I walked over to the gourmet burger place for dinner this evening. Waiting in line behind me was a beautiful and stylishly dressed woman, though probably 10 years older than me. That would make her around 60, quite possibly older. She was arranging a newspaper in her hands so she could read an article.
“Anything good in the news?” I asked.
“I’m looking to read about Elizabeth Taylor, it’s probably the least tragic thing to read today.” She had the most charming Southern accent. I agreed with her assessment of the news and we exchanged just a few more words.
I ordered my burger at the ordering counter and then walked a few feet over to the convenience store for a smoke with the guys over there, the half-brothers who owned the place and who were always on duty. They refer to me as “Writer Rider” because of my profession and my vehicle.
As the burger place takes about 15 minutes to prepare their food, I wandered back there after my smoke. There was the stylish woman sitting at a table waiting for her to go order. I walked over and asked if she had found anything interesting in the newspaper. Game has taught me to be quite willing to talk to just about anyone.
I wasn’t looking to run Game, I was just very curious about this attractive and stylish Southern belle. She was open and friendly. We chatted about nothing in particular. I did learn that she was from the Bristol, Tennessee area. I mentioned that my mother’s family was from the Cumberland Gap region in Kentucky.
I also learned that she’s a local, like me. I had asked her if she was a visitor. I assumed as much because of her charming and educated Southern accent. It was a pleasant surprise to know that we were neighbors in a certain sense. She lives less than a mile North of me in a very exclusive enclave community immediately adjacent to my town.
Game has also taught me to be very observant about people. This women had perfect white teeth, a nicely coiffed and short hair arrangement, smooth and almost alabaster skin, and little or no fat on her upper arms. She was also wearing nice makeup and her clothes fit her quite well. She was rather slender. Frankly, she was damned gorgeous.
She was quite willing to smile and to be warmly polite to me. It was rather disarming because such poise and manners are exceedingly rare things to find down here.
I noticed no wedding ring and assumed that she was single because she would have likely accompanied her significant other or even just a man she was dating to such a burger place. She was quite alone.
As the beeper buzzed to alert me that my own to go order was ready, I interrupted the pleasant conversation to go to the counter to pick up my food. On turning away from the counter, I found her standing in anticipation of her order being ready soon. I introduced myself at that point. “It was very nice talking to you, I’m Private Man”.
“I’m Eileen (name changed). I do hope to see you again.” She smiled honestly as she said that.
As we are both local to this small community, I fully expect to see her again. As I was unsure about her age, I was quite reluctant to give my business card and say “well, seeing each other can be arranged.” She had an ageless beauty and could be over 65. That might have been awkward.
But I will make a point to be more often at the local grocery store where I know she shops. There really is only one local grocery store.
No matter, there are some important observations and take away lessons here.
1. Eileen looked good. She was well-dressed, had put on make up, and lacked the slovenly, “casual” appearance all too common with women out in public. Her style caught my eye. I could tell that she worked on her figure, too (no upper arm fat, remember?)
2. She was warm, friendly, and pleasant. Of course, this shouldn’t be surprise from a woman obviously raised in the Southern tradition. Regardless, it attracted me almost instinctively. The feminine attracts the masculine.
3. She showed no signs of being uncomfortable or put-upon by being in a crowded restaurant with all sorts of people being too close and at one point, rather pushy.
All in all, Eileen was wearing the delightful ensemble of a naturally feminine woman of good character. This put me on my absolute best behavior. Any desire to run some Game was whisked away and I found myself reverting to the manners my mother had taught me so well. Did I revert to those NiceGuy characteristics I have worked so hard to expunge from my soul? To a certain extent, yes. I just felt that Gaming a woman like this would be somehow cheap and tacky, beneath her and me alike.
Here’s another take away lesson: A woman of truly good and honestly feminine character should bring out the gentleman in any man, player or not.
While Eileen and I only chatted for five minutes, I was somewhat enthralled with the whole exchange. It’s amazing what femininity and good character can do. If I run into her again, this blog’s readers will certainly be informed of the exchange between us.
03/25/2011
I did a bit of online snooping. Even with just limited information I learned that she is 62, likely married to a man who is 77, and has three grown children. I even learned how much she paid in property taxes last year. She’s wealthy, or her husband is. The amount of public knowledge available on the Internet is very scary indeed. Note to self: continue to be anonymous.
