in tactics, that suggests the cultural influence is greater than is usually recognized.

    • #29 by Rhahael on October 21, 2011 - 5:57 PM

      Cultural influences only repress your impulse to follow your instincts, like when you don’t punch people in the face only for the sake of “not making a scene” or just because you don’t want to go to jail.

  4. #30 by just visiting on October 21, 2011 - 4:37 PM

    culture affects the gene pool. The gene pool affects the culture. And so on.

  5. #31 by Rhahael on October 21, 2011 - 5:51 PM

    Frankly, and I’m really sorry to say that, your american women suck way more than I expected. I live in Brasil and also here no women but bored whores with too much free time and too little responsibility or the lowest golddiggers respond well to what you describe as game approach. There are specific places in which you find them to make it work, like nightclubs and bars at certain times, and outside that microcosmo the “normal” girls usually dismiss you as some promiscuous man trying to get into their pants. They catter well to cumpliments and romantic dates, like flowers, poetry, all those old-fashioned things.

    Unfortunately it seems the younger ones (really young; two generations below me) are getting too much information about how to be a bitch from cable tv and american movies-series…

    • #32 by Lost on October 21, 2011 - 6:45 PM

      Rhahael,
      You’re right, South American women are way more responsive in traditional courting. A lot of it has to do to the fact that women in South America are still raised to be feminine and to live a feminine lifestyle.

      Its the same in north america IF you meet a more traditionally raised feminine small town girl, a man with game will have to tone it down a few pegs and court her more in a traditional way.

      Doesn’t mean the guy has to be a beta bitch, wining and dining, flowers and the likes are just tools of the seduction, and in no way did i actually loose my back bone.

      Whereas the present view of game is more centric to the ego filled man-woman who are taught that they deserve a necklace make of real stars from every man that walks the earth. therefore the rules of courting her must be “harsher” in order to get ourselves on a better more equal playing field,

      just like flowers and wining and dining, negs, flaking and the likes are just the tools of the trade… just not all jobs require the same tools

  6. #33 by Lost on October 21, 2011 - 6:51 PM

    Have you thought about throwing in the woman’s cycle in the equation?
    An ovulating woman will be more susceptible to engage on her impulses to say, fuck on the first date, yet that doesn’t necessarily mean she’s ill natured.
    this should really only be considered on a case by case basis as woman are very emotionally driven, and can act on the slightest whim of their emotions.
    This is where a man needs to rely on his gut instinct and go on a case by case basis.

    • #34 by Rhahael on October 22, 2011 - 12:28 PM

      Considering her cycle or not…
      If she’s susceptible to engage in sex so easily with you while ovulationg, what will stop her to do so with anyone else in the same situation?

      There’s a study that shows that women in LTRs send even MORE sexual signs to other men while ovulating than women outside LTRs.

      • #35 by Lost on October 22, 2011 - 2:07 PM

        There’s nothing stopping her but her conscience.

        This topic has been beaten and battered by Roissy a few times.

  7. #36 by flyfreshandyoung on October 22, 2011 - 12:15 PM

    It all comes down to status.

    In Colombia, though I’ve never been there, from what I understand men are still given default higher status which lessens the amount you have to use game to alter the status balance. Their culture still values men, and there is overall gender inequality (i.e. a girl needs a man to have economic security and to move up in life). So when you’re interacting with a girl, she more likely than not has already given you a higher status than hers by nature of the gender dynamics. Therefore, a lot of “American style game” is simple overgaming, because a lot of what it involves are ways to alter the skewed status balance in your favor. Therefore, you don’t need to tease or be as aloof or an asshole as much, but rather nicer, often romantic gestures will actually work in your favor- aka vulnerability game, something you use to endear a woman to you at times when you have established a much higher status over her.

    In America, our women are more or less taught from a very early age that they are above most men, and that they don’t need them (fish, bicycle). This skews the status balance away from the average man, so much so that a lot of American women actively look down upon them. Therefore, the “darker” aspects of game, as you might call it, are necessary in many cases to jolt a woman’s hindbrain into a reevaluation of the status dynamic.

  8. #37 by Dannyfrom504 on October 22, 2011 - 8:17 PM

    PM-

    You just hit my specialty. I prefer Spanish speaking women. my approaches and interactions are VERY different with them than with white American women. I know. Good deal of you lr past so I know you know what I’m talking about.

    There’s shit I’ll say to spanish women (in esp-pang-yoll- btw) that I’d NEVER tell a white girl.

  9. #38 by Dannyfrom504 on October 22, 2011 - 8:39 PM

    Sometimes I hate my iPhone. Fml.

  10. #39 by lifecoach on October 23, 2011 - 5:38 AM

    One of the premises of PUA/”game”/… is that there are extremely few “women of character”, and for all the other ones thrills enabled by sexual charisma are the overwhelming (if not sole) motivation to couple. As Heartiste says, for women attraction is not a choice.

    If the above is true either you wait years (decades) to find one of the very rare women whose character is stronger than their addiction to thrills, or you enable that addiction over time with repeated actions of sexual charisma, and then a long term relationship is nothing more than a series of short term relationships with the same girl. You can develop some more intimate or emotional side to that story, but she will leave you if you stop enabling her fix of thrills.

    This is eloquently described in this comment on an LTR post Spearhead:

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/08/24/is-game-in-marriage-always-worth-it/#comment-38675
    «Jabberwocky August 24, 2010 at 07:09

    As a happily married man I find it ironic that in order to make sure my wife cares about me, I have to insure that I don’t care too much about her.

    Her emotions are all over the place and don’t necessarily reflect anything of actual significance. I have to detach myself from her emotionally so that I can always maintain the appropriate frame. No matter what is going on I have to act like I’m above it, that her mortal concerns are of no real interest to the god that I am.

    Don’t get me wrong. I tell her things that make her feel better, or if she is acting out against me, that shut her up, but I do it in an emotionally detached, almost clinical way.

    I feel more like her life coach than an equal partner. It is what it is.»

    The sad side of sexual charisma, which Heartiste has fully acknowledged and owned, is accepting that for most women males are drones who enable their thrills addiction and if you don’t play that role you don’t get laid (except as payment for other services you give her).

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