NMH
/ March 25, 2011On rare occasion you see a very attractive women in her late 50′s or sixties. Usually they are in excellent shape (youthful figure, very little fat), face has aged well, great dressers. The rarity should not be this way.
I confess I am dating someone 5 years older than me (she’s 52), but she does not look her age. She spends a lot of time in the gym and has great arms and abs. No personality disorder has revealed itself yet.
Perhaps you may have Neil Strauss’s fate: In one of his books he described being charmed by a woman in her 60′s (and a colonoscopy bag) and banging her. It happens.
Workshy Joe
/ March 25, 2011Wow. How old are you privateman? Late 50s, early 60s?
That lady is around my mother’s age. Given her age, its pretty rare for my mother to get asked out. Recently though, a guy asked her out when she was doing volunteer work and she accepted.
After the first date, she lost interest in him and I asked her what the guy did wrong. The staggering thing was that he didn’t really do anything untoward. She said he was quite handsome and reasonably well-off. About her age.
Reading between the lines though, he tried to impress her and qualified himself too much. That’s it!
I was stunned. It seems that even senior citizens need Game.
theprivateman
/ March 25, 2011I’m 49.
Tinderbox
/ March 25, 2011Eileen fulfills the traditional social contract by striving to be feminine, gracefully attractive, and classy. It is fine to be a gentleman and even chivalric with a woman like this, behavior that would otherwise be considered “beta” when dealing with a feminist or crass woman (which covers most of the younger generations today). A genteel Southern woman like this from an older generation will appreciate classiness in return, as long as it’s given by a masculine male. In other words continue to accentuate your alpha qualities such as masculinity, confidence, strength, humor, and intrigue; but the caddish/assholish aspects of modern game could be played down.
After all, she is a woman and game her you must to some extent unless you’re simply looking for a tea party or burger companion. She’s married and you must decide what it is that you’re pursuing with her. Whether she’s open to a discreet affair remains to be seen, but the chances are fair. Consider that her 77-year old husband at fifteen years older is not likely to match her more robust desires in bed or in life. That’s a big age difference even among seniors, and she may be flattered by your younger attentions provided that it’s respectful, hits her romantic/adventurous brain centers and is not just about a bang.
theprivateman
/ March 25, 2011Excellent comment regarding the social contract.
Such a classy woman I would never pursue if she were indeed married. Should I see her again, I might present a mild flirtation just to let her know that her effort at maintaining her end of the social contract is appreciated.
cptnapalm
/ March 26, 2011The immediate reaction to a Southern woman reminds me of this time I was in a local coffee shop. Lots of people, couples, men, women, are in the place when this girl walks in. No one pays her much heed, despite her attractiveness. She gets to the counter and a flow of pure Alabama Southern drawl with all the sweet femininity anyone could ask for came forth. The place went silent and everyone just watched her. The men in the place, myself included, all sort of lit up. The guy baristas immediately discovered manners. The women had nothing but the most venomous, viscous looks with matching defensive body postures. One of them, whose boyfriend was ogling Ms. Alabama most indiscreetly, slapped him on the arm. She thanked and wished the employees a wonderful day. After she left, there was, from the men, a collective sigh of longing, I swear.
theprivateman
/ March 26, 2011True femininity is a wonder to behold.
My mother had a Southern accent and used it like a katana to cut through Northeast rudeness with a skill and incredible precision. It was awesome. Though I was raised in the Northeast, my mother did teach me Southern manners and I can fall back on that when the social situation requires.
Outside of the South, there is a desperate shortage of the gracious femininity. I was out running errands last night and I was hoping to run in Eileen again, so much was her impact on me. Why is that so few dating/relationship advisers recommend being more feminine to their clients and audience? It seems so simple, so obvious.
Yes, being feminine is haaaarrrrrdddd. Oh, please…
NMH
/ March 26, 2011The problem is that the sweet, charming, demure southern women in the past are becoming more like the uppity snobs in “Designing Women.”.
I dated a “Designing Women” type for 8 years and she eventually broke up with me. Although I didn’t realize at the time (didn’t know about the manosphere), looking back I realize she was one of the most egocentric self-absorbed women that I had encountered personally. But the sad thing is her looks and personality considered all-together, she is better than 95% of the women her age.
American women suck.. And they can’t even do that right.
collegeslacker
/ March 26, 2011Man, I can totally relate.
The girl I was with over Christmas break absolutely oozed femininity. I loved being around her. Always so sweet, always deferring to me, always eager to please. No game playing, no frame wars. I had to check myself frequently to avoid overgaming her- she just was not like the usual girls I normally have to deal with. Honestly, it threw me in a loop for awhile. But, she liked me and that was enough for her. The fact that she is drop dead gorgeous helped as well.
At the time I chalked it up to innocence, but looking back it wasn’t innocence at all- it only appeared like innocence because she had rejected our cultures “You go grrrrrrrrrrl” meme. It speaks wonders to our culture that the term innocence can mean “not a feminism imbibed game playing cunt” aka the way it’s supposed to be. As you are fond of saying, the feminine does indeed attract the masculine.
I just got a huge rush of nostalgia reliving this experience.
ps- I’ll try and get my field report out, it was a pretty crazy night. But, the fingers aren’t really commanding the keyboard right now and my mind is slush. It took way too much effort just to write this comment. I think I need a nap.
collegeslacker
/ March 26, 2011Want to elaborate for a second, just had another thought-
Regarding the fact that you can overgame these girls and how she threw me for a loop: There is that saying “never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.” Hanlon’s Razorand and all.
Isn’t it kind of that way when dealing feminine girls? “Never ascribe to alterior motives that which can be explained by her rare form of femininity”. Once I realized that she was just old fashioned feminine, all of our interactions took on a different light to me. Feminine girls are so rare that at first it seemed like she was acting weird, but that is just because our culture has demonized this way of behaving.
Funny thing, I had this epiphany with a girl I’ve been trying for for awhile. I’ll elaborate more in the up and coming post, but basically her friend sat me down and gave me a bit of that “heart to heart” about this girl and the reasons for some of her odd behavior suddenly made since. Basically, she’s just such a sweet girl and I was overgaming her.
collegeslacker
/ March 26, 2011made sense* damnit
Yvette Francino
/ March 27, 2011Just popped over to see what “gaming” advice you were passing along these days. I was pleased to see you say:
“I just felt that Gaming a woman like this would be somehow cheap and tacky, beneath her and me alike.”
It shows that you realize that “Gaming a woman” is disrespectful. Apparently you are saving this “cheap, tacky behavoir” (your words) for other women who perhaps are playing their own games. Why do you want someone like that? Why don’t you always look for classy women and realize that no one deserves disrespectful “game”?
theprivateman
/ March 27, 2011There are far too few women like this.
Given her age and her Southern upbringing, she likely avoided drinking the kool-aid of “you go grrl!” and also avoided falling into the trap of modern expectations where women must be bossy, domineering, and generally unattractive in the context of dating and relationships.
Eileen is extraordinarily and exceedingly rare.
Disrespectful Game – asshole Game, as it’s called – is reserved for the a completely different type of female and sadly, a much more common one.
Game doesn’t have to be disrespectful. Pedestalization is far more disrespectful because it infantilizes women and doesn’t give them full agency and responsibility in their lives.
Yvette Francino
/ March 27, 2011Well, I have not studied all the “games” of this sort other than what I’ve read in your blog, but it seems to me that if a type of woman is unattractive to you then there would be no reason to play a game with her at all. Why don’t you spend your time finding the woman who you find attractive and classy, like Eileen, and just be yourself?
I expect most confident women will not want to be around men who are playing the kind of “games” that you promote.
By the way, I did find a site today that was a guy advising men against gaming: http://cupidsdatingtips.com/about/
NMH
/ March 27, 2011Its simply a numbers game, princess. There are extremely few women that are physically attractive and with whom you can expose your true-self to: meaning, you can be perfectly honest with who you are, exposing any weaknesses as you may have, and still be sexually attractive to her. You yourself, princess, confessed on HMS of losing the gina tingle so easily for men. Its not hard to figure out why: because these men (after paying for your dinner, no doubt) exposed their true selves to you, which are often not as self assured and successful as you need to have the never ending gina tingle.
So the only choices an average man has is this; you can be celibate, or you can find a physically attractive women whose need for strength and whose potential bitchery can be controlled by game. Hence, game is an absolute necessity for dealing with women like you. Its not our fault that we game, its your fault, because of your entilement and constant need for excitement.
Now run along, princess. Have you gotten a cat yet?
Yvette Francino
/ March 27, 2011Hi NMH,
You really are all hung up on the “gina tingle” thing, eh? And I guess you are trying to insult me (or intimidate me?) by calling me “princess,” but I’m just finding it kind of amusing.
I’m also curious about whether you are thinking it’s a bad thing or a good thing for a guy to pay for the date. It sounds like this “game” theory is quite down on women who are independent, yet here it sounds like you’re bitter about paying if it won’t end up in a relationship. Which is it?
(Personally, I think the person who asks someone out should pay for both and it would be nice for the other to reciprocate the next time.)
Workshy Joe
/ March 27, 2011Yvette, please Google the term “Shit Test” and then tell me that men don’t need Game.
All women do it. Only a small number will hold their hand up to it.
Yvette Francino
/ March 27, 2011Hi Joe,
Thanks, yeah that helped explained a lot of the lingo of all this “Gaming.”
I write a lot about relationships so I’m really interested and curious about this stuff. I have a book: The Laptop Dancer Diaries and also just got a new gig as the Boulder Dating Advisor at examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/dating-advice-in-boulder/yvette-francino. Also a blog.. I welcome you gamers to come comment, though, as The Private Man has once said, “It’s out of the ‘manosphere.” and others are bound to disagree with you on this theory…
I love to flirt, which I suppose in some ways is a game. And I do think if a guy has confidence, it shows. It’s not really something people can fake too well, and the more experience they have with dating, the more confident and comfortable around women they seem to be, and that’s attractive.
However, it’s a huge turnoff to me when someone tries to impress me with money or by trying to act cool or be someone they aren’t. And it’s especially a turnoff when they’re disrespectful. The most attractive men are those who smile, who flirt, who have a good sense of humor, and who treat women with respect.
Now, of course, I know a lot of women are out there playing their own “games” and it is interesting to read about all this “game theory.” But it seems to me, that this game is all about sex, not about having a real relationship. Those are two very different objectives.
If the objective is sex with an attractive woman then maybe this game stuff will work.
If the objective is a real relationship with an attractive woman, my guess is you are going to be out of luck. To have a real relationship, you need to expose your real self. That doesn’t mean exposing all your insecurities on the first date… But eventually, you need to be yourself. Gain enough confidence so that all you need to be is your true self and you’ll attract women for who you are, not for who you’re pretending to be.
collegeslacker
/ March 27, 2011Yvette,
“Now, of course, I know a lot of women are out there playing their own “games”
Women are always playing games, plain and simple. Game helps men who haven’t figured that out yet to get with the program.
As for your desire for confident, flirty men, is every man like that? No, not by a longshot. Game helps the unconfident men gain confidence by discovering how a man should behave (always be leading, be strong, how to flirt properly, don’t be needy, etc.).
As to your contention that Game is only for sex and not “real” relationships, think about all the fun and successful relationships you may have had in your life. None of them were with needy, highly emotional, supplicating men. Guaranteed. They had Game, learned or natural. As Roissy tweeted awhile back, and I’m paraphrasing, would it help the haters understand Game if they changed it’s name to charisma?
Yvette Francino
/ March 27, 2011Hi collegeslacker,
There are parts of this “game” which are charming and attract women, for sure. As I’ve always said confidence is very sexy. However, the parts that I disagree with are the parts in which women are treated disrespectfully. It seems that you all are aware that “gaming” behavior is “cheap and tacky” (as Private Man puts it) but feel that women deserve it because they are playing games as well. Aren’t you all just stooping down to the level of the people you’re criticizing? And why are you interested in having a relationship with someone who you feel is so unworthy?
Women are attracted to confident, charismatic men, NOT arrogant, disrespectful men.
CSPB
/ March 28, 2011Yvette,
A key to understanding Game is to study what you are talking about.. Your terminology shows you to be dismissive. You use phrasing like; this game, gaming and gamer.
Playing games means something different than using Game. A gamer is a guy that plays video games. Game Theory is a mathematical concept. You admitted that you “have not studied all the games of this sort. There is only one Game and it has many facets and tenents, but using confusing terminology will only serve to keep you confused and cause you to confuse others.
You said you disagree with parts of Game. It that because you think those aspects don’t work, shouldn’t work, or that those aspects are used for illicit purposes with irresponsible women? If Game is so transparent and if women reject men that are arrogant and disrespectful, then it seems there is no issue at all. Men stop doing things that don’t work. If it doesn’t work, then don’t worry about it. If it works then try and understand the dynamics of why it works from both the perspective of men and women.
theprivateman
/ March 28, 2011This is absolutely true and Yvette, as a dating adviser, has an ethical duty to give realistic and truthful advice to both men and women. If she starts in the with conventional wisdom based on social expectations, she’s going to be traipsing down the lane to the land of epic fail.
Game works, it’s just that simple. Game teaches men to be confident and charismatic, those exact same characteristics that Yvette and the vast majority of women find attractive in men. It would make far more logical sense for Yvette to support Game just as Susan Walsh does.
Already in her comments here she used at least two logical fallacies and readers here would have certainly spotted those. Hint: she used the word “bitter”.
Yvette, please read this website very, very carefully if you want to be taken seriously in the Manosphere.
Yvette Francino
/ March 28, 2011Cool. Thanks for pointing me to some references. I do want to read and understand it and use the proper terminology.
I’m only speaking from what I’ve read primarily here on this blog. While definitely I agree with some of it, it does sound (at least from what I’ve read here) as though it can be very manipulative, disingenuous and disrespectful, which are things which I think are harmful to relationships and certainly should not be recommended as a dating strategy.
I think men (and women) who are confident and charismatic will go far, not just in dating, but in life. However, I think that that does not mean trying to act like you are “better” than the person you are trying to relate to. You both need to appreciate what the other brings to the relationship.
collegeslacker
/ March 28, 2011Here, perhaps this will help you understand:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/relationship-game-week-a-readers-journey/
This is Dave from Hawaii’s now widely disseminated story of how he saved his faltering marriage using Game. If any of what he did strikes you as disrespectful, disingenuous, or manipulative, then you may never comprehend Game.
Side Note: If you decide to continue on through Roissy’s archives, which I recommend, be aware that he is very blunt and can be very vulgar.
Paige
/ March 28, 2011It is good to know that a 60 year old woman is still capable of leaving an impression with a 50 year old man.
theprivateman
/ March 28, 2011The feminine attracts the masculine.
meinto
/ May 31, 2011In college I used to joke about moving to Italy when I got old because younger men were not adverse to being seen with older women, as they were here in Amierca.
Now that I actually AM an older woman in America, it amazes – and saddens – me how many younger men are attracted to me. I’m talking 15-20 years younger than myself.
At first it was a marvelous ego boost, at age 48 to have a 28 year old attracted to me. Hairy chested and rock hard from his high school football years, his stubbornly 1950′s sensibilities relegated him to “Al Bundy” appeal with women his own age.
I wasn’t attracted to that type either, in my younger days, but I find the older I get the more I enjoy men being men, as I have enjoyed being a woman.
My intention was only to spend some short happy times together, then step aside for him to find a wife, have beautiful kids and remember me fondly as I “disappeared” somewhere far away into old age. ( This conclusion came after the process of elimination occurred: was he “using” me to get ahead on the job? For my money? Was something “wrong” with him I was unaware of, other than his blatant 50′s manhood? Why was such a young good looking man attracted to little OLD me?)
After hearing some of his “war” stories I came to realize how much he appreciated being with someone he could trust. Someone he could be himself with. Someone uncritical, undemanding…someone competely on his side.
meinto
/ May 31, 2011cont…
At first I selfishly enjoyed our time together. I avoided being seen in public with him, thinking he would be ‘embarassed” to be seen with an old lady. I thought he was just being “nice” when he expressed otherwise.
The awful day came when a young women his own age showed strong interest in him. I smiled and encouraged him to ask her out, even though my insides were shredding. I remember taking long drives at sunset, trying to picture myself without him in my life…I tried to envision him marrying and pitching a baseball to his little boy. Loving him enough to want those wonderful things for him while grieving my own loss.
After 6 years I realized it wouldn’t happen if I didn’t back off. I was 54, horrified that life’s cruelties like menopause, grey hair, wrinkles and sags could happen even to such an undeserving person like me.
It was rough. Terse angry phone calls, text messages, tears in the night. “Don’t play the “OLD” card on me!” his sense of humor devastates me still.
I still hear from him from time to time…saw you on Facebook, your grandchild looks just like you…
I’m old…and he’s still so young